Author Topic: Considering a handi rifle for my 11 yr old son 1st deer gun. 308 win. comments (Read 2685 times)

George K · « **on:** April 11, 2007, 12:04:41 PM »

Folks, I'm new to this forum. I am considering buying a handi rifle for my son. I think the 308 win is the best choice. I don't feel a 243 is the best choice for a child because of accuracy issues related to excitement. My son has shot the managed recoil rounds from my gun and is ok with them. Any comments or recommendations would be greatly appricated. Can I get a youth model in 308? If not where can I get a shorter stock?

Thanks
George K

darat100 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 11, 2007, 12:32:18 PM »

George

Is really ok with the recoil or is saying he is so he can go hunting? 308 is a pretty good thump for an 11 year old. I have never shot the 308 reduced recoil load, so I have no idea what they feel like. I just know I started out on a 30-06 as a youngster and developed a terrible flinch that took years to fix when I got older because it was too much for me. You might consider a 30-30 or 7.62x39. Just a couple of thoughts. I have finally realized I am not a bad shot, just needed to learn to shoot instead of run from the gun. Just my two cents.

Roudy · « **Reply #2 on:** April 11, 2007, 12:34:41 PM »

George,
You can see what's available at this web site http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/youth.aspx

The youth model doesn't appear to be sold in .308 and has a length of pull of 11 3/4 inches where the regular Handi rifle has a length of pull of 14 1/4 inches. The youth model comes in 7mm/08 which would make a dandy hunting round for a youngster.

Roudy

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 11, 2007, 12:44:52 PM »

Welcome aboard, George!! Don't you mean the 7mm-08 Youth Handi? That's what you posted at AR in the Single Shot forum.

Tim

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #4 on:** April 11, 2007, 01:17:50 PM »

I say if you can get the 7mm-08 in the youth that would also be my choice.

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #5 on:** April 11, 2007, 03:45:12 PM »

For a first deer rifle ,my vote goes to the 30-30. It is plenty powerful enough for deer and black bear ,with a lot less muzzle blast and recoil. Ammo costs less also which allows for more practice sessions at the range. Darat100 makes a very good point, developing a flinch at 11 could take a long time to correct and would make for a not so good hunting expierence. It's much more important that he have a rifle that he is comfortable with and has confidence in so he can make a good shot when the opportunity comes.

burntmuch · « **Reply #6 on:** April 11, 2007, 04:20:26 PM »

The 308 is gunna hurt with these little handis. My votes going with the 30/30 as well . Give him acouple years then get him the 308.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #7 on:** April 11, 2007, 04:26:39 PM »

go with the 30-30, in a single shot with spitzer bullets the 30-30 is not your great grandfathers gun!!! If you reload it can do anything you want it to within reason and it is great to start a new deer hunter on and great for an experienced hunter also. Also factory ammo is cheap and plentiful....<><....

Skunk · « **Reply #8 on:** April 11, 2007, 05:18:30 PM »

I think the .243 is still a good choice for an 11 year old if he is not real big yet. He must not be too big yet since you also want his rifle in a youth model.

My question though is why would a 308 or a 7mm-08 for that matter be better for a child than a 243 for accuracy issues? Are you suggesting that if he gets excited, that a larger caliber like a 308 will make up the difference of a bad shot? I guess I'm trying to say that if he takes a bad shot or doesn't hit the deer in the vital spots, any caliber might give you some big time problems. Of course, you probably already knew that.

It doesn't appear that the 30-30 is available in the Youth model. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

The 7mm-08 would be a good choice too.

Thumbs up to you for taking your son hunting. You are a good dad.

Skunk

trotterlg · « **Reply #9 on:** April 11, 2007, 05:28:12 PM »

I would say, that to me, the .243 has the harshest recoil of the batch. The math may not show it, but it is a very sharp and nasty kick those little things have. The felt recoil has a lot to do with the shape of the recoil pulse, and I think the .243 puts a lot of energy into a very short time. It's hard to define, but move the same piece of lead down range with a .243 and a .308 and the .308 feels better every time. Larry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** April 11, 2007, 05:55:57 PM »

The recoil table below seems to me to be an acceptable comparison of recoil between the 243, 7mm-08, 30-30 and 308. I've shot all of them in a Handi/Ultra, the 243 has the least recoil and recoil velocity of all even with 100gr hunting loads with the 30-30 being very close to the same felt recoil. I've shot 120gr and 140gr loads in the 7mm-08, recoil is very mild, I've shot 168gr and 180gr in the 308, recoil is much more noticeable than any of the others and the table shows that. Of course, getting a factory rifle with a youth stock on it is going to eliminate the 30-30 and 308, but even those can be loaded to lighter recoil or use reduced recoil factory ammo, as well as for the 7mm-08.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_recoil_reloads.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rem_managed_recoil.htm

Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity
.243 Win. (75 at 3400) 8.5 7.2 7.4
.243 Win. (95 at 3100) 7.25 11.0 9.9
.243 Win. (100 at 2960) 7.5 8.8 8.7
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1
7mm-08 Rem. (150 at 2750) 7.5 13.9 10.9
30-30 Win. (150 at 2400) 7.5 10.6 9.5
.30-30 Win. (160 at 2400) 8.0 11.9 9.8
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7
.308 Win. (150 at 2800) 7.5 15.8 11.7
.308 Win. (180 at 2610) 8.0 17.5 11.9

Sourdough · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2007, 09:45:11 PM »

My experience is that a .308 rocks me just as bad as my 30-06. I personnally can't tell the differance. I started my son out with a .243 at 10. He also was small for his age. He killed a Caribou when he was 11 with the .243, so whitetail would be within reach.

The 7mm-08 would be better than a .308 for a small person.

Youth stocks can be ordered from NEF/H&R if you decide on a gun that does not come with one. But then scopes can be a problem since the youth stock has a low shotgun/iron site comb. I actually cut off his Monte Carlo stock to the same lenght as a youth stock, and added a new recoil pad.

George K · « **Reply #12 on:** April 12, 2007, 03:21:20 AM »

I want to thank everyone for their input. I think what helped me the most was the charts and some of the comments. I am now considering either the 30 30 or the .243. Adding another barrel to fit the gun, how difficult is this must they be sent to a gun smith or can they just be purchased? I am leaning toward the .243

My son has a fairly bad flinch already, that is my fault. When he shoots anything other than his BB gun even his Rossi 22 he flinches quite a bit. When he was 5 our family went to SA on a hunt. The PH talked me into letting him hunt a waterbuck with a .270 He got scoped. From the comments here I think my best decision would be to get a .243 and spend as much time as possible shooting it. What do you think?

Thanks
George k

45/70fan · « **Reply #13 on:** April 12, 2007, 03:42:54 AM »

You would be best served by "wearing out" the .22 until the flinch goes away. It may take awhile but just keep him shooting. Then go up to the 30-30 or 243 when he's ready to move up. From what I see on here the 30-30 is one of the more accurate out of the box. Remington makes a reduced recoil load in 30-30 that should work well.

darat100 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:02:53 AM »

I have to agree with 45/70. The 22 is cheap to shoot. Shoot box after box until the flinch is gone. I would even suggest something like a 223 or a 7.62 if you have one accessible before the 30-30. Work into it slowly. It took until I was an adult and purchased several guns of my own that I finally got mine worked out. It was done by working progressively stiffer loads. Most people that start with a 30-30 do fine, but if he has a flinch, it would only take a couple of stiff shots to bring it right back after all the time getting rid of it.

rshunter · « **Reply #15 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:27:14 AM »

George,

30-30 Handi, Replace adult length stock with youth, limbsaver slip-on pad, Remington 125 Gr. Reduced Recoil Ammo, Mercury Recoil Reducer, and a Blackhawk Cheek Pad.

This combo has my 9 year old, 80lb. son, saying " I didn't even feel it ". If he is shooting less than 150 yards, its a piece of cake. I find myself wanting to "play" with it as much as he does. Without a doubt, IMO, the best deer set-up possible for a new and/or small shooter.

Hope it helps and good luck this fall.

Shawn

MSP Ret · « **Reply #16 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:48:01 AM »

rshunter is speaking wisely and truthfully with the voice of experience, heed his wisdom and advice. The 30-30 is the way to go for your son's rifle....<><....

Ranger J · « **Reply #17 on:** April 12, 2007, 05:07:27 AM »

Do you reload? If so making your own ‘reduced load’ bullets might make the .308 shootable for your child. I had a .308 barrel, which I have since sold and replaced with a .308 savage 200, which was very accurate. Of course I added about a pound and ½ of lead shot to the bolthole of the rifle, which helped reduce felt recoil. I got by with the recoil pad that came on the gun but a better recoil pad will also help. A strap on shoulder pad is also available. I am a large man and I reload my 159gr-.308 s to only about 2600-fps. I hunt in the Missouri Ozarks and rarely have need of a really long shot. Above all, whatever you get him, when you have him shoot it get him a good pair of earphones. On the noise level, Handis seem to be rather loud. Once while shooting the .308 barrel I had another shooter come over to me and want to know “What kind of a canon I was shooting” I had on earphones and being behind the barrel was not aware of the muzzle blast. Another time a fellow was shooting a 243 next to me and even with the earphones on I was ‘aware’ of the muzzle blast. I think it was a case of the bark being worse than the bite as he said it did not kick hard. I agree with others to have the child shoot the .22 until it becomes second hand to him. Don’t push him into a larger gun until he is ready for one or you may ruin the experience forever. I don’t like recoil, while my daughter seems to love it. She started out shooting a .22 at age 8 and at 9 was going through all my 7.62-39 ammo in a SKS. She won’t shoot that anymore, 18 now, but will go through my supply of 30-06 reloads though.
RJ

cgturner7 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 12, 2007, 08:17:04 AM »

I'm glad to hear others report on the stiff recoil of their .308s. I thought it was just me. I'm going with a bull barrel .243. Later, I may add a 30-30 and see which one fits my hunting best. Gotta love getting a new caliber for around $100!!!

RackWrangler · « **Reply #19 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:06:17 PM »

Just my .02, I started my wife out with a .22, then went right to a Survivor in 308. With the heavy Barrel and the thumb-through grip it was easy for her to shoot. For extended bench sessions I fill the stock with BBs. It adds quite a bit of weight and the 308 recoil feels like a 223. When it's time for hunting, I just empty out the BBs and away we go. You never feel the recoil when shooting at game anyway. Just make sure you practice shooting the same way you plan to hunt. This will help avoid another meeting with the scope. Another added benefit of the Survivor is it already has a short stock. A slip on Limbsaver would work wonders. If you wanted to make it even shorter (which is what I did for my wife), remove the swing away butt plate and just use the slip on Limbsaver. This made the total LOP about 13 inches...that's an inch shorter than a stock Handi.

RW

BANG_OW · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2007, 04:11:18 PM »

30-30 is the way to go.

ONE HOLE 4570 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 13, 2007, 02:32:37 AM »

Go with the 30-30 & if you reload Hodgdon has some good reload info on youth loads if not remington reduced loads work well. I used 125 grain sierra's & My son got his 1st deer with it this past deer season

Yes burn up that 22 a brick at a time until that flinch goes away

scrcteach · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2007, 07:22:19 AM »

Is he wearing ear protection when he flinches? If so, try doubling up (plugs and muffs) to see if that helps. Sometimes the noise will be just as responsible for flinch as recoil.

poncaguy · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2007, 07:28:09 AM »

I think the 7mm-08 would be ideal........I have bad shoulders and the 7-08 isn't much more than my 30-30 with recoil. Of course, you can use the new Hornady Lever 30-30 ammo and it would work very well.

sparkysteve · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2007, 11:15:08 AM »

I'd go with a 7mm-08 or 30-30 too. I started out at 13 with a 35 Rem. that gave me a wicked case of scope eye. You don't want him to develop a flinch or scare him from shooting. If you get him a Handi you can always get any other barrel for it later. As he gets bigger so can his gun.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 13, 2007, 11:25:08 AM »

Quote from: George K on April 12, 2007, 03:21:20 AM

I want to thank everyone for their input. I think what helped me the most was the charts and some of the comments. I am now considering either the 30 30 or the .243. Adding another barrel to fit the gun, how difficult is this must they be sent to a gun smith or can they just be purchased? I am leaning toward the .243

My son has a fairly bad flinch already, that is my fault. When he shoots anything other than his BB gun even his Rossi 22 he flinches quite a bit. When he was 5 our family went to SA on a hunt. The PH talked me into letting him hunt a waterbuck with a .270 He got scoped. From the comments here I think my best decision would be to get a .243 and spend as much time as possible shooting it. What do you think?

Thanks
George k

No matter what rifle you choose for him...Find a stock fitter in your area and have the boy fitted properly...You can check at most local trap&skeet ranges...they most always know who is good around you...it will make a world of difference in his enjoyment...Get him a good quality in the ear ear plug (30db) and have him shoot with those in...Big mickey mouse ear phones don't help youngsters develop a proper cheek weld and he could be getting slapped in the face if wearing them...Also...find a very long eye relief scope for him to use...or one of those Holo sights that fit on a Weaver rail..The kind with the different cross hairs and dots...this will still give him a cross hair to use..but won't get touched by it at all...

If your good with shimming and fitting the Handi barrels..you might find a good 30-30 or 243 barrel for sale and do it yourself...There is good information up in the FAQ's on doing this...or send it back in to NEF and have them fit a new barrel for you...and while there..you can have a trigger job done on the frame...The gunsmiths have done excellent trigger jobs for me in the past...If you send it in...Have the fitter install a good recoil pad for him after it gets back from the factory.....a Limb Saver or Pachmayer triple magnum would be my choice for a small child...Most stock fitters have on hand some of the soft self sticking pads most trap shooters use on their shotguns..and I would have him put one on.....Either barrel would be a very good choice and should serve him well...

Good Luck

Mac

Datil · « **Reply #26 on:** April 13, 2007, 12:21:56 PM »

Hello George Welcome to the site, No matter what cal you choose, If it comes with adult
stock, order youth stock from H&R/NEF, save the not used so can switch back as the boy grows.
then save that stock so he can put it back for his son. my 2 cents Marv

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** April 13, 2007, 12:44:42 PM »

George, here's another possible answer as far as optics, I just ordered a BSA Holgraphic sight from Midway, if it's normal price has any to do with its quality, it's better than most BSA products, and it's on sale for $50. It has 4 reticle patterns, a 2 MOA Dot, Crosshair with 1 MOA Dot, 25 MOA Circle with 6 MOA Dot, and an Open Crosshair with 1 MOA Dot.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=910680

MTGlass · « **Reply #28 on:** April 13, 2007, 04:28:11 PM »

George, I'm partial to the 7mm-08 and bought a "Youth" model SB2-Y08 for my 11 yr. old daughter to use this fall. She just passed her hunter safety course and wants an elk! 7mm-08 is my personal minimum for elk. For smaller critters a .243 is probably fine

So far I've had her shooting Hodgdon's youth loads. They seem to kick less than her 20 gauge and don't bother her. These loads do print about 12" low at 100 yds. I was pleasantly surprised at how well she grouped them. I'll have her put at least 200 rounds through this rifle over the summer.

skifastchad · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2007, 07:25:11 PM »

Quote from: RackWrangler on April 12, 2007, 04:06:17 PM

You never feel the recoil when shooting at game anyway. Just make sure you practice shooting the same way you plan to hunt.

I fully agree with your statement, but its easier done with shotguns than a 308. I have had people start out patterning on turkey targets with light skeet load. When it comes time for the hunt, I sneak in a 2oz 3" mag. When the target animal walks out in front of the hunter, there is so much adrenaline that recoil is never felt.

Id vote for the 30-30 as well. When the kid decides that he wants a bigger gun, it wouldn't take 5 minutes on a classified ad here to trade a 30-30 for a 308 or 30-06.