Author Topic: Banner 6X24X40 field report (Read 1307 times)

LaOtto222 · « **on:** June 20, 2007, 12:59:33 PM »

I took out the Banner today to see if there were any problems with cranking on the AO or power setting changing zero. Let your opinions and interpretations roll.

Banner 6X24X40 Scope Repeatability

Conditions-Wind gusting up to 20+ from the North East Shooting to the West. 81 degrees, mostly sunny. Shooting in shade to sunlight to shade. When the wind was not blowing there were heat waves to contend with.

Firearm & Ammo – Stevens 200 with 18” heavy 221 FB barrel. The ammo was REM cases, BR4 primers, 16.6 grains of IMR 4198, 50 grain V-MAX just short of the lands.

Fired three fouling rounds out of a cold clean barrel.

1.   Fired three rounds for starting point at 2” diamond. Settings were 100 yards for AO and 24X for scope. Shots 1 and 2 into 1 hole; shot 3 - ½” away to right and above the other two.
2.   Turned AO from 100 yards to 15 to infinity back to 100 yards. 1 shot that was ½” straight right of 1st two just below the third.
3.   Turned power down to 12X. Two shots both 1”high. One almost straight above original 2; one about ½” to right of 1st shot, 1” high from original 2 shots.
4.   Turned power back to 24X. 1 shot widened the original hole to the right (back to zero)
5.   Turned the power to 10X. Two shots touching 1 ¼” dead to the left of original two shots (zero)
6.   Turned power to 12X. shot either off of paper or into another hole this was the tenth shot at the same diamond.
7.   Same setting; shot diamond to the right of the original with the same setting as above. Went dead center 1” high. The shot before must have went into another hole.
8.   Back to 24X original target This time made sure that I did not bottom out the power adjustment when going up to 24X. One shot 5/8” from the original 2 shots it was high and left.
9.   Turned the power to 12X on second target (the original target was getting full of holes). Two shots; 1st was ½” high and to the right of the shot on this target from before. The 2nd shot was dead center ¾” low from the original shot.
10.   Power to 10X; AO adjusted from 100 – 300 – 50 – back to 100 yards. 1st shot called pulled to left and it was about ¾”. Second shot over lapped 2nd shot from #9
11.   Turned to 24X; One shot. Touched the last two shots. That makes three in a row that went into about .25”
12.   Turned to 10X; one shot. High and left of last three shots about 1 1/2” away. Oh well!
13.   Turned to 24X; one shot. Back to the three holer! Now the hole is about .375” . 4 shots into a .375” center!
14.   Back to 10X; one shot. About 5/8” high and to the right of my now 4 shot hole.
15.    New target again. Turned to 24X and made 6 clicks high (previous shots had been centered in the diamonds, basically) 3 shots; two touching and one 5/8” away to the right. Basically all shots were centered. Two to the left and one to the right about equal distant.
16.   Power to 10X; one shot. Went ½” high and ¼” left of previous center.
17.   Power turned to 24X; two shots. With the previous shot at 10X and these two I had a three shot group about ¾” on center and 2” above center of diamond. This is about ½” higher than the previous three shots.

Total shots fired – 30; barrel was cool through out test (a lot of walking between shots)

Conclusions - I do not think changing the AO makes a bit of difference. Changing the power (turning the power ring) does shift the point of impact a little (1/2” to 1” or so), but basically comes back to zero. The shift could have been the way I was leaning on the table, Caldwell rest, pressure on the rifle, ect. It is pretty difficult for me to shoot; walk away and comeback and have any consistency to my shooting. I am sure there are better shooters out there than I am. The loads I was using may not be the best for this rifle either. I was also getting good results from the same load but 17 grains (.4 more) of powder. I also got good results with Reloader 7. Basically my confidence has gone up with this scope and I think when changing powers do it smoothly and do not bottom out the power ring. In other words do not crank it all the way to an extreme stop. I did make an elevation change of 6 clicks. This brough it up exactly 1 ½” from dead center zero. I shot 3 shots, walked away then fired 1 more walked away then 2 more. The last 3 were 1/2” higher than the first 3. Was it me or the scope or gun? It seemed to settle in at 2” high. On the average I have been able to shoot into ½” with this gun, when I do my part.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 20, 2007, 03:05:10 PM »

Very good!!

Try shooting the box next time to see how well it tracks, then do a follow up report for us.

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** June 20, 2007, 06:12:57 PM »

This pretty good shooting. It is quite common with economy scope that the impasct changes a bit from low to high. It is best to sight in the rifle with the higher powers the ones you use for long shots.

As you have found out not to turn the power ring to the end it make the cam
torque. Go to the end of the scale and then slightly turn the ring back.

If you have a collemeter you can actually see the x-hair move when bumping
right to the end of travel. Always return the ring a little.

Most variable scopes will maintain point of impact in the middle of the power range. In your scope 16x will give you perhaps the best performance.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:11:24 AM »

Thank you guys.

The next time I have a chance I will shoot the box and report it here. Dale and I wondered if changing AO's and power affected impact point any. That is why I tested the way I did. I changed the zero because I wanted it sighted in at 1 1/2" high. Dale has been loosing zero on his and wondered if it was the ring adjustments or bouncing in the back of his pickup. From what I saw with this scope I think what he is seeing is bouncing around causing a shift in his zero. It gets frustrating missing at 100 - 150 yards when you know you should be nailing those waskly wabbits...err I mean ground hogs. I stepped off a gravel pit (long story and a bit embarrassing) and went to the bottom. The gun slammed down hard in the sand/gravel. It was a different gun, but same scope model (I have two of them). Zero changed about 2 feet at 35 yards. I was scared that I would not be able to bring it back to true zero, but I did.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:12:03 PM »

LaOtto. I think I may have been a combination of problems. First off when I went back to the range to check zero it was shooting about 2 inches left and about 2 inches high. I don't know if it was doing this because when I sighted it in the first time I shot from sandbags under the rear of the stock and rested the front on a Caldwell rest under the hinge. By the way this is my 204 Handi Rifle. I later added a bipod and was shooting from it in the field. I have it rezeoed now and knocked the snot out of a groundhog ( head shot ) at about 125 yards or maybe a little further this past weekend. Time will tell weather it will lose zero again.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 21, 2007, 07:12:24 PM »

I would like to know how it turns out for you.

Although I have not lost total confidence in this scope, it is not as strong as it was before. All of the other problems with "cheap" scopes do not bother me that much. I have learned to use a scope that I have to center my eye into and I have no trouble with it. The complaints I hear about getting distorted at higher powers just does not effect me much. Too dumb to know better I guess.

I do not hear much about not being able to hold zero. I read reviews and the most complaints is about view at higher powers. Not holding zero bothers me. Turning the power ring and loosing zero is not some thing that I take lightly. Even if it comes back with other power adjustments. I take some pains to load ammo to make it as accurate as possible, then turn the ring and loose it does not set well with me. When I turn the power up or down, I want the same absolute zero. Maybe I am asking too much. I never had an expensive scope to know how they do with this. I am not sure how much one would have to pay to get a scope able to hold zero no matter what. Or if you can even buy one at any price. I think that is why a lot of bench rest shooters get fixed power scopes. I have a fixed power Banner (10X) with AO and bullet compensator. made about 25 years ago. It seems to hold zero for ever no matter what. I used it for years on my 222. I could put it away pull it out 12 months later put it on the bench and it dead center with the first shot. I have recently put it on my H&R Ultra 223. There is no power ring to mess with to change zero. For a field gun, it sure is handy to turn the power up or down depending on the situation. Once I zero, I do not change my turret settings very often. I use Kentucky windage and use an educated guess for elevation. I do not do too bad. I have shot small black birds at 250 yards doing this.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2007, 05:48:16 AM »

Let me know what you think. Maybe you see some thing different than I did or have a different conclusion. I am open to suggestions for a different scope. I do not want to pay a King's ransom for one though.

Banner 6X24X40 Elevation and Wind-age Adjustments

Same firearm and ammo from above
Power set at 16X on Fred’s advice
Shot 3 fouling shots from cold clean barrel.
Conditions – overcast, but can see the line of clouds above and it is going to be clear and sunny. The sun came out for good about an hour into this and stayed out. 65 degrees but warming to about 72 degrees when finished. No wind (shooting started about 8:00 AM finished at 10:15 AM)

1.   Moved down 6 clicks from previous shooting session. I fired 3 shots at center of center diamond. Went into less than ½” moved 1 click left
2.   Fired 3 more shots 2 tight; 1 went 1” to the left???
3.   Fired 3 more all tight to center and about 5/8” I think I am centered now.
4.   Moved to a new target 1 shot to center about ¼” high from dead center
5.   12 clicks up & 12 clicks left. 1 shot 4 ¼” up and 3” left. Shot a second shot same settings. Almost went off of the paper. Another 1” higher and about 1” more to the left. Shot one of my clips…dang it.

I was going to move 24 clicks to the right for the next shot, but since I was going off of the paper, I changed my mind how I was going to shoot this test. I was going to go from corner to center to another corner, back to zero and so forth.

6.   Back to zero (12 clicks down 12 clicks right) ¾” dead left of zero (original shot)
7.   8 clicks high + 8 clicks right (breeze picking up a little not enough to hurt any thing) 2 ¾” right and 2 ½” high,
8.   Back to zero 5/8” high ½” left of original zero
9.   8 clicks low + 8 clicks right 3” low 1 ¼” right (using grid lines)
10.   Back to zero ¾” to left and 4 ½” low. It is 1 ½” lower than last shot. Am I having a senior moment and went the wrong way?
11.   No changes in elevation - Fired again to confirm settings close to other shot???
12.   8 clicks up moved 1” higher and ¼” to left
13.   8 clicks up moved 1 higher and straight above last shot. I am only moving it 1” with 8 clicks???
14.   8 more clicks up higher than last shot but touching it.

15. 8 more clicks up 1 ½” higher 1 ¼” to right of last shot. Did not make any wind age changes through this. I have now moved it up 40 clicks and to the left 8 clicks total. This got me 5/8” lower than the original dead center shots fired.

Not sure what was going on here. I had to move it bunch up to get back to zero. I noticed the elevation turret is high, I could see the number 4 line on the turret post.

16. 8 clicks down and 8 clicks to left with doubts 3” down 2 ½” left
17. Back to zero (keeping my fingers crossed) 5/8” straight left of original zero. It was also 5/8” low and ½” from last shot at zero after the debacle above.
18. 8 clicks down and 8 clicks to the right just had to see if I was going to have a problem in that corner again. 2 ½” low and 1 ¾” to the right
19. back to zero came back this time with in 3/4” of original zero.

I started to re zero my rifle and shoot a couple of groups for confidence. Not much adjustment needed, even coming from the lower right corner. Could not shoot a decent group. Tried twice. I think that disaster in the the lower right corner had me going. I do think I have it basically zeroed at 100 yards. Running out of ammo. Dumped 150 cases into the tumbler.

Conclusion – WOW what an eye opener. Either I was shooting at over 100 yards or the clicks move more than ¼” per click. With a few exceptions the 8 clicks took me more than 2”. The most notable was when I was trying to get back to zero from the lower right corner the first time. Still not sure what to think of the first time I went to the lower right. I had a devil of a time getting it back to zero (40 clicks). Maybe I was having a memory lapse and moving up and then back down. Even so it was moving up about 1” with 8 clicks. The only exception was the first one which took me down. That may have been a senior moment, but not the others. I do not rely on clicks for elevation or wind-age. I estimate distances and wind then use hold over and into the wind for my shots. I have shot small black birds at 250 yards doing this. It is a good thing with this scope. Other than the the problem getting back to zero from the lower right corner, the scope did come back to zero fairly well. But…after all of the above including the power ring adjustments I am thinking…new scope.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:11:58 AM »

Doesn't sound good at all, I'd send it to Bushnell and have em fix it.

For a different scope, I'd recommend the Mueller 8.5-25x44 Tactical or 8.5-25x50 Eraticator, both are very good scopes for the money. I have the Eraticator on a 204 Ruger Handi, Mac11700 has the Tactical on one of his rifles. Missou Mule sells the Eraticator for $230 shipped.

Tim

http://muelleroptics.com/products/MT852544.html

http://muelleroptics.com/products/MU852550IGR.html

http://www.mizzoumuleguns.com/id12.html

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:22:59 AM »

Thanks Tim. I was thinking about a Mueller scope. Have you done any extensive tests with them? I had a lot of confidence in this scope until I tested it.

Don't any more

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:34:31 AM »

No, I haven't, but others have so I felt no need to, I've had it on two different rifles, it's never let me down in any way. Savageshooters has a great review on it, but they've switched their site over to members only access.

Here's one from RFC when they first came out. You can also read the reviews at Mueller, there are 3 pages of reviews on many of their optics. I have 6 Mueller scope, I've only had a problem with one, a little moisture on the inside of the objective lense, I returned it to Mueller, got a new one-piece tube version of the same scope back a week after I sent it in, their CS rivals that of H&R, just doesn't get any better.

Tim

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63821

http://muelleroptics.com/reviews/

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 22, 2007, 06:53:49 AM »

Thank You again Tim. I think I see Mueller scopes in my future

I was a real fan of the Banner scopes and have several of them. Having my doubts now. I have been building or modifying my own rifles and have been taking great care in my hand loading procedures. All of this is to get to precision shooting. I guess it is time to look at the scope angle, it is disappointing to say the least. I have 2 of the Simmons 6.5X20X50 and liked them very much too. I think it is time I check these out as well.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** June 22, 2007, 07:28:36 AM »

The Simmons WTC18 6.5-20x50 is a great scope made in the Philippines, I have one, the only things I don't like about it is the krinkle finish which has a reputation of being fragile, and the reticle is on the fat side, but for $100 when you can get one, it's a lot of scope for the money, or at least used to be, I've had mine for a few years.

Tim

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 22, 2007, 12:54:34 PM »

Those are the two that I have. On one of them the finish is starting to come off. It still seems to shoot well. The fat cross hairs do not bother me much. On the range I just center the cross hairs over the target (two inch diamond) and in the field if the cross hairs cover up what I am shooting at it is probably too far away for me to hit any way. Remember I use what we call here Kentucky wind-age. The cross hairs do not cover the object being shot. If there is a wind or too far out. I have shot some pretty impressive groups with the one on my heavy barreled 223 (bolt not Ultra) I have not been able to get my Ultra to shoot good for me yet, but I have not spent a lot of time with it either. I just have so many other "projects".

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #13 on:** June 22, 2007, 05:56:28 PM »

LaOtto you have opened my eyes. Maybe my problems are not me at all. I really don't know!!!!!! I really thought that I had a pretty good scope ( FOR THE MONEY ) till I saw your report and the problems I have been having. I also have been looking at the Mueller scopes. I am now thinking that might be the best bang for the buck. I would still like to see someone shoot the box on one of the Muellers.

mattinPA · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2007, 03:53:34 AM »

hello
If you guys do this box test your scope will have to be level on each shot on you test or it will mean nothing. To do a test like this you need to also hold the rifle the same way in a good quality rest that will not let the rifle rock around. A anti can't device should be mounted to the scope or the base for the rings of the rifle. Level it with the reticle.
You most take out as much human error as possible.

matt

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 24, 2007, 11:47:47 AM »

mattinPA - Plain and simple - You are correct. And I was aware of this during the test. There was error introduced by me and by the inaccuracies of the gun/loads. This scope was way off, more than any error that was introduced by me. I used a Calldwell Lead Sled DFT to keep every shot as precise as possible. I have been able to shoot 1/2" groups with this rig on a regular basis. Even if the clicks were precise, I do not think I introduced enough error to see what I was seeing here. While I may not have had it exactly the same for each shot, it was close. It was close enough the it should not have taken 40 clicks to get back to zero from the lower right corner. Have you done tests with the Banner 6X24X40 scope? If you have what were your results? I would like to know because I do have two of them and am wondering if it is worth sending this one back to be repaired. In other words is this typical or an exception?

For now I have taken it off my rifle. I have no confidence in it any more.

mattinPA · « **Reply #16 on:** June 24, 2007, 01:12:16 PM »

Laotto
I have never had banner scope so I have no input on it .
Before giving up hope on your scope get a level for them. You can build one with a old set of rings and a level bubble from the hardware store.
then level it to your reticle Set a target at 100 yards look through the scope like you were going to shoot it but before you do look at the level. I bet the level will be off.
Your scope may not be true but I would just try this to be sure.

I started using the level for my scope last year when I has trying to get little tiny groups out of my target rifle.I found that my shooting habits were not so good when it came to my scope. when I put the level on I went from 1in groups on a good day to 3/8in groups at 100 yards but were it really help was at long distance . I thought my scope was bad before I put the level on. I would adjust my scope and the shot would go way off and had know idea why.

Good luck
matt

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 24, 2007, 01:26:27 PM »

Some food for thought.

I do have a Reticle leveler that I use to mount scopes with. It has a bubble level on it. It would be easy to attach it while I am shooting. I have taken great care in mounting the scope. When in the field or bench, I use the perpendicular hair to determine if I am level or not (by eyeball). I think I will give it a try to see if it makes that much difference. If I find my eyeball is not as good as I thought, then I will attach a bubble permanently. (You can buy them) Thanks, I am always looking for a way to improve.

Don-T · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2007, 03:35:32 AM »

Much as I hate to admit it, I have the same repeatability/adjustment issues with my 6x24x40 Bushnell. There seems to be some "stickiness" with the adjustments. I turn in 8 clicks at 100 yds to move my group 2" but it only moves 1/2", so I move another 8 clicks and get 1/2". Then I click another 8 clicks and suddenly I'm 3" high and left! Brand new scope going to eBay! Looking at another Mueller.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2007, 04:04:53 PM »

HOLLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You may have stumbled onto something here. I would like to hear from others like myself that own these scopes. Please guys step up lets hear if you have any problems.

wncchester · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:44:15 PM »

The Adjustable Objective (parallax) adjustment will not change impact unless it is defective. In fact, it will have no effect at all IF the shooter is carefully viewing through the optical center of the scope! All the AO does is make sure there is no parallax error at the set range even if the eye is off center. And the range markers on the scope are only a guide, not exactly correct at all, so the proper setting must be determined by the shooter for correct viewing.

"Jumping" adjustments are due to mechanical slop, or backlash, in the adjustment threads and the follower spring. All scopes have this slop to some extent, some are just better than others. Inexpensive scopes do tend to be worse but it can be handled.

The best way to deal with scope backlash is to always approach the new setting from the same direction. My scopes find turning the turrets clockwise, tightening the internal screw, is best. This means I will go directly to the goal if I need to move the turret 6 clicks clockwise. But, if I want to change 6 clicks counter-clockwise, I first go maybe 16 clicks counter-clockwise and then come back 10 clicks clockwise to get to the 6 clicks over that is needed. It's a little clumsy but it is nowhere near as clumsy as dealing with erratic jumps in the adjustments.

mattinPA · « **Reply #21 on:** July 02, 2007, 02:22:31 PM »

Quote from: wncchester on July 01, 2007, 01:44:15 PM

The Adjustable Objective (parallax) adjustment will not change impact unless it is defective. In fact, it will have no effect at all IF the shooter is carefully viewing through the optical center of the scope! All the AO does is make sure there is no parallax error at the set range even if the eye is off center. And the range markers on the scope are only a guide, not exactly correct at all, so the proper setting must be determined by the shooter for correct viewing.

I could not say that any better myself

The swift scopes come with markings that that you can set your self for the AO and this is why they do that .

matt