Author Topic: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun  (Read 927 times)

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Offline Don Krag

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neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« on: January 10, 2007, 06:40:46 AM »
This is my ultimate goal. It's a gun made around 1500 for Maximillian and used in the battle of Dormach. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any info on this particular piece as to bore size or any other material/dimensions. Anyone have any cannon books with info on this one? This pic is from Dudley Pope's "Guns".





Here's another few pics for your viewing pleasure. The first one is a small cannon heavily decorated with brass in relief. The interesting thing is it's construction. They used 10 sections and formed cones on each end, fit them together, then wrapped brass rings around the joints. Kinda neat....but I'm not sure I'd want to be standing near it when fired! I'm guessing it was more a ceremonial peice. It's currently housed in the main room of the Doges Palace in Venice. The last pic is the predecessor to the Puckle gun. This one uses a rotary breech with five shots, but was 100 years earlier than Puckle's gun.



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Offline GGaskill

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2007, 09:15:28 AM »
Making some SWAGs (semi-wild-ass-guesses) about the picture, assuming the wheels are 5' in diameter (a reasonable guess as US Civil War field piece wheels were 57" in diameter), the barrel estimates at about 11' long, which seems long even considering that barrels were 25 to 30 calibers in length in those days.  6 pounder was a common field piece caliber even up to the US Models of 1841, so that would be my guess for caliber. 

Does the book not give the location of the gun in the picture?  Tracking down the gun would be my first step.
GG
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Offline Don Krag

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2007, 11:18:42 AM »
I didn't see a reference to the museum for this particular piece. Good idea, I have some friends at the NY Met and Higgins museums with the arms and armour that might would know where it is, or at least be able to more readily find out, then I could request the info.

Most of the medieval wheels were proportioned much smaller than CW era items. I would guess ~ 30" on the wheels and a bore around 2" with a barrel length of ~4-5' just based on other similar pieces. That would be consistent with the wood grain (growth rings on butt end of carraige) evident in the actual picture (can't really see it in the small scanned pic) that indicates about 10-12" thick under the breech section. There's some very similar bronze artillery he had in his battery as well, so I can't even say for sure it's iron, though. I'm wanting to have the basics constructed by the end of August, but that may be wishful thinking givin my usual work rate in the shop.
Don "Krag" Halter
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Offline dominick

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2007, 11:43:44 AM »
I think the narrow single trail is rare for that time period . Most cannons of that era were twin trail or have a very wide single trail

Offline Don Krag

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2007, 12:04:26 PM »
There's a couple with very similar shaped barrels to this that use the twin trail. There's quite few that are single trail, but usually have it split where the barrel rests on a section that opens up like a hinge ith the lower portion dropping down to adjust the height/trajectory of the barrel as opposed to the more modern look of this one. I haven't been able to see any rhyme or reason as to when they used the twin trail vs the single. It seems all different bores and lengths were done on both although the twin certainly seems to show up more often in illuminations. This one's uniqueness was kind of what made it stand out to me.

This one has some oddities if you look close. I don't see anywhere that it hinges like most single trails, but there are metal bands that look to band together an upper portion and a lower portion separately. Yet, just behind them are bands going around the whole assembly that would prevent any movement. Nor is there anywherte for the heighth gauge/pin to have been placed except the hole in the terminal end of the trail.

Of course, this whole carraige could be a remake from several hundred years later, or even more recent, and not resemble the original whatsoever. :P




Edited to add: Hah, it turns out my copy of "Guns" is missing one of the last pages. Of course, that page is all the photo credits. I got a scanned copy of the credits. The cannon is from the Bernisches Historisches Museum. Looks like they have quite a nice collection of early artillery. I'll definitely be getting some documents from them!
Don "Krag" Halter
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2007, 08:34:07 PM »
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline dominick

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2007, 01:14:07 PM »
         ..
Quote
. it turns out my copy of "Guns" is missing one of the last pages.


  Is that book titled,  Guns, An Illustrated History of Artillery,  by Edita  Lausanne.  New York Graphic Society,  1971?

   If so and you want, I can send you the missing pages.  Dom

Offline Cannonmaker

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2007, 04:24:33 PM »
From the year 1500 to now has had a lot of impovements.  The Hexagon breach is notable.  If the carrage is of the oringal design, the piece would be a challange to fire.  The trunions don't look to be mounted too well,  just how is the tube embeded into the stock?
good luck with you project. 

Rick
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Offline Don Krag

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 06:49:41 AM »
Dom,
This is "Guns" by Dudley Pope. Someone on another forum already sent me a scan of the last two pages, but thanks for the offer!


The octagonal section tapering to the smooth round with the fancy muzzle look very similar to a lot of the Dutch matchlock muskets. The shape is unique from what I've seen on this era's artillery. Another reason I'd love to have a working model! The mating to the carraige leaves a lot to be desired! The fact that the barrel just seems to have been tossed onto the carraige makes me think it was done at a later time just for show. The trunions seem to be held down by a single band of about 16 ga metal. It'll be interesting hearing what the museum can provide in the way of construction detail. I contaceted the museum's medieval collection curator, but haven't heard back yet.
Don "Krag" Halter
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Offline copdoc

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Re: neat pics and a request for info on a particular gun
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 05:18:33 PM »
This is one I want to reproduce also.  I'll look but don't think I ever found bore or length but somewhere I have a color picture. I thought it might have a "wedge" through a block on the bbl. cast in the octagonal part.  I agree the mounting looks flimsy, but this is a very early gun.

 Look at my Bugundian howitzer and replica Kufstein mortar. The Kufstein a direct copy from "Guns" by Dudley Pope but about 85% scale.  For the Burgundian howitzer I used the back pages and combined several guns to match my material . 

Do you have any other pics of the early repeater.  I have drawn some rough plans for the Puckle and was going to make the St Petersburg version even though it dissappeared.  It is a smaller bore and iron I believe.  I has been 5-6 yrs since I looked at them.