Author Topic: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires (Read 3413 times)

Who Me? · « **on:** April 30, 2007, 07:16:59 AM »

I've been working with my 7-30 Waters barrel on my G-2 and have had problems with mis-fires. My first batch of fire-forming rounds had 20 mis-fires out of 60 rounds. I thought it might be due to the CCI primers I had used, because they were several years old. Last Saturday I had a chance to get to the range again, so I brought along a new batch of fire-forming rounds that I had loaded with new primers. I still had mis-fires, but not quite as many. Most of the mis-fires were with Federal cases and one or two with Remington cases, none with Winchester cases. I measured the rim thickness on the Federal cases and the Winchester cases. The Federal case rims were about .002" to .003" thinner than the Winchester cases. I'm thinking that the thinner case rim would place the primer .002" to .003" farther away from the firing pin, so a marginal primer strike would cause those cases to not fire. The primers were dented, but it seemed to be very shallow. I did have the trigger pull lightened last summer. Would the change in trigger pull have any effect on how hard the hammer hits the firing pin? I do not use a hammer extension. I'll probably call the people that did the trigger job, but I thought I would post this first to see if the lightened trigger might be related or is it just a coincidence?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2007, 07:33:23 AM »

Not knowing your reloading pratices , just a couple things , if the primer pocket is dirty you may not get the primer all the way seated , or if you don't seat it deep enough to begin with the first strike will seat the primer deeper and not set it off .
Have ya tried the round a 2nd or third time to see if it would go off ? I had one and have a mod 94 now which is a little more fun ! good luck !

skb2706 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2007, 08:26:01 AM »

Quote from: Who Me? on April 30, 2007, 07:16:59 AM

I've been working with my 7-30 Waters barrel on my G-2 and have had problems with mis-fires. My first batch of fire-forming rounds had 20 mis-fires out of 60 rounds. I thought it might be due to the CCI primers I had used, because they were several years old. Last Saturday I had a chance to get to the range again, so I brought along a new batch of fire-forming rounds that I had loaded with new primers. I still had mis-fires, but not quite as many. Most of the mis-fires were with Federal cases and one or two with Remington cases, none with Winchester cases. I measured the rim thickness on the Federal cases and the Winchester cases. The Federal case rims were about .002" to .003" thinner than the Winchester cases. I'm thinking that the thinner case rim would place the primer .002" to .003" farther away from the firing pin, so a marginal primer strike would cause those cases to not fire. The primers were dented, but it seemed to be very shallow. I did have the trigger pull lightened last summer. Would the change in trigger pull have any effect on how hard the hammer hits the firing pin? I do not use a hammer extension. I'll probably call the people that did the trigger job, but I thought I would post this first to see if the lightened trigger might be related or is it just a coincidence?

My guess would be that your fire form loads have the step shoulder pushed back too far and have created excessive headspace. Sizing brass from 30-30 to 7-30 requires that you incrementally size the neck down to where the gun will just barely closes to get the small shoulder to hold the case against the breechface. Forget about the rim thickness it is meaningless, you want the case to headspace off the shoulder.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2007, 08:57:22 AM »

the 7x30 is a rim case , which should keep the round from going in the chamber to far unless there are chamber problems , yes the shoulder should just touch i agree " but " we used to shoot 223 in our 7tcu bbl to start the reloading / fire forming process , in a thompson center , it would open the mouth and made it easier to finish expanding the mouth ! we split alot of cases before we tried this , in the 7x30 the shoulder is set where it is on a 30/30 until it is fire formed to 7x30 !
i mentioned the primer because some rounds fired and a few did not ( how would the hammer spring know ? ) and " soft "primers happen alot unless you prime as a separate step ! This i learned shooting IMHSA !
skb2705 , you are right about size so the action will just close if you want good accy, and long case life ! also if the g2 is like the contender check the locking bolts on the bbl , we did this with all the bbls we used on a specific frame ! if i remember they should hit about half way on the wedge , but a gunsmith who knows TC would be best to ask , its just a matter of changing bolts (2) ! this may have been one of the reasons for the G-2 ( haven't shot one yet )
ya'll have fun with yo gun !

Who Me? · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:10:11 AM »

SHOOTALL,
Thanks for the reply. I had cleaned the pockets and tried hitting the primer two or three times. No-go.

skb2706,

Not trying to be a wise A$$, but doesn't the 7-30 headspace off the rim? If the rim of the case bottoms out against the rim counter-bore before the shoulder hits the wall of the chamber, then that wouldn't be the problem, right? Or am I missing something? I think I'll have to dig out my feeler gauges and check the headspace between the breech face and the casehead of one of my fireform rounds and then check it again with a Federal factory loaded round. That should eliminate ammo problems if they measure the same. I recently came across some factory ammo, but haven't tried that yet to see if there are any misfire problems. What do you think?

Who Me? · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:22:55 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on April 30, 2007, 08:57:22 AM

i mentioned the primer because some rounds fired and a few did not ( how would the hammer spring know ? ) and " soft "primers happen alot unless you prime as a separate step !

SHOOTALL,

Looks like you added a reply before I could collect my thoughts and type them!

I did seat the primers with an RCBS hand primer in this case. I was thinking hammer spring because if it was borderline on the amount of energy it had to dent the primer and then the primer was moved away .002" to .003", it might not be enough to dent the primer sufficiently. The cases that did not fire were Federals which have a rim that was .002" to .003" thinner than the Winchester rims which fired every time. With the thinner rims of the Federal cases, the case would seat that much farther into the chamber until the rim contacted the bottom of the rim counterbore in the chamber. I'll have to do some more testing with factory loaded ammo to see what happens. Thanks to all who replied!

skb2706 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:45:35 AM »

Quote from: Who Me? on April 30, 2007, 09:10:11 AM

,
skb2706,

Not trying to be a wise A$$, but doesn't the 7-30 headspace off the rim?

Originally in a lever action rifle ...yes. Definitely not in a break action TC. Most of the loading manuals I own state very clearly how to size 30-30 brass for proper headspace in fireform loads for a 7-30 Waters. Using the shoulder to set headspace provides a much better fit between breechface and shoulder datum line than strictly relying on the rim. The rims vary far too much and don't allow for the differences in fit up of barrels in different frames.

I do have a couple of original factory loaded rounds of 7-30 W if you care to check them against your loaded rounds.

alsaqr · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2007, 12:21:26 PM »

Replace the hammer spring with one from that place that we dare not mention on this site. Contenders and Encores have very light
hammer springs that often cause misfires. Have you recently put a hammer extension on the gun? If you have that is the problem. My Encore worked great until i put a hammer extension on it and then all miss-fires. The new spring cured the problem.

Who Me? · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2007, 03:33:32 AM »

Quote from: skb2706 on April 30, 2007, 09:45:35 AM

Quote from: Who Me? on April 30, 2007, 09:10:11 AM
,
skb2706,

Not trying to be a wise A$$, but doesn't the 7-30 headspace off the rim?

Originally in a lever action rifle ...yes. Definitely not in a break action TC. Most of the loading manuals I own state very clearly how to size 30-30 brass for proper headspace in fireform loads for a 7-30 Waters. Using the shoulder to set headspace provides a much better fit between breechface and shoulder datum line than strictly relying on the rim. The rims vary far too much and don't allow for the differences in fit up of barrels in different frames.

I do have a couple of original factory loaded rounds of 7-30 W if you care to check them against your loaded rounds.

skb2706

Thanks for the offer! I have found a source for a few boxes of 7-30 Waters / 120 gr. so, I guess I need to do some comparisons on the dimensions and do some test firing with the factory ammo. I still think the hammer spring might be light, but I've been wrong before!

I still need to call E.A. Brown and run this by them, since they did the trigger work. Right now, I've got another 500 .22-250 cases and 500 .204 cases waiting to be reloaded, so this might have to go on the back burner for awhile. Thanks for all the replys!

Who Me? · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2007, 03:34:35 AM »

Quote from: alsaqr on April 30, 2007, 12:21:26 PM

Replace the hammer spring with one from that place that we dare not mention on this site. Contenders and Encores have very light
hammer springs that often cause misfires. Have you recently put a hammer extension on the gun? If you have that is the problem. My Encore worked great until i put a hammer extension on it and then all miss-fires. The new spring cured the problem.

I might have to do that. For 8 bucks, it might save a lot of headaches. Thanks!

Lone Star · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2007, 03:17:59 PM »

Guys, the Contender and G2 are notorious for misfires caused by their interlock safety blocking the hammer. This keeps the hammer from hitting the firing pin with full force, often leaving a dent but not deep enough to set the primer off. I would bet $$$ this is what is causing the missfires. The interlock safety can fail to function for these reasons:

- Case sized too long in headspace or seated bullet hitting lands, not letting the barrel seat fully
- Action parts dirty or sticky - spray them out with brake cleaner and do not oil them at all!
- Barrel bolt out of spec - replace bolt
- Barrel lug out of spec - send barrel to T/C

It is possible, but unlikely, that the primers are faulty, the pockets are too deep, etc. Replacing the hammer spring may just end up battering the action parts worse.

.

HL · « **Reply #11 on:** May 02, 2007, 02:10:56 AM »

Make sure when you fire form, you have the bullet seated into the lands of the barrel, to prevent the case from being pushed forward in the chamber when the firing pin strikes. If you don't have it set up like this, you will get misfires. But you also need to make sure that you have complete lock up when closing the chamber.

Doing it this way, I have fire formed over 400 rounds so far without a misfire. My dad had some misfires when he started fire forming, but it all stopped when he seated the bullet into the lands.

Good Luck,

HL

358jdj · « **Reply #12 on:** May 02, 2007, 03:18:05 AM »

Food for thought.

In 1998 I bought a used Contender in 35 Remington. It would fail to fire often. Tried all the reloading tricks to make it reliable. No luck. Tried factory loaded ammo, same problem. Called TC and they said to send it in. One week later they send me a brand new frame. Best part - NON CHARGE!

Did a trigger job on the new frame and I have been good to go ever since.

skarke · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2007, 03:50:16 PM »

Thanks

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** May 03, 2007, 01:19:12 PM »

Quote

Very important, cases that head-space on the rim, such as a 30 30, 7x30 waters, etc, in fact all cartridges in break open actions should probably be full length re-sized.

This simply will not work on many case/die/chamber combinations - if you mean running the ram fully into the FL die. Bob Milek, co-designer of the Herrett cartridges and one of the first and best-known Contender hunters/developers, was forced to author several articles in the shooting press to explain why just running a case all the way into a FL sizing die won't usually work and results in misfires and short case life. He explained the correct method to adjust the FL die so that perfect ignition results. He believed that bottlenecked cases in the Contender should be sized to headspace off the shoulder, not the rim. It all depends on the chamber/rim dimensions, and this can vary a surprising amount.

Oh, and make sure you do not use oil on the action parts - remove it all to avoid ingition problems. This is in the T/C Owner's Manual, but no one ever seems to read it.

As silhouetters we fired thousands of rounds in our Contenders every year and pretty well have it worked out. Once we had our FL dies set correctly, we never had ignition problems or the short case life problems that less-experienced shooters have.

BTW, I strongly suspect that GB will not be happy with the quote you posted....but he won't hear about it from me.

.

skb2706 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2007, 03:16:33 AM »

Good post...........I set up my dies like had been explained to me by Mr. Milek many years ago. Never had misfire issues with my TCs again.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2007, 03:49:41 AM »

Thanks for reminding us about Mr. Milek , tried to read his work , wish we could get that today !

skarke · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:50:49 AM »

Guys, I think that we are all saying the same thing. The fact is that if you allow cases to HS on the shoulder, which you should, the shoulder must be bumped back to HS correctly. If the case is allowed to be too long at the shoulder, break open guns won't close properly. They might close far enough to allow the hammer to fall, but in the case of G2s and Encores, not far enough to allow a solid strike on the firing pin.

All break open guns, especially with hot loads, allow more case stretch than bolt guns. That's just fact. We just need to account for it, and size to fit the chamber. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need to bump the shoulder all the way back. But, we should bump it back to HS properly.

I'll not ask about personal issues between Mike and GB, no harm intended.

FWIW, JMHO

Who Me? · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:00:59 AM »

Okay, range update:
I took the 7-30 Waters to the range Sunday morning along with a box of Federal factory ammo. Out of the first 10 round sleeve, I managed to get 5 that fired. Out of the next 10 rounds, I got 2 that fired. Total fired, 7 out of 20 with factory ammo. I went to the M*** B**** website and read his articles on headspace and misfires. I took the barrel off the frame and dropped in a factory round and the head of the case was flush with the breech end of the barrel. I checked one of my rounds that had not been fire-formed yet. This was a 30-30 case that was resized in the 7-30 Waters die and loaded with a Remington Core-lock 140 gr bullet with the bullet seated to the cannelure and the case head on this round was flush with the breech end of the barrel. I then checked one of my reloads that had been fireformed and reloaded using the fireformed case. The case head on this round was flush with the breech end of the barrel also. Per M*** B**** this is the way it should be. Next, I checked for headspace per M*** B**** 's article. I put the barrel back on the frame, inserted a factory round in the chamber and closed the action with a feeler gauge between the case head and the breech. I was able to close the action on .001", .002", .003" and 004". It would not close on .005" Per M*** B**** , the tolerance is .001" to .006" and anything more would be out of specs. So, with the ammo fitting correctly and the headspace within tolerance, is it time to try a new hammer spring? If so, which spring, the 44 pound or the 51 pound?

skarke · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:42:37 AM »

Seems like you've done your due diligence. One other thing, if you have dry fired your frame, the cone shaped spring on the firing pin can be damaged. I'm sure that you've checked that as well, but its a thought.

The thing that concerns me about the Encore hammer is that it is a little weaker than the old contender hammer. If you have an extension on the hammer, and a heavier spring, it might eventually fail.

358 JDJ has a point with sending the rig to TC. They'll fix it, and send your aftermarket parts back.

I must say that your unfortunate problem has been a BIG help to me, with all the excellent feedback by so many informed people. I continue to learn so many things reading everyone's posts, and I appreciate them.

Sorry that you are having difficulty, but keep us in the loop. I'd love to know what the problem ends up being.

Dan

ARCHER · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:59:59 PM »

OK! I have been watching this post closely and really want to see the outcome of this! I too have a frame (G2) that doesn't work with one barrel (aftermarket) I have. I asked questions and tried to work this out myself. A friend has a G2 frame and barrel from the same place. I reload!!!! Now the fun part!!!!! I started to question my reloading. Tried stuff! Couldn't get it to fire all the time. Then I got my friends frame on my barrel and no help there. Put my ammo in his barrel and his frame, SHOT NO PROBLEM! Put my frame on his barrel and still had a problem. Put my ammo in my encore ( all the same caliber ) Shot no problem! One of the tests I was doing was with brass and primers only, it's cheaper then shooting loaded ammo. Went to a gun smith in the area and asked if he would look at it, said ok. While at the gun smiths, when I dropped all this off he did change a spring in the barrel for locking up to the frame and one for the hammer.. Didn't help! But he put a old contender frame on my barrel, all the primers went off without a problem. He changed to a stainless G2 frame and it worked great again! If I had the money I would have bought that frame then, but my wallet just isn't that deep! Now before I got into this too deep I sent the frame to TC without the aftermarket barrel, they tested it on many barrels and calibers, they said, no problems. It shoots fine with factory barrels I have! I will be buying a G2 frame latter when I have the money and if it works great. I didn't think sending the barrel to TC would be a smart thing to do, being its a wildcat round. Wish you luck!

Who Me? · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2007, 05:14:31 AM »

Okay, I ordered the 44 pound spring. It should be here in about a week. Hopefully, that will fix it. $:-\$

Who Me? · « **Reply #22 on:** May 14, 2007, 03:59:51 AM »

Update:

I went to the range Saturday to sight in my varmint rifles for an upcoming PD shoot. I took along the Contender with the .204 barrel instead of the 7-30 Waters barrel. This barrel / G2 frame combination used to fire just fine... not anymore. It would just leave a shallow dent in the primer, not enough to fire. The new hammer spring should be here this week as I spent the extra $3 for Priority Mail. If that doesn't fix it, I guess it's time to send the frame back to E.A. Brown or else just order the complete spring kit from MB and redo the trigger too.

skarke · « **Reply #23 on:** May 14, 2007, 03:14:44 PM »

BTW, do you use a hammer extension? Is it steel? If so, look very closely at the hammer. Is it bent? Steel hammer extensions on the Encore hammer sometimes can cause hammer failure. Also, check the firing pin spring (easy, you only need an allen wrench). Is it damaged?

Just some thoughts, and I REALLY appreciate the follow up. Good luck.

Dan

Who Me? · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2007, 04:18:41 AM »

skarke

No, I don't use a hammer extension. This is a G2 Contender. I received the 44 pound hammer spring last night and installed it. The install was easy. I put my .204 barrel on the frame and took 3 primed empty cases to test fire it. The first two went BANG ! and the third one went click. Next, I put the 7-30 Waters barrel on and seated primers in 3 empty cases to test fire. The first two went BANG ! and the third one went click. I remember reading something about the firing pin spring. Can the allen screw be removed with the hammer in the frame, or do you have to strip the frame down? If that isn't it, I think it's time to ship it back to T/C. This gun is about a year old and doesn't have many rounds through it yet. Is there an exploded view of the G2 online somewhere so I can look at the part schematic? Thanks for the help!

Keith L · « **Reply #25 on:** May 15, 2007, 07:22:22 AM »

I would recommend sending it back to TC. But the risk you run is that they will return it to factory specs, which may undo your trigger job. I have three g2s, and none needed a trigger job. They are about 3 pounds and crisp, so just fine for hunting. Your needs may vary.

It has been a few years since I sent one back, but they used to send a list of replaced parts along, and a note as to what the problem was. If they do please post here what the problem was.

skarke · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2007, 07:58:03 AM »

Who me,

Sorry, I forgot that you were talking about a G2, not an Encore. My contenders are all easy open, and my "new style" is an Encore. I believe that the firing pin housing is similar, though, to the Encore. You'll see a small screw that holds a round insert which contains the firing pin, spring, etc just above the rear of the firing pin (where the hammer strikes). You'll need to remove the barrel to get the parts out. You might take a look, but I don't have one in front of me, so I'm kind of depending on my memory. Damage should be pretty evident. If you see damage, the springs are cheap.

Like Keith L said, TC will fix it and return any aftermarket parts. These things are pretty easy to take apart, and I'm sure that you can do it, but there is no substitute for an excellent warranty.

Like Keith said, keep us informed.

Who Me? · « **Reply #27 on:** May 15, 2007, 09:28:41 AM »

skarke

The G2 has two firing pins. One for rim-fire and one for center-fire. If I remember correctly, the screw that holds the firing pin insert/housing is located below the two firing pins. I'll have to look again tonight to see if I can get at it without removing the hammer.

Keith
If I send it back, I'll post the results here. T/C will probably restore the trigger parts to factory specs if E.A. Brown replaced any parts when they did the trigger job. If they do and I don't like the trigger, I'll probably fix it myself.

Thanks for all the suggestions, I had pretty much run out of ideas.

Who Me? · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2007, 03:23:08 AM »

Well, I was able to remove the insert that houses the firing pins. It had some gunk / oil around it so I cleaned the insert, the firing pins and the springs. The pins looked like new and the springs looked good too. I put it back together and tested it again. Still misfiring. I guess it's time to ship it back to T/C. $:-\$

skb2706 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2007, 06:55:23 AM »

If after you send it to TC and they tell you they have found no problem....will you be convinced that it is a case/headspace/sizing problem and not a gun problem.