How would North America look if the South been allowed to leave peacefully?

[Ga.windbreak]

So much is made of Divine intervention when talking about the US, but I believe that it's just a play on words to allow the US to put its nose in where it shouldn't be in the first place. I feel that the Southern states, ala CSA, would have been a counter balance to the USA and just maybe the world might be better off.

1. The hatred between the North and South wouldn't be a factor. In fact I don't think it would have been as much a factor if only the North had dispensed with Reconstruction and just welcomed us back into the, so called, Union as equals.
2. Would the Depression have even taken place?
3. WWI and WWII may not have even happened. Why? Because World order would have been so different. I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been a war I'm just saying that it wouldn't have been a WW.
4. Race relations, I think they would have been so much better. Slavery was already dead, it just didn't know it. The South wouldn't have been so poor and could have managed it's affairs so much better.
5. There would be no immigration problem.
6. And most important the USA would not be nearly the size it is today and Government, as a whole, would be much less intrusive.

[ironfoot]

There are too many variables to make predictions with any certainty of accuracy, other than the fact that slavery would have continued longer, and would have expanded into more territories.

[Ga.windbreak]

ironfoot I just don't understand first you say that there are too many variables to make predictions and then you make a prediction. If you are going to predict something why wouldn't you go whole hog and do it rather than just harp on the slavery thing. Number 1 slavery didn't stop with the end of the war US Grant kept his until he died and just how do you think the rails were laid, sure we paid those Chinese good money, yeah right.

[ironfoot]

I said there were too many variables other than the fact that slavery would have continued.
You brought up slavery in your post, so why do you complain when I responded to that?
The slave states had been trying to expand slavery to the territories before the Civil War took place.
"Bleeding Kansas" was about the fight, the bloody fight, over whether the territories would be free or slave.
What evidence do you have that Grant kept slaves after the war?

[Ga.windbreak]

The truth shall set you free.

http://www.american-presidents.org/2007/02/grant-was-slave-owner.html

If you will notice Lee freed his slaves before  the end of the war; in '62 before the EP. Grant's slaves were freed because of the law being passed after the war in '65.

[maggot]

Without a doubt the north would be further down the path of big government and socialism than it is now.

[SHOOTALL]

The South financed the war ! also the war of 1812 .
The South may have taken on a South African look .
WW1 and WW2 we were the supply house to our side , WW1  may not have lasted as long , who knows about WW2 .
If there had been a CSA and a USA , we may not have become a super power . The view is better looking down !
And as far as the world being better off , get real who would have stepped up to stop communism ? who would feed the world ?
As bad as some believe we are we are still the best PERIOD !
Do ya'll want us to look like KOREA ?

[maggot]

Shootall, why don't you read the communist manifesto. This country is only two small steps away from communism; 1.no private property 2.no freedom of religion. The US fulfills the other 8 steps, thanks to the north. And since when is it my job to feed the world.

[SHOOTALL]

maggot , didn't say it was your job ! My point is we "can " and not many other if any can !
Never said we were 100% right just a super power and its a nice position to be in ! IMHO !
I don't know if the south would have fared better or not , as a son of the south i would like to think so !
but i doubt that we would have effected world events as much ( maybe or maybe not a good thing ).

[BillP]

There would have been a reunification prompted by economic forces and a desire of the south to share in the westward expansion.  The north with all it's money would have won (bought) the west leaving the south as a backwater.  The CSA would have been forced to reunify as a whole or watch individual states leave to join the union.  What would the northern exodus of southerners looking for jobs have looked like if they had been alien nationals?  Can you say "Mexico"?

What would have been different would have been the democratic party or perhaps our entire two party system.  A whole bunch of Conservatives who didn't consider themselves loyal democrats would sure make things interesting.   

[SHOOTALL]

If CA. had sided with the south and brought with it its gold supply then the north may have become a backwater !

[chikndave]

Well put shootall! I think that we would all be better off had the south won. The thing about the world wars is this. If America had not stepped in there would not have been the vacuum in Germany that allowed Hitler to rise! Europe would have stabilized as it has re stabilized for millennia! The effects of Americas incursions into eastern affairs has done nothing but leave in it's wake instability. As for feeding the world, we now shun the Idea of welfare for our own citizens yet in the same breath we want to "Feed the world". poor bleeding world. they have all been here longer than us and should be able to feed themselves by now. I like the isolationist views that this country posessed in the decades before WWI. What's ours should be ours. no one feeds us. no one gives us money. In response to BillP's post, "The CSA would have been forced to reunify as a whole or watch individual states leave to join the union.", I can only say that the talk I am hearing lately says that more and more there is talk of secession amongst many southern states. It may just be talk but that says to me that we would rather have gone down the tube than side with the north after we whipped em!

[usbone1]

10 years ago I would have challenged those wanting to leave America to 'stand up and be identified' so the rest of us could kick your posteriors again...I've aged/mellowed, and watched the lack of personal accountability in this country increase to intolerable levels.  I remain steadfast in my belief the stars and bars are a traitorous flag but do respect anyone's right to their personal belief--just don't commit ant felonies on my family. 

[SHOOTALL]

I guess you feel about the SOUTH like England feels about you !

[Cabin4]

ironfoot I just don't understand first you say that there are too many variables to make predictions and then you make a prediction. If you are going to predict something why wouldn't you go whole hog and do it rather than just harp on the slavery thing. Number 1 slavery didn't stop with the end of the war US Grant kept his until he died and just how do you think the rails were laid, sure we paid those Chinese good money, yeah right.

They were free to come and go as they please. Equating the influx of low wadge Chinese laborers to slavery is inaccurate.

[SHOOTALL]

they were servents not slaves , had to buy their freedom in many cases .
and where would they go if they walked away ? If you live in a man camp miles from anything and you leave , where do you go ? can you speak the language ? It was better than slavery , for the owner i mean employer .

[Dixie Dude]

Germany would have won WWI, they had already beaten Russia and occupied the Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.  They would have beaten France and England without our help.  Then WWII would not have happened, unless Germany and Russia got into it after Russia became communist.  We probably would have bought Alaska later, for Russia to finance a war with Germany to spread communism.  Germany and Japan would be the superpowers. 

[SHOOTALL]

unless the north and south grew closer together as the need for security became evident then we may have reformed and things would be much as they are !

all that said i for one would had liked to have seen Willy Nelson pres. and Hank Williams Jr. vice pres.

[Cabin4]

they were servents not slaves , had to buy their freedom in many cases .
and where would they go if they walked away ? If you live in a man camp miles from anything and you leave , where do you go ? can you speak the language ? It was better than slavery , for the owner i mean employer .

They could walk out as easy or hard as it was to walk in on their own free will. They came here knowing they could not speak the language, they could leave the same way. If the lack of speaking English was not a barrier to coming, it would not be a barrier in leaving. This holds true today for the inflow of illegal aliens to our country. They can leave as well and we should demand that our Fed, state and local law enforcement see that they do. Okay a bit off topic but I could not resist.

[Cabin4]

Are there any good books on this subject?

[SHOOTALL]

i would disagree , to get a job in China , get passage to America and a ride to the middle of nowhere to lay track would be a bit easier than walking home on your own . As far as language if the foreman could speak to the one in the gang that could interpet to the rest then it worked then as it does now !
as far as illegals today , they did not have to cross the Pacfic ocean , no small accomplishment , not to mention they were invited to work .
if you want to see it happing today check out the programs on the sex trade in America , they show how thousands of women and girls are brough here and forced into the slave sex trade . They could walk out to , Right !