Author Topic: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season  (Read 5955 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JJHACK

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
    • http://www.huntingadventures.net
Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« on: July 10, 2007, 06:11:06 PM »
I think many of you have read and know my opinion on the TSX bullets. I have been using them for myself and my loaner rifles at the lodge in Africa for three years now. During that time I've seen a few odd things, but over all they have been fantastic. I have also formed some rather strong opinions on the TSX and bullets in general over my career in big game hunting.

Because of this experience I get a whole lot of Email and PM's from people who don't really want to post an opinion or comment due to the possible ridicule and internet fighting that goes on with bullets, and hunting gear in general. These additional opinions from individuals adds a lot to the big picture for me. They are not biased, or employed by bullet makers. They simply want to share real world experience without the crap offered by many folks on Hunting Forums.

It seems that rather then open your mind to weird possibilities that can occur from time to time, many people prefer to defend their choice as if it's one of their offspring. Regardless if it's a bullet choice, rifle, optics, etc. Many people are very defensive of the equipment they choose. I simply no longer care what people use, or what brand is the current most popular. I just want to get to the truth and see what really works best for "ME".



I cannot explain why there is a frequent exit hole that looks as if there is no expansion when using the TSX. This past year I examined all the body cavities of game shot very carefully. Everyone of them shot with the TSX bullets showed 1" to 2" shattered holes through the rib bones and surrounding tissue, ...........even with bore size exit holes. I can no longer accept that the bullets do not expand, but rather push their way out with the skin stretching to pop out the bullet, then recovering back to bore diameter. With a 2" shattered hole through the ribs on one or both sides, usually the bigger hole is on the entry side ribs, not the exit side. It seems the slowing bullet does less damage as it's going through.

Without exception the bigger hole through the ribs was on the entry side 100% of the time, many times double the size. Now here is a thought I have which is what comforts me in my choice of the TSX. I would very much prefer several things in a projectile that I use.
Accuracy, TSX has this in spades.
Penetration, TSX has this in Spades, there is no better!
Exit holes, Is there a better expanding bullet with a higher frequency of exits made by anyone on earth?
Integrity, again no complaints....and here is the part that clinches this for me. I would prefer to have a bullet fail to open then I would to have it go to pieces. If a failure of any bullet made is possible, and I doubt anyone will argue that any bullet is perfect in every way. We have to accept that sending a bullet on its way at 3000 FPS with an impact at 70 yards is a lot of stress to stay in one piece. Then we also expect that same bullet to be soft enough to open at 500 yards and develop a picture perfect mushroom. Failure in this very wide window of performance is imminent.

I strongly feel that Rifles shooting over 3000 fps *OR* when shooting game over the 400-500lb range justify the TSX bullet, and should be very strongly considered as your top choice. Also the bigger bore rifles seem to have flawless performance of the TSX. The much larger hollow point tip in bullets .358 and larger really opens them well!

Shooting slower cartridges, or smaller lighter game in the 100-400lb range there are all kinds of good options. The TSX still works well in this situation, but quite often zips clean through without a good reaction to the impact. Bonded core bullets and even cup and core bullets will more frequently show the impact shudder and stagger game a bit better upon impact. These comments are for non CNS, non structural bone impacts.

Here is a photo of an Eland Bull shot a few weeks ago. The lower bullet is a 250 grain Northfork from a 9.3X62. The Eland was shot the first time at 60-70 yards, he ran a ways, I followed him and again shot him as follow up at about the same distance with a 165 grain TSX from the 30/06. The Northfork did not hit any bone, the TSX shot through one scapula. Both the same distance, both end up in the same place, here’s the photo to show it.



Here is another close up of the TSX under the skin, this is a massive animal pushing the 1 ton weight range. Still the little TSX pushed through this body mass.





I prefer to have a projectile retain all its weight and stay intact, even if it does tumble, bend, or fail to mushroom or expand. Then I would to have any bullet explode to pieces and end up as shrapnel.

Below are a couple photo’s of recovered bullets, there were plenty of the TSX bullets not in the picture from this year. Everyone of them looked exactly the same so I felt that this one example was good enough to show what the results were. Had I not bagged and labeled them each day I would not have been able to tell which bullet came from which animal. They were absolutely identical in mushroom size, and shape.





Here is a photo of 2 TSX bullets shot from a 300 mag. Recovered from a Bear shot at 60 and 90 yards. Did these fail? Yeah in my opinion they are not at all good! However they were under the skin on the exit side. The Bear is dead. I would have taken this performance every time over a ballistic tip or any cup and core that would explode. A friend sent this to me with the story in Email recently. So TSX not opening can happen, but not opening is still a long shot better then expolding.

www.huntingadventures.net
jjhack@huntingadventures.net

Offline NimrodRx

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2007, 04:33:19 PM »
Thanks a bunch for taking the time to post your findings JJ.  I appreciate it.
"Make mine a double. Whether I'm ordering drinks or shotguns, it's always served me well!"  :toast:  :toast:

"It's been my experience that those who shoot most often, most often shoot well."  T. Roosevelt

Offline Dictator

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 198
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 05:39:21 AM »
JJ
 Thanks for more info. I am in the process of selecting which load combo I want for my 375 H&H for all North American game as well as African plains game. I think I remember you commenting in the past that you loved the Swift 270gr A-Frames for this, Do you now like the TSX's better? The bullets I'm looking at are the 270gr TSX, Swift A-Frame, or the Northfork SP. I know they are all excellent bullets and taking that they will all probably shoot accurate enough, which would you recommend to a client?

Thanks,
Joe

Offline JJHACK

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
    • http://www.huntingadventures.net
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 12:44:12 PM »
Neither has a big advantage, both are excellent.

the Aframe provides a better shudder impact effect, and will be under the skin on the exit sice about 25% of the time on bigger game

The TSX will out penetrate the Aframe at any angle but does not have the impact effect, or any visual effect much of the time. It will also exit 90% of the time at any angle.

For plains game as a PH I might prefer the Aframe in the 375HH because it will provide visual impact more often. With a smaller cartridge, like a  non-magnum  270, 280, 30/06 338/06 35 whelen, 25/06 etc. I would choose the TSX for superior penetration.
www.huntingadventures.net
jjhack@huntingadventures.net

Offline Dictator

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 198
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 04:32:49 AM »
That pretty much follows my instincts. I think the A-frame a somewhat better choice for my needs as it will give adequate penetration and I think better shock effect for the game I will use it on. The TSX's would be a better choice in a 300gr weight for the more dangerous varieties. Thus I think I will concentrate on the Swifts for soft skinned game. Have you had any experience with the Northfork's?

Offline JJHACK

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
    • http://www.huntingadventures.net
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 09:42:15 AM »
Yes, Northforks are much stiffer and mushroom less then an Aframe. They are great bullets but you must know what your dealing with and choose properly.

Northforks are great for high velocity, close range, and very big game.

A top choice for a 340 weatherby, 460 weatherby, 30/378 etc.

I prefer the Aframes but I don't prefer or shoot ultra high velocity cartridges.
www.huntingadventures.net
jjhack@huntingadventures.net

Offline teddy12b

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3078
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 04:43:28 PM »
JJHACK,
         Great post and pictures.  It's nice to hear and see the voice of experience as opposed to voices of speculation that often come up on these forums.

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2007, 01:24:18 PM »
JJHACK,
         Great post and pictures.  It's nice to hear and see the voice of experience as opposed to voices of speculation that often come up on these forums.


Well said.  ;D  I am a Barnes man myself.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Dictator

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 198
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2007, 02:08:14 PM »
JJHACK,
         Great post and pictures.  It's nice to hear and see the voice of experience as opposed to voices of speculation that often come up on these forums.


Agreed!  :)

Offline James B

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 944
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 04:54:57 PM »
Thanks for posting that info. I have been a Barnes user for many years. I still have not reached a total conclusion on the TXS but have had great results from the originals and X bullets.
shot placement is everything.

Offline Dixie Dude

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 06:51:22 AM »
What powder and load did you use on the 30-06 TSX 165 gr bullets? 

Offline JJHACK

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
    • http://www.huntingadventures.net
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 09:29:08 AM »
What else is there for the 30/06?  4350 of course! It in the upper 50's I'm off the lands about 25 as well.
www.huntingadventures.net
jjhack@huntingadventures.net

Offline osix

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
re: TSX in 300 mag
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2008, 11:34:25 AM »
JJHack,
Great post, I'm off to Africa in the near future, the biggest game on my list are Kudu, Gemsbok and Zebra.
I've read all the great posts for the 30 06 and 165 grain TSX. Although I'm still not comfortable with pictures of non expanded projectiles! Planning to to use a 300 Mag, thinking that 165 grain is too light and that I should use either a 180 grain or 200 grain projectile, do you have a preference?
Also noticed recently that Noslers new E projectile is more readily available, it may also be an option, have you had any experience with it?
Cheers

Offline JJHACK

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
    • http://www.huntingadventures.net
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 06:28:50 AM »
I've not seen any TSX that have not opened, and that is many hundreds of animals,

I would not be bringing a Etip anyplace on an expensive until it's been around a while longer.

I would not use a 180 over the 165 with the TSX in any 30 caliber rifle for any game
www.huntingadventures.net
jjhack@huntingadventures.net

Offline reneerick

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 4
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2008, 09:34:50 PM »
JJ,

This might interest you as a reason why some say TSX's don't open up.

http://forums.(censored word)/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3221043/m/334107787

EDIT: Sorry guys, this site won't let me link the article as it's from another forum, pity.

Offline jwp475

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2008, 10:19:50 AM »


 What is your opion on how fast the TSX bullet kill compared to lead core bullets?

Offline Skunk

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3520
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2008, 01:31:24 PM »
Excellent report!! Thanks for sharing.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2008, 05:49:02 AM »
What happened to the old, tried and found true, Nosler Partion? ???
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline JJHACK

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
    • http://www.huntingadventures.net
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2008, 07:30:33 AM »
How fast an animal dies with any bullet I have seen used depends as much on the placement as the projectile.

A nosler Ballistic tip with an impact over 3000fps into the lungs of a deer sized animal kills and crumples then about as fast as possible without a CNS hit. However I have seen the TSX do this on one animal, and then the next runs off as if it were missed completely. I'm not expecting Dropped on the shot performance from any bullet, that's just a bonus. To tell the truth each time I see this I worry about my hunters shooting skills. 99% of the time it's a spine hit and that indicates a very poor shot, from the intended POI we discussed before he/she pulled the trigger.

Once in a great while we see game fold from a body shot, but that is without question the exception. The TSX tends to whistle through and leave you with a concern the animal was even hit at all. On some they will be set back on their "heels" and you know it was a solid hit. Bonded Core bullets produce a much greater or more consistant visual impact.  Even with that said when they both run off the distance traveled is usually much more reflective of the bullet placement then the projectile itself. It's nearly impossible, Maybe even actually impossible to shoot two animals exactly the same with different bullets to say for sure.

As far as the Nosler Partition. Hmmm It's a darn good bullet. At one time the best in the world. But even Nosler believes otherwise now or they would not be making so many other bullets in premium designs. The Partition is also getting to be expensive. The Hornady interbond with a bonded core and ballistic tip is more accurate in every rifle I have seen them used. It's also sold at a much lower price. Why anyone would pay more for the partition when you can have an interbond leaves me speachless.

Hornady is going to release a TTSX style bullet after the first of the year. This is not a copper bullet, and uses the same loads as all the lead core bullets they make. This one also has the ballistic tip, and a much bigger hollow point.

I have not shot these yet, but from those I know that have used them, and hand loaded them.............well I'm not sure what else a handloader would want in a hunting bullet. This introduction will also create a huge level of competition for monometal bullets which will make these much more affordable. Barnes was the original innovator and maker of this design of bullets. However they struggled a bit with various prototypes until the TSX was released. At that point I felt that the bullet was "here" Now that 3 years of proof of concept in the field has proven them out, I think we will see other makers produce similiar designs at lower prices to gain some market share.

This new Hornady Bullet looks and sounds like a real winner. We should know more by mid 2009 on the performance in the field.
www.huntingadventures.net
jjhack@huntingadventures.net

Offline jstevens

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 11:22:56 AM »
Here's what you get with a Texas heart shot and a 7x57 140 TSX  Note the exit hole in the forehead.

Offline jk3006

  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2008, 02:19:11 PM »
Holy smokes!!  And that bullet is still going!



Here's what you get with a Texas heart shot and a 7x57 140 TSX  Note the exit hole in the forehead.

Offline WL44

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
Re: Thoughts on the TSX bullets from this past season
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 08:57:06 PM »
When I saw that post I ducked under my desk. Still not sure if it's safe to come out  ;D (and I'm in South Africa!)