Author Topic: .357 Handi-Rifle Throat depth (Read 5953 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **on:** September 10, 2007, 01:53:17 PM »

Here's a chamber cast from my .357 Handi-Rifle:

Note that the rifling STARTS some 0.600" past the end of the brass case!

Is this normal? (It CERTAINLY isn't SAAMI standard!)

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2007, 02:58:20 PM »

You really need to send that pic to hr1871@hr1871.com

We've been bitching about it for years.

handi243 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2007, 03:02:40 PM »

Got a max case to check it with i can send you one if you need it.

Joel45acp · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2007, 09:42:08 AM »

Would this indicate that the chamber doesn't have to be reamed to 357max? What if you would take a 357max case and trim it to fit the chamber length? Would that help? Just very curious since I'm thinking of getting a 357mag barrel.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2007, 10:58:00 AM »

If you trimmed a Max case, not to exceed the existing chamber, it would probably work one hell of a lot better than a .357 with .600 freebore.

Joel45acp · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:35:36 AM »

smokinjoe, now you have me stinkin' thinkin'. If the chamber is so long then why even ream it to maxi? I'm sending my action in. Wish me luck.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:42:22 AM »

Many members shoot 360 Dan Wesson ammo in the 357mags, it's a tweener. You can probably check the chamber depth without a chamber cast, just use a small straight edge or a piece of wire if you don't have a caliper, slide it along the chamber wall until it hits the end of the chamber if it is well defined, measure that, compare to maxi length which is 1.6" long, the Dan Wesson is 1.41" long.

Tim

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #7 on:** September 11, 2007, 02:06:13 PM »

I am pretty new to reloading with less than one yr and only about 4 calibers so far... but looking at all the numbers and some COL reload data has any one just tried to shoot the max out of the mag bbl if his chamber cast is correct a max loaded at 1.890 col would put him right at the rifling would it not? As I said I am very new at this so bear with me. I am waiting for my mag bbl to get here but am starting to put componets togeather to reload for it and my pistol but was more inclined to go with the DW360 than the max to start out any thoughts on this. kurt

cpj · « **Reply #8 on:** September 11, 2007, 03:25:12 PM »

You know, I love my handi's and all, but come on. Crap like this is just plain stupid. There really is no excuse for stuff like this.

Joel45acp · « **Reply #9 on:** September 11, 2007, 04:47:44 PM »

Quote from: cpj on September 11, 2007, 03:25:12 PM

You know, I love my handi's and all, but come on. Crap like this is just plain stupid. There really is no excuse for stuff like this.

You're referring to the chamber length on the Handi right?

OR-E-Gun Bill · « **Reply #10 on:** September 11, 2007, 05:36:23 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on September 11, 2007, 11:42:22 AM

Many members shoot 360 Dan Wesson ammo in the 357mags, it's a tweener. You can probably check the chamber depth without a chamber cast, just use a small straight edge or a piece of wire if you don't have a caliper, slide it along the chamber wall until it hits the end of the chamber if it is well defined, measure that, compare to maxi length which is 1.6" long, the Dan Wesson is 1.41" long.

Tim

Tim, in your vast warehouse of links, do you have a dimensional drawing of the rifle chambers for the 357 Mag and 360 DW?

Thanx,
Bill

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** September 11, 2007, 05:46:07 PM »

Sorry, no, but I did find a couple pics to share of Contender chamber casts, note the similarity of the 357 mag casting, very poorly defined chamber area just like Cat Whisperer's.

Tim

OR-E-Gun Bill · « **Reply #12 on:** September 11, 2007, 05:57:52 PM »

Thanks for the pics Tim.
I did find this drawing of the 357 Mag on Leverguns, but it shows it as a pistol chamber not rifle.
http://www.leverguns.com/dimensions/images/357chamber.jpg

Bill

cpj · « **Reply #13 on:** September 11, 2007, 06:26:12 PM »

Quote from: Joel45acp on September 11, 2007, 04:47:44 PM

Quote from: cpj on September 11, 2007, 03:25:12 PM
You know, I love my handi's and all, but come on. Crap like this is just plain stupid. There really is no excuse for stuff like this.

You're referring to the chamber length on the Handi right?

Yes.

db22 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 12, 2007, 12:36:23 AM »

My .357 was exactly the same. There really isn't a chamber as we normally would define it. When I lengthened it for .357 Maximum brass, the reamer only removed a tiny bit of metal in the long freebore, leaving a small lip.

I did try several Max cases trimmed until they fit the factory chamber. Accuracy improved somewhat, but at that point, it began to look silly to trim cases, when ten minutes with the reamer and some cutting oil would allow the use of full-length Max cases and full-power handloads.

Even after lengthening the chamber to .357 Maximum, there is still so much freebore that I can seat a huge 245-grain Lyman cast bullet that was originally designed for the old .35 WCF cartridge all the way out so that the lube grooves almost show, and still not touch the lands.

Yup, NEF oughta get a new chamber reamer . . .

Joel45acp · « **Reply #15 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:53:10 AM »

Has anyone informed NEF of this? This isn't normal is it? I'm getting one of these, but I'm having doubts about it now. Can you convince me that I need another headache. Later.

ONE HOLE 4570 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:39:43 AM »

Mine will shoot 1 1/2 in gr with 158gr hp, peep sight & williams front fire sight & a manliquer (sp) fore arm.

Have some 180 xpt loaded up in 357 brass crimped at the bottom grove, have not shot them yet. They are a max load of 296

I like mine

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #17 on:** September 12, 2007, 05:10:00 AM »

I am pretty new to reloading with less than one yr and only about 4 calibers so far... but looking at all the numbers and some COL reload data has any one just tried to shoot the max out of the mag bbl if his chamber cast is correct a max loaded at 1.890 col would put him right at the rifling would it not? As I said I am very new at this so bear with me. I am waiting for my mag bbl to get here but am starting to put components together to reload for it and my pistol but was more inclined to go with the DW360 than the max to start out any thoughts on this. Kurt

Any thoughts on this???

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:56:53 AM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on September 10, 2007, 01:53:17 PM

Here's a chamber cast from my .357 Handi-Rifle:

Note that the rifling STARTS some 0.600" past the end of the brass case!

Is this normal? (It CERTAINLY isn't SAAMI standard!)

Here's what I see...I see that you need to completely clean all of the carbon & copper out of the leede just ahead of the chamber for starters before making your cast...you can see the roughness on your picture clearly...and that on your barrel they have a very sloping leede not at 1 deg ...which explains why the longer 360 D&W cartridges shoot good in them...

Mac

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2007, 01:46:56 PM »

Quote from: smokinjoe5150 on September 10, 2007, 02:58:20 PM

You really need to send that pic to hr1871@hr1871.com

We've been bitching about it for years.

Thanks for the link. I wrote them including the link to this thread.
It will be interesing to see what their response will be.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** September 12, 2007, 01:56:14 PM »

CW, that link and a lot more good H&R stuff can be found in the FAQs and Help sticky.

Tim

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #21 on:** September 12, 2007, 01:58:04 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on September 12, 2007, 06:56:53 AM

...
you need to completely clean all of the carbon & copper out of the leede just ahead of the chamber for starters before making your cast...you can see the roughness on your picture clearly...and that on your barrel they have a very sloping leede not at 1 deg ...which explains why the longer 360 D&W cartridges shoot good in them...

Mac

That WAS a clean chamber- no copper (it's never seen a jacketed bulltet). As you said, roughness and slope in .600 is from .380 + down to bore/groove diameter. That figures to a whisker more than 2-1/4 degrees included angle.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:04:07 PM »

Quote from: ONE HOLE 4570 on September 12, 2007, 03:39:43 AM

Mine will shoot 1 1/2 in gr with 158gr hp, peep sight & williams front fire sight & a manliquer (sp) fore arm.
Have some 180 xpt loaded up in 357 brass crimped at the bottom grove, have not shot them yet. They are a max load of 296
I like mine

Mine may well shoot that well with jacket bullets, but since I purchased this for the express purpose of competition with cast flat base bullets - not even gas checks.

It may be that with a custom mould (bore riding) that will be breech seated well into the rifling. The problem here is that the long thoat makes accurate positioning very difficult.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:08:59 PM »

Quote from: OR-E-Gun Bill on September 11, 2007, 05:36:23 PM

...
Tim, in your vast warehouse of links, do you have a dimensional drawing of the rifle chambers for the 357 Mag and 360 DW?

Thanx,
Bill

I have the SAAMI drawings for cartridge and chamber for .357 Mag but not the 360DW. I'm going to convert to CAD and inhale the JPG of the chamber cast and make comparisons.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:10:59 PM »

Quote from: handi243 on September 10, 2007, 03:02:40 PM

Got a max case to check it with i can send you one if you need it.

Thanks for the offer, but if the Max is just 0.100 longer than the Mag, it would do me no good (I need more length than that to seat the bullet with a breech seater).

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:31:36 PM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on September 12, 2007, 02:10:59 PM

Thanks for the offer, but if the Max is just 0.100 longer than the Mag, it would do me no good (I need more length than that to seat the bullet with a breech seater).

The Max is .315" longer than the Mag, 1.290" compared to 1.605".

Tim

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #26 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:55:25 PM »

Tim -

THANX - I had made an ASSUMPTION, obviously!

I'll have to pick up a bunch and a reamer - (to allow breech seating).

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:58:58 PM »

Is it possible that the chamber has carbon fouling in it? It wouldn't matter if you'd shot jacketed or cast out of it, carbon fouling would be present either way. I know folks that shoot .38 Spcl in their maxis, and mags have to clean em real good before they can shoot the full length round in em, just a thought.

Tim

Mallard57 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 17, 2007, 05:20:38 AM »

I've noticed that a large amount of .357 Handi owners rechamber their barrels to the .357 Maximum and such, with that chamber cast I can see why. I'm looking at the .357 magnum barrel for the convenience and economy, what kind of groups do you folks get out of the standard .357 Magnum barrel?
Thanks,
Jeff

darkroomdan · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2007, 09:48:34 AM »

Just got my .357 barrel back from H&R and the chamber seems to be the same as the ones mentioned - thought I'd share what I've got planned before I go the reaming to .357 Max route.

There is a recipe for a .357 magnum load for Contenders in the back of the latest Lyman manual. It uses Lyman #358315 -204 grain, gas check bullet- I have the mold coming from Midway.

It shows these for a 10" barrel.

Powder start load fps max load fps

Alliant 2400 12.0 gr 1318 14.5 1490

H110 15.8 1444 16.5 1515

It lists OAL as 1.880 so that it would be too long to fit into a revolver and might just work well with the long throat in the Handi barrel. These are probably considerably higher pressure than regular .357 mag loads as Alliant list about 10 grains of 2400 for a 200 grain lead bullet.

I figure it should get in the 1700 to 1800 fps out of the 22" barrel, but won't be able to tell since I don't yet have a chrony.
Still, it ought to be a pretty awesome little round if it ends up being accurate. Anyone tried anything similar?
Thanks,
Dan