Author Topic: 45-70 Wildcats (Read 6960 times)

Dixie Dude · « **on:** May 18, 2007, 06:24:43 AM »

What wildcats have been made from 45-70 brass? I was thinking of .40, .375, or .350 using round nose bullets for use in a re-barreled model 1895.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:12:26 AM »

33 Winchester (WCF) was actually a production cartridge that was based on the 45-70. 475 GNR is a 45-70 with the taper taken out to accommodate a .475" bullet. I'm sure there are many others of varying degrees of practicality. There has been much talk of the desire for a .375 based on the 45-70 case, but I haven't heard about anyone actually having a reamer made or chambering a rifle for one. There has actually been more recent activity of wildcatting the 450 Marlin.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:21:34 AM »

I was thinking in terms of a roundnose .375 with the .45-70 case. Would this give more accuracy? range? and energy? at longer ranges than the .45-70?

Lone Star · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:37:38 PM »

At the same pressures it would give less muzzle energy than the parent .45-70 - just like the .25-06 gives less energy than the parent .30-06. This is because the smaller bullet diameter means that less of the energy generated by the powder will be transferred to the bullet. But the better BC of a 300-grain RN bullet would mean that at long range - how long I don't know - the bullet would pack more energy and fly flatter. But there is a problem with the idea - the Hornady 300-grain bullet will probably not expand much at the low velocity of a .375/70 wildcat.

You'd probably be better off - in a practical sense at least - with a .375 JDJ, a great wildcat in its own right with lots of pressure-tested loading data and a proven track record. It can be loaded to higher pressures than the .45-70 case too, due to its smaller case diameter. But I'd not discourage anyone from trying something "new", practicality be darned!

.

StrawHat · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2007, 08:18:56 AM »

Like the other posters, I don't recall hearing about any 45-70 wildcats with the exception of the 475 (I recall it as coming from the JD Jones gunshop).

The factories did produce a few cartridges based on the 45-70 case. Off the top of my head I recall the 33 Winchester, 38-56, 40-65, and some shorter versions of those last two for which I can not recall the designation.

I had to reread your original post to find out why you wanted to use round nosed bullets in a lever gun. I see you are considering the 1895. Here, I will guess you mean the Marlin as I don't believe the Winchester will accept a case the size of the 45-70 without a lot of work. ( It is a lot of work just converting a Win 95 from 30 Gov't to 405!)

The prevailing rule of thumb is to avoid RN is a tubular magazine. If you are fixed on the RN you might consider a single shot rifle. If you are fixed on the lever gun, think about flat nosed bullets.

Either way if you look up the ballistics for the old Winchester cartridges you will get an idea of what is possible.

Not to squelch the idea of experimenting but what is wrong with the 45-70?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2007, 02:25:33 PM »

Nothing is wrong with the 45-70. I have a Marlin. I just thought that if you necked it down slightly, you might get a good flat shooting round with good energy down range out of a lever gun. When I said round nose, I ment flat, slightly rounded, or whatever, to fit a lever gun.

iiranger · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:40:36 AM »

Actually, as brass (actually copper) cased cartridges were new, there would be one rim size and the factory would work from there. I think there was a .28/30. I know there was a .32/40 and .38/55 --same rim and approx. case length. It was necked down and blown out to hold smokeless powder (30 grains) to make the .30/30 WCF. And the .32 Special... Ballard use the rim. The .45/70 rim went out to the .45 Sharps 3 1/4 straight at its longest. Same as the .45/120 WCF. Early, lightly loaded, .45/60 WCF for lever actions (shorter). .45/90. BIG POINT! These cases are for black powder pressures and do not have the brass in them of more modern design. Section one and see what I mean. If you want "hot" then the .450 Marlin is a good idea or .444 Marlin. [One 'smith has the .308 family on the .444 case for single shots, called "Triads". If you are willing to stay with the old design brass, the .38/56 WCF Improved --Ackley or other-- (on the .45/70 rim) will come close, but not quite, the .375 H&H. Of course the .375 H&H was never loaded hot for use in "hot" places like Africa or India... "Wildcat" is not quite and applicable term. At the same time, rivalry between companies: .25/35 WCF was the same as .25/36 Marlin (or so says Mr. Ackley).. for only "sales" reasons... different names... luck.

maroontoad · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2007, 04:36:50 PM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on May 18, 2007, 06:24:43 AM

What wildcats have been made from 45-70 brass? I was thinking of .40, .375, or .350 using round nose bullets for use in a re-barreled model 1895.

Hi,

I built one of these on a 95 XLR. The cartridge in a Marlin is the ballistic equivalent of the .358 Winchester, although it needs about 6 grains of powder more to do it. I am in the process of moving it to a Siamese Mauser as the case as shown is too long to feed well in the Marlin. If you reduce the case length to 2", you will lose very little velocity and will have a very useful wildcat with your name on it.

Regards

Snow.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2007, 05:03:58 PM »

Quote from: iiranger on May 21, 2007, 05:40:36 AM

These cases are for black powder pressures and do not have the brass in them of more modern design. Section one and see what I mean.

That's not neceesarily true of all modern made brass. Bell 45 Basic brass is good for 60kpsi+ according to them, and is thicker than 500 S&W brass by .014", .050" compared to .036".

Tim

jedman · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:04:26 AM »

I have been thinking of making a 375 wildcat on a 45-70 case but you would need a little more case length like the 45 basic. My plan was to size the case with a 376 STEYR die and chamber it in a H&R handi rife, making the rim cut with a tool bit and using a standard 376 STEYR reamer. This would be to long for a Marlin lever gun.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:21:41 AM »

Jedman, depending on pressures, the Handi wouldn't be the best platform to make that wildcat. I've tried a 300WSM on a Handi, could barely get into 30-06 velocities with 150gr bullets before there was too much action flex. Even with top loads in my 280 Improved, frame flex is an issue. The SB2 frame just doesn't deal well with too much bolt thrust.

Tim

jedman · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:44:18 AM »

Thanks Tim, I have thought of that problem, I know there is quite alot of powder capacity in the 376 STEYR case but I was thinking of using the long 38-55 barrel and experimenting with slower burning powders and take it a step at a time, I not after 376 STEYR velocities anyway. That prodject will be a while before I get to it as I have two other handi rifle stub/rebarrels that I am working on now.
Jedman

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2007, 08:05:41 AM »

I have a 405 Winchester that was rebored and rechambered from the 38-55 Target, I'm able to get 2435fps with the 300gr Hornady SP, but pushed any harder and I got stuck brass with the ejector, which wouldn't happen with a current production barrel with a mechanical extractor.

Tim

jedman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2007, 01:38:39 PM »

One of the 45-70 wildcats that I am working on is a 338 bore that is a standard length 45-70 case sized on a 340 Weatherby die that has been shortened by about .800. I have been able to form the case in one pass...sometimes, but need to anneal the neck and probably size it in two steps to get it to not smash about half of the cases I size. I tried to also make one in 7mm with a shortened 7 mm Rem mag die but it was more bother trying to neck a 45-70 down to 7mm size than it was worth, I may still try later with a 33 Win. case ?
The 338 will have a ejector to start with, I am hopeing to get a cartridge with velocities about like the new 338 Federal in a rimmed case.
Jedman

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2007, 01:51:44 PM »

Use a 307 Winchester necked to .338, then you have a rimmed 338 Federal!! But where would the fun be in that!!

You might try different brass, Starline 45-70 brass is thicker, has less volume than Win brass. I've tried necking 30-30 brass up to .375" for use as a short 38-55, Rem brass collapsed, Win doesn't.

Tim

BAGTIC · « **Reply #15 on:** December 15, 2007, 10:31:08 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on May 22, 2007, 05:03:58 PM

Quote from: iiranger on May 21, 2007, 05:40:36 AM
These cases are for black powder pressures and do not have the brass in them of more modern design. Section one and see what I mean.

That's not neceesarily true of all modern made brass. Bell 45 Basic brass is good for 60kpsi+ according to them, and is thicker than 500 S&W brass by .014", .050" compared to .036".

Tim

At least 15 years ago Winchester told me that it's .45-70 brass was suitable for pressures suitable for any modern 'standard' (non-magnum) cartridge including the .270 and .25-06. Winchester is a lot cheaper and easier to find than B.E.L.L..

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** December 15, 2007, 11:24:42 AM »

Quote from: BAGTIC on December 15, 2007, 10:31:08 AM

At least 15 years ago Winchester told me that it's .45-70 brass was suitable for pressures suitable for any modern 'standard' (non-magnum) cartridge including the .270 and .25-06. Winchester is a lot cheaper and easier to find than B.E.L.L..

You missed my point, 45 Basic brass is 45-120-3¼", a round that's never been chambered for in any rifle made for modern smokeless pressures beyond trapdoor level, if they "made"(they no longer make it, Jamison bought their assets and has yet to put any on shelves) their brass to stand pressures well in excess of what any firearm has been made for it, it gives you an idea of what the 45-70 brass is made for. Since the Ruger/Modern rifle level of 45-70 Hodgdon and Hornady data has a limit of 50kcup, worrying about 45-70 brass being weak since it was orginally a blackpowder round just isn't the case now.

I'd recommend Starline brass over Winchester brass in a heart beat, it's much better made to closer tolerances and a bit thicker, weigh a bunch of each and you'll see the difference.

Tim

Slufoot · « **Reply #17 on:** December 15, 2007, 01:04:45 PM »

David Clements of Clements Custom Guns has developed a cartridge called the 348DC. The case is a 45-70 necked down and shortened to 2". He developed this cartridge to work in the 1895 Marlin and is building guns so chambered.
You can read about it on his web site, http://www.clementscustomguns.com/rifleservices.html

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

BAGTIC · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2007, 07:25:54 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 15, 2007, 11:24:42 AM

Quote from: BAGTIC on December 15, 2007, 10:31:08 AM
At least 15 years ago Winchester told me that it's .45-70 brass was suitable for pressures suitable for any modern 'standard' (non-magnum) cartridge including the .270 and .25-06. Winchester is a lot cheaper and easier to find than B.E.L.L..

You missed my point, 45 Basic brass is 45-120-3¼", a round that's never been chambered for in any rifle made for modern smokeless pressures beyond trapdoor level, if they "made"(they no longer make it, Jamison bought their assets and has yet to put any on shelves) their brass to stand pressures well in excess of what any firearm has been made for it, it gives you an idea of what the 45-70 brass is made for. Since the Ruger/Modern rifle level of 45-70 Hodgdon and Hornady data has a limit of 50kcup, worrying about 45-70 brass being weak since it was orginally a blackpowder round just isn't the case now.

You missed my point. The original question was about using .45-70 brass, not .45-120-3 1/3". The SAAMI pressures for the .25-06 are 63,000 psi, equal to what B.E.L.L. was claiming. Thicker brass reduces case capacity and increases pressures. With two cases loaded to the same pressures the more spacious will have greater potential. After the first firing bolth brands will fit the chamber they were fired in. When you're discussing a wildcat you are talking about a custom reamer and chamber. Cut the chamber to fit a commonly available 'good enough' brass to start with and you will never have to worry about finding new brass in the future after the 'custom case manufacturer' folds.

I too use Starline brass for a lot of my guns. It is very good brass but that doesn't mean it is 'stronger' or 'weaker'. I suspect there isn't enough strength difference between Winchester and Starline, one way or the other, to make a difference. Anyone that is loading that close to the case failure limits is already beyond the limits of good practice.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #19 on:** December 31, 2007, 02:10:07 PM »

.416 barns.
Page 196 in cartridges of the world 9 th edition. If you don't have one stop in at a Barnes and Noble or a Borders book store and pick one up.
Shoots 300 to 400 grain .416 bullets 2155 to 2355 FPS. With ME up to 4,000+ foot pounds. There is loading data on the page.
The comment by the Editor is "It is too bad that Marlin is not chambering this fine round."

jedman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 02, 2008, 02:51:42 AM »

This is a 45/70 based wildcat, I call it my 340 Mashum Flat because it is based on a shortened 340 Weatherby Mag.
The length of the brass case is 2.040 about the same as a 30-30 Win. With a 225 gr. bullet it will do 2500 fps plus out of a handi rifle without any pressure signs. Jedman

Duckhunter39480 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 30, 2008, 04:20:16 PM »

A few years back there was a gunsmith in Jackson, MS that offered some rechambers based on the 45-70 case. I think he called this his "White Express" line of cartridges. He actually did a 260 X 444 for me that is really great but I have never seen any of his "White Express" cartridges.