Author Topic: Handi Carbine project..Ideas? (Read 3966 times)

myarmor · « **on:** April 14, 2006, 01:35:20 AM »

Personally I love long barrels.
But as of late I have been entertaining an idea of making a carbine out of one of my little Handi's. Chosing a caliber, barrel contour, and having a Smith cut it down and recrown it.
Not like I need anymore projects, but this one would require less of me than my other ones.

So I'm looking for ideas here.

-What is the absolute sure minimum legal length for a rifle barrel?
I am pretty sure it's 16".

-Caliber...Which caliber would you use and why? I am looking at 3 things here.
1- Which caliber would give up the least performance to a shorter barrel length?
2- Which caliber, with this in mind, would have the better BC's in bullet selections?
3- Given NEF's selection of barrels, from standard contour to Bull Barrels, which would you have cut down and crowned?

Purpose of this? All around general shooting. Hunting, plinking, bench every now and then. Balance and Handiness is the main selling points for this project to me.

I have a good idea of what I am leaning towards, but I'm interested in what everyones ideas are here, so I'll get wait and get some feedback before I post it.
-Aaron

dodd3 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:11:28 AM »

Aaron if it was me i would go for the 30/30 they make dam fine carbines,and have the barrel 18 inches still nice and handy.
bernie

pascalp · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:11:42 AM »

Hangun cartridges seems to be first choice. They are used to work in short barrel.
If you want rifle cartriges, look at those used by silhouette shooter in their handgun (22H, 32-20, 30-30, ...). If it works for them, you may be able to get an efficient reload for your 16".
If you want something rocknroll a 45-70 maybe enough.

A lot of possibilities, maybe avoid caliber which work only with slow powder, you will get a flame thrower.

One of my current project is a T/C 10" 32-20, stock carbine and fixed suppressor. Could seem strange, but for local regulation that's good for range use.
I won't cut one of my NEF, i had enough pain to grab one time to time.

I'll choose a 30-30 with a 180gr

Datil · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:54:41 AM »

MY thoughts do not cut barrel shorter than 16 1/2 inch, in case
ypu run into cop with a bad tape measure.
What I did for a truck rifle is I got a super lite 223 rifle,
sent the barrel to Wayne York at oregangunsmithing,
Had him rebore recamber to 25-35! Kept the 20 in
barrel, With cut rifling it a shooter, Handy handi. :-D
This some that I have wanted for 30 years. It nearly 600
dollars. But it is my money amd I happy ol' dog.
Marv.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2006, 04:49:37 AM »

Quote

Balance and Handiness is the main selling points for this project to me.

Then are you really sure you want to go whittling a barrel back?

The 30-30 would be a fair one to start..but I would lean to the straight walled cases myself..less muzzle blast when trying to drive them to top velocity from a shorter barrel...

The 44mag would be nice if you could get one that is in specs....I have absolutly no use for one that isn't...

The 357 mag usually is in specs..and would be a interesting project barrel for me and one worth considering..a-lot can be done with it as well for little money..

The 45-70 is another great choice...there isn't a great deal of velocity lost between 18" and 24"barrels...and would probably be my main choice if I were ever to cut one back..not that I ever would....I've owned too many carbine lenght rifles..with the short barrels..and the 357 and the 45-70 are the only ones that didn't lack the velocity I wanted from them... when loaded properly..but they never really balanced as good as a full lenght rifle and never had that "between the hands feel " my other rifles have..The one that comes close is my Marlin 1895GS..it rocks with it's 18-1/2" barrel...(on both ends.. :wink: )

Good Luck with your project

Mac

mt3030 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2006, 05:17:16 AM »

Here are two of my Handi Carbines I've put together. The 30-30 was cut to 18 inches and originally had a Williams receiver rear sight monted. Later had the Burris 2x7 mounted. Another was the H&R Shikari 45-70. It was cut to 20 inches. It wears a extended eye relief 2.75x so a hammer extension is not necessary, and allows the scope to be mounted lower. Both have made very good truck guns, although I do prefer the 30-30. It loves both Winchester Silver-tip loads and Hornady 150 SST reloads.

I've also built 357 Mag and 223 Carbines, both cut to 16.5 inches. Both were good projects in their own right, just didn't serve my needs as well as expected. I ended up going to an AR15-M4 and a Marlin lever action for dependability and firepower.

Choose your caliber depending on the area you shoot/hunt in, and game intended. Like already mentioned, if it was not for the loose bores I would also do a 44 Mag. If I can find an old H&R Topper or early SB2 (44 Mag)with cut rifling, I will do one.

Just some ideas. Hope this helps.

Wally

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2006, 06:38:10 AM »

Through pure luck and opportunity I became the proud owner of a 19" .280 Remington barrel (thanks lik2hunt!!). I have had it recrowned and now it is my ultimate truck gun. It shoots well enough for anything I hunt and at any reasonable distances. The bullet selection is enormus (.284/7mm) and recoil is nothing at all. It might just be a bit noisy, hence the name "Thunderboomer" but well worth each and every decibel. I would suggest a 7mm, either the 7mm-08 or .280 cut to your desired length, as long as it's over 16" of course. I would personally not recommend going under 18" unless there is a pressing need to do so. With these single shot actions we are saving at least 4-5" in overall length from the start. All thart being said the 30-30 would be a great choice also, especially in a single shot where pointed bullets can be easily used, the 30-30 has the added advantage of relitively cheap ammo everywhere. Depending on what you want it for a standard contour .223 barrel cut to 16.25" also has a lot going for it....<><.... :grin:

GrampaMike · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2006, 07:54:26 AM »

Three come to mine...

357 Mag, 44 Mag and 7.62x39mm.
All made to shoot in shorter barrels.

Mike

motordog80 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:32:26 AM »

What about a 30-06?

Uncle Ji · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:44:12 AM »

The 357 magnum's optimum length of barrel is just at around 16" so any longer and you actually stat losing velocity though small in crements. The main advantage in going any longer is sight radius. Also I believe the FEDs requires a total length of 26" for a rifle so just make sure if you add a shorter style butt stock that you not go below this minimum length. Here's a couple interesting articles related to shortening a Handi barrel, and ammo performance in barrels in 357 mag 16" vs 22":

http://www.milesfortis.us/church/akc02.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

Dean van Praotl · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:48:07 PM »

I'm pretty sure you're right about the 16 inch minimum for a rifle. Also agree with suggestions to add a little for the cop's tape measure.

I hunt with a 14" Contender in 30-30 (pistol, of course.) It works fine, but there's a bit of powder that don't burn until it exits the muzzle. I think if I were building a carbine, I'd keep the barrel 18 to 20 inches. For caliber, I'd go with either 30-30 or 44 mag.

myarmor · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:56:35 PM »

Good feedback so far, thanks fellas and keep it coming. I had a few crazy ideas for caliber selections.
I already have a 243 standard contour barrel, that could be an easy canidate.
But I am trying to simplify my life and calibers that I reload for.
My 308 and 270 are right now at the top of my list of reloading calibers.

Want a crazy idea? How about a 308 Bull Barrel cut back to 17" :grin: ? Not the lightest, but it's a super stiff barrel. Also a shorter barrel wouldn't hurt the performance as bad as other calibers benefiting from longer barrels, like the 30-06. Different too.
Though I admit it would make for a decent flame thrower

and muzzle blast, and it would be louder.

A shortend 223 I like the idea of too, but I would like to be able to legally take deer with it so that kinda rules that out.

Never thought much about the Ol' 30-30. I like the tried and true little guy, but I personally would rather have the added performance of a 308 or 30-06.

And Thanks for the pics mt3030, both are nice and are what I have in mind. :agree:

hunman55 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:54:54 PM »

:grin: For my own use in a 16 1/2 in carbine, it would be 30-30 or 44mag. Your uses may be different. Range is a consideration. For longer ranges, the 308 would seem better. Just do it and suit yourself. Hunman55

Couger · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:44:29 PM »

MYARMOR .......

Did you say what you'd be using your 'carbine' for?

Truck gun?

Camp gun?

Backpacking gun?

Deer 'special' for shooting from a tree stand?

Are you a reloader? If so ......

Why not get a .357 Mag bbl and have it rechambered to .357 MAX? With 200 grain bullets (and 180's) performance that duplicates the .35 Remington looks possible. Not sure about the Speer 220 bullet.

What has always appealed to me about the .357 Max is its ability to shoot .38 Spec and .357 Mag fodder, but loaded to potential with 180's or 200's it'll handily kill deer inside of 100 yards.

Otherwise if the .44 Mags weren't overbore, or you didn't mind chopping a 7.62X39 bbl, those sound good too.

Of course, what about instead cutting the bbl at 18"? (or even 20"?) Your choices then improve tremendously. And a Handi-R. is already fairly compact.

And there are the 10-15" Contender and Encore handguns too.

myarmor · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2006, 03:11:59 AM »

A 357 isn't a bad idea, not at all. Plus I have been looking for a reason to pick up one for awhile now...humm...
I have read many happy Max owners, and that would make for a very versitle carbine.

I also have always liked the idea of the 7.62x39 as well. But the bullet selection isn't the best of the bunch.

aulrich · « **Reply #15 on:** April 15, 2006, 08:00:25 AM »

Would a "carbined" version of a handi develop the accuracy problems that can be a problem to the ultra light handi's. If not why.

cpj · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2006, 08:53:42 AM »

500 smith and wesson, or the 44 mag.

Sourdough · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2006, 09:04:41 AM »

I made a carbine using the .35 Whelen cartridge, with an 18" barrel. I wanted something small for going into the brush, and convient in the track rig. I also did not want a scope so I put a williams reciever peep site on it. Loved it, shot nice and killed a Grizzly Bear the first time I took it out.

Then------- the wife--------- seen it. Next thing I knew the stock had been cut down, and it was relocated to her gun vault. Lost another one to the little lady.

mt3030 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2006, 09:49:44 AM »

aulrich:

All four of my Handi Carbines were tested before and after being cut off. I could see no difference. If anything the 223 improved slightly going from 24 inches to 16.5. The 357, 30-30 and 45-70 showed no changes. Why? I don't know.

Wally

poncaguy · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2006, 11:42:28 AM »

7mm-08............works greatin my 15" Encore pistol, so.......

aulrich · « **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2006, 11:54:43 AM »

I may have missed something along the way, but was not one of the theorys behind the finickyness of the ultra-light model is that the lower barrel wieght makes latch up a little less secure, or more prone to erratice vibration.

Though it seems the proof is in the pudding judging by the results.

myarmor · « **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2006, 01:36:33 PM »

The contour of the lightweight barrels are thinner too, if I am not mistaken, to shave off some more weight.
There is something to be said for shorter stiff barrels, with the key word stiff. I haven't owned a Lightweight so I don't know, but like everyone else I have heard about the time guys have had trying to get them to shoot. However all Superlight models do wear synthetic stocks. Something that can be difficult to working out the bugs as opposed to wood stocks. These are easier to work with, for me at least. I do know some here have good sucess with synthetic's on a Handi. I just find it easler to work with wood on these little guys.

Poncaguy, MSP, I also considered the 280 and 7-08. I like 7mm's, cause you have an absolute great choice of bullets to reload for and not to mention some incrediable BC's.
I couldn't bring myself to cut down a beautiful 26" 280 :x
But I have no doubt that it's a doozy. :toast:
If I where to use a 7mm, I would take a 7-08. Humm..all good suggestions.
Lets add this to the mix:
If this where your project, what would it look like? Caliber, stocks, and optics?-optional

If you have any pics and have done a project lke this, Handi, TC, or Bolt, please post them. I would greatly appreciate it. After all I am looking for ideas here :wink:

Couger · « **Reply #22 on:** April 15, 2006, 02:43:22 PM »

"If this was my project .................!?"

Funny how you asked this Q. I was going to come back and offer the following ......

I have a .308 Survivor I'm going to cannibalize (for the stock set) and use as a test-bed (for the .308 cart) and add a collection of barrels to. One will be a .30/06 Ultra - that I'll equip with a McAce .308 adpater (to shoot .308 Win in my '06 chamber).

When I'm done using the 22" .308 HB barrel, I've considered, "will I keep it?" - or sell it?

I've thought about using it (modified most likely) as a "tree stand/whitetail" barrel exclusively. But in what cartridge? .308W? Or even .358W? NO WAY would I choose the "gay" .338 Federal over the .358.

If I kept my .308 barrel, I've thought about getting it rebored to to .358 Winchester or .338/06. I've also considered the possibilty of cutting a .358W HB to 20 inches (nothing shorter than 18) to pack to the tree stand for whitetails that live in eastern WA and northern ID.

If I decided to leave it in .308 Winnie, I might still cut it to 20 inches (but never shorter than 18). I want my SB2 "package" to be VERY VERSATILE! Which I hope will include the .22 K-Hornet, .223R, .280R, 12 gauge and .45-70.

Ken Waters who used to write for Handloader/Rifle magazines (the "Petloads" column") has a ".30-30/06" load that he lists (in a reloading book of ther same name - "Petloads."). I don't know why a competent reloader couldn't come up with a ".30-30/08" load, or other .30 caliber loadings that duplicate .300 Savage or .30-40 Krag performance. Only real differences I see between those rounds (on paper) are velocities!

What could an 18" .308W Handi-carbine do? Or 20" version of that set-up? How much performance would one give up with 18"? I think the difference between 20 and 22 inches would be negligible - even when shooting at an elk with 165-180 grn bullets. But 18 inches? 16 inches is tooooooo short!

I have a hard time "stomaching" a .308W in a barrel shorter than 18 inches! I once owned a DSA58 FAL with a 16.25" bbl, which I sold!

I already indicated I have interests in the .357 Max (for a cache or survivalist package, as the appeal to shoot pistol ammo is very big!), but the .358W is no slouche either.

Also, if you cast lead bullets, that opens a whole 'nuther hobby/can-o-worms as well!

Since I live in the West and will return to the Rocky Mtns (elk country!), its hard to ignore the need for a cartridge to slay one of those beasts. :wink:

What about a 20 inch or even 18 inch .45/70?

mt3030 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 15, 2006, 03:07:15 PM »

Couger:

Quote/:One will be a .30/06 Ultra - that I'll equip with a McAce .308 adpater (to shoot .308 Win in my '06 chamber). Unquote/.

If you find an adapter for sale that claims to allow you to shoot 308 Winchester ammo in your 30-06 Springfield chambered rifle, do not reach for your money. It will never work.

And yes, my 20 inch 45-70 Handi works very well. (See previous post)

Wally

Couger · « **Reply #24 on:** April 15, 2006, 04:17:53 PM »

MT3030 .....

Are you familiar with McAce Sports out of Anchorage, AK?

I've used a couple of their adapters (.32ACP in .308, and .30/06) and they work okay.

Ace Dube who owns the Co., offers a 'chamber insert' that fits in a .30/06 chamber, with a little amount of blue locktite - allowing safe dischage of a .308W in a .30/06.

This isn't a "new" idea. Its what the US NAVY did with their M1 Garands after WWII, rather than pay for rebarrel jobs for the shorter cart.

Mr Dube also claims to offer similar "inserts" for shooting the 7.62X39 in the .30/06, and also .308W chambers.

McAce offers a long list of chamber adapters that allow one to shoot the .22LR or .22WMR in several .224 cal carts; the .32ACP, .30carb to be shot in the .30-30, .308W, 30/06 and others.

They even offer chamber/barrel adapters for shooting the .45/70 in the 12 gauge and other bores. :wink:

And is it safe to shoot a .311-.313 caliber bullet in a .308 barrel?

Gun writers and reloading experts (I actually trust to know what they're talking about!) have said its okay to shoot the 7.62X39 in the .308 bores, altho accuracy suffers and the bore invariably gets worn faster.

I trust the McAce devices (barrel inserts and well as chamber adapter/inserts) that I've owned, shot or known others to use.

Some of these devices work really well, and some not as well as others.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** April 15, 2006, 05:30:43 PM »

IIRC, MCA/Ace chamber adapters won't work in a Handi for some calibers unless you figure a way to eject the spent case since the adapter stays in the chamber until removed with a broken case extractor. Back to the drop-the-drill-rod-down-the-bore method of case removal, gives a new meaning to a single shot!!! :-D :-D :-D

Tim

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

myarmor · « **Reply #26 on:** April 15, 2006, 05:59:13 PM »

Just to clarify, the main reason I brought up 16" was as a referance point to legal limits. I'm throwing ideas around, that's why I am asking. And I do appreciate the feedback. Again, this would be a short compact rifle with truck gun idea, I want a little range with the caliber, but doesn't have to be extreme ranges. Versitility I am BIG on, thus another appeal of the Handi, huh? :grin:
Kinda lik'n the 35 Whelen idea, as well as the 30-06 there Sourdough. But they are cartridges that gets robbed of a lot of performance when shortened, IMHO. In truthfulness as do most all cartridges.
Sorry bout the wife claiming yours though

I do see the appeal of straight wall cartridges for this kind of project.

44Mag-I love the round, hate the bore sizing issues. I don't cast, and don't really want to go into all that. I already have my hands full with other things than to take all that on. Though I am sure it could be a ton of fun, I'll pass. :noway:

45-70-Again, great round. Handy and powerful. But for me, little overkill on my purpose for this rifle. Same for the 500S&W. For thumper, close quarters, I'll just take my Tracker 1 barrel loaded for slugs.
So for my needs :noway:

357-Here I do see an advantage. Especially with one reamed out to 357Max. Added versitility of 357Mags, and 38 Specials, not to mention cost of ammo and easy to load for. This is in the running for a possibility. Like I said, I've been wanting one of these anyway :oops: :grin: :agree:

7.62x39-I'm a fan. Limited bullet selection though. As well as more size issues of a different nature. From .311 to the more widely used .308 bullet diameter. Small but important point to consider in all this and for my needs. So for me.. :noway:

30-30-Well here is another that I like the idea of. Versitility of great bullet selection, and from all makers.
So here I say... :| humm..maybe.

308-I LOVE the 308 Winchester! Excellent cartridge, is an understatment in my book. High pressure load and ammo offerings are abundant.
Added to that Tons of load data, and a great performer. :agree:

7-08- The 7mm's continue to gain popularity and form all areas of shooting. Excellent BC's and wide selection, make it another good contender. Though I would like to hear from more 7-08 Handi owners. There's not many reports from what I can recall, mostly 280's.
So for 7-08 I say.. :agree:

So far just a few of my conclusions and perspectives

Couger · « **Reply #27 on:** April 15, 2006, 06:45:05 PM »

Why doesn't NEF offer a standard contour 7mm-08? And instead insist on foisting a "liteweight" choice on everyone?

As for the 7.62X39, could a reloader make 100-yd fodder with 150-174 grn bullets? Just how much velocity does one need for a 100-yd shooter?

FWIW, I'm also a .280R fan - versus the 7mm-08 or 7mm RM (also both excellent carts).

What about getting a 22 or 24 inch .243 bull barrel and reboring to 7mm-08? And chopping it at 19-20 inches? With 9 or 10" twist rate?

I forgot to mention much earlier, NEF uses a 1-in-18.25-inch twist rate for their .357 mangle-um barrel, which is definitely slow for .358 bullets over 180-200 grains in the .35 cartridges discussed. Personally I'd prefer a 1-12 or 1-14 inch twist in the .357 Max or .358W.

handirifle · « **Reply #28 on:** April 15, 2006, 07:03:19 PM »

How about something different, like a 38-55 or 30-30 AI. The AI would give a nice boost in velocity without moving up to the full power/noise/recoil of a 308. Mucho ammo availability if you ran out of AI stuff.

If not the a custom of say a 7-30 waters. Designed for handguns it would excell in an 16-18" rifle.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** April 15, 2006, 07:42:40 PM »

Quote from: Couger

Why doesn't NEF offer a standard contour 7mm-08? And instead insist on foisting a "liteweight" choice on everyone?

the 7mm-08 barrel #707 is a standard contour(I've got one), the accessory barrel list online has been listed incorrectly for quite a while, still is!! Both the 2006 catalog and 2005 Acc barrel list pamplet show it as a standard contour, also.

Tim