God Bless America?

[wareagleguy]

Dee,
You and anyone else that believes abortion is a sin must be put in the same category with those who want to make your religion law.  I can NEVER stand for that.  Now, if you tell me that you are against abortion because you think the unborn has rights guaranteed by our constitution then maybe you have a point.  Practice your faith all you wish and I will fight and die for your right to do so but keep your religion out of my life.  I can think for myself, thank you.

[Dee]

Dee,
You and anyone else that believes abortion is a sin must be put in the same category with those who want to make your religion law.  I can NEVER stand for that.  Now, if you tell me that you are against abortion because you think the unborn has rights guaranteed by our constitution then maybe you have a point.  Practice your faith all you wish and I will fight and die for your right to do so but keep your religion out of my life.  I can think for myself, thank you.

Well brdavis, you pose a very interesting outlook. Actually I think you posted here more to ridicule Christianity than anything else. But with that said, as to your remark of not STANDING for anything. You WILL STAND for anything the bureaucrats decide you will STAND for. You to them are just another number in their tax role. A number whom will go along with the program to keep the IRS from taking your stuff. Your comments are taken with a grain of salt by me, and I suspect others.
As for you fighting and dieing for my rights, I doubt you would, I suspect you are more from the "ME FIRST PERSUASION", and besides I have never asked anyone to do my fighting for me. Besides, why would you fight for MY rights? You won't fight for an infant's right to live. As for you thinking for yourself, I am sure you can, and do, and I don't recall anyone trying to do other wise for you.
You obviously have an ax to grind, and Christianity is dulling your ax. Your surly attitude, and remarks are neither intimidating nor, contextual to the topic at hand. So with that said. Why don't you go and get dressed for your next march for some other liberal cause, like aids, or gay rights, or maybe even abortion. Heaven forbid that morality protecting the innocent, should interfere with your life.

[SHOOTALL]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't our laws come mostly from the BIBLE ?
and as far as showing the rep's and dem's , lets find a new party and stick with them ! at least till they forget how they got in !

[Dee]

There ya go SHOOTALL. Both the Republicans and Democrats have forgotten who put them in office. And yes, the Bible DID furnish the basis for all our laws and Constitution. Obviously some here have forgotten that. Or perhaps never knew in the first place.

[powderman]

brdavis. Killing babies is murder, murder is a sin, pretty simple. You evidently don't believe in God, your loss, not mine. Forget about Gods views then. What about morality then, oops that goes along with religion too. You surely have a sensr of right and wrong. Are you saying that you see nothing wrong with intentionally killing a child??? Surely not. God gave us all free will. We choose our own destiny. Right, or wrong, Heaven, or hell. Choose wisely my friend. POWDERMAN. 

[wareagleguy]

The constitution was formed by Christians and the basis for the constitution was as such.  Why did they just not use the bible as the constitution and use the ten commandments?  One thing you are forgetting is many people came to the country to flee from a religion controlled government.  That is why this country is a REPUBLIC and not a democracy.  The government forms the rights of it's governed in which it's the rights of the individual not the right of the people as a whole.  Keeping governemt out of our religion is a two way street.  I know you don't want to be taxed to practice your faith and so it should be that way. 

Dee,
You must have some real insight to be able know all about me from one paragraph.  Seems that more than you are doing the same.  Just remember this and to others, you BELIEVE in god and the teachings of the bible.  You are not god and you don't know more about him than anyone else.  You may think you do but you don't.  Will god judge us?  I hope.  The bible told us he will judge us all.  ONE AT A TIME!  So, let me pick my path and I will let you do the same.   

[Dee]

I have forgotten NOTHING, and you have been off topic from the very beginning. No one has made ANY claims of eliteness other than your rantings of INDIVIDUAL rights, mainly YOURS.
You have a condescending manner about your posts, that do nothing to further "your obvious cause of anti Christianity". You are nothing more than a troll, whom is trying to derail a discussion on abortion, and it's hypocrisy, in a country that is supposed to look out for the weak and oppressed.
Your avatar by the way seems to fit your demeanor sir. I make no claims only my beliefs based on Biblical teaching. It is you whom try to claim the knowledge of God, and what he thinks. Everyone here, knows why America was founded, and it was to KEEP GOVERNMENT OUT OF RELIGION, so you have no inside track on our founding fathers intention, and it is doubtful you have any knowledge on any thing that is not already well know. Your words speak for themselves, on your attitude. You have brought nothing here but unsolicited nastiness.  mo

[SHOOTALL]

I don't recall any part of the Constitution granting rights , it mostly limits the areas govt. can intrude into our lives . Ron Paul has a grip on the abuse here !
anyway govt is restricted from getting into religion ! but nothing says religion can't be part of govt ! and if one looks at our history it religion has always been part of our govt. , that is until the PC crowd has been screwing up every thing !
THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE USA IS WE HAVE LEARNED TO TURN OUR COLLECTIVE BACK SIDES TO WHATS RIGHT AND WRONG IN THIS COUNTRY ! but we are PC , RIGHT !
as far as killing children goes with the exception of rape or mentally disturbed people , the people knew the chance of creating a child was a real possibility and should not be allowed a free pass ! 3 people are involved and 2 kill the one so they don't have to deal with reality !
DEE, we may very well have used up all our miracles !

[powderman]

brdavis. You failed to answer my question. Do you believe that killing babies is OK??? POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

 BR

       I have heard folks like yourself make such blithely silly statements as:

     " If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one !"  ..cleverly stupid !.. implying that I have no right voicing disgust with the procedure..

   Would they perhaps endorse the following statements ?;

   A) if you don' believe in robbery, don't rob anyone !

   B) If you don't believe in murder, don't murder anyone !

  C) If you don't believe in rape, don't rape anyone ! ....of course all these statements implying.."but don't stop me from indulging in these things !".

    A word of warning..much is made about the evasive question, " just when does life begin ?" For many of us that is already settled, as Dee so aptly pointed out.
  As a person walking about a darkened dwelling, we may not know for certain where the hot stove is..so we move very cautiously, even avoiding any areas where
  we even think we can possibly be burned...and so we should consider God's word..if we are to err; err toward the good side..
   Solid advice, even for unbelievers..
    Crustaceous indicates that the Bible doesn't forbid abortion as such (no, i didn't miss the irony..LOL) ..But I would refer to Prover that outline the ideal of womanhood,
  Proverb 31, verses #8&9:

  " Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction;
        Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy."

   In Matthew 18;1-6 Jesus warns us about the dangers facing anyone who would harm a child..and does it again in Luke 17:2...

   Now, I know the unbelievers will scoff at that...and that is OK ! We all have our free will , to do as we wish with the Gospel..but you want to be VERY sure...

   For the unbelievers, just consider this point:

  I you are correct...,
       
    we Christians will have simply lived as good and decent life as we could muster..honoring God daily. Then, at the end of this physical existence,
  both you and we shall revert to nothingness.

   On the other hand, if we and the word of God is correct..then what ?

         Jesus said, " Behold, I stand at the door and knock ".    ...He's not going to come and grab you and convert you..He simply offers salvation and eternal life in Heaven..freely !

     Each of us can choose to either accept His offer ...or decline...

    Rather like an old TV commercial for oil filters..." You can pay me now..or pay me later "..(you choose)

          The Good News...Forgiveness and redemption is available for anyone caught up in the sin of abortion, Jesus has said that anyone that comes seeking Him..he will in no way cast out !

     Think about that !

[wareagleguy]

It is clear that nothing is going to be done here.  Forgive me for thinking for myself.  Good day.

[SHOOTALL]

brdavis , what did you expect ? for over 2000 years and before the people of this world have wasted more time , money and human life on who's right about religion than on living right to start with !

[ironglow]

  Living right is a good start..but it's not the complete answer...

   ...But i wouldn't kill you , burn you or blow you up because you don't believe as I do....enjoy..

[SHOOTALL]

i disagree if we all lived right then we would not judge each other and each would answer to God not man !
we could believe as we wished !
Of course we would not have lawyers or lawyers on steroids ( politicians ) , but no loss there !

[dukkillr]

BR

       I have heard folks like yourself make such blithely silly statements as:

     " If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one !"  ..cleverly stupid !.. implying that I have no right voicing disgust with the procedure..

   Would they perhaps endorse the following statements ?;

   A) if you don' believe in robbery, don't rob anyone !

   B) If you don't believe in murder, don't murder anyone !

  C) If you don't believe in rape, don't rape anyone ! ....of course all these statements implying.."but don't stop me from indulging in these things !".

Oh dear.  Well here's the difference:  We, as a society, have agreed that all robbery, murder, rape, are wrong.  We made laws with something like 100% support outlawing those things.  They were outlawed by common law 350 years ago.  Abortion's a different deal.  Regardless of where you get your information, you'll find a public deeply split on any question regarding abortion.  Most polls seem to split the country roughly into fourths, 25% saying always illegal, 25% saying usually illegal (exceptions for rape and maternal danger), 25% saying mostly legal (no late terms) and 25% saying always legal.  That means that 75% of the country supports allowing some form of abortion, and 75% supports putting some restrictions on abortion.  Now can we see how your above example is absurd?

To me the issue is a one of personal freedom.  It actually doesn't have anything to do with women's health (As SCOTUS opinions ruled) but rather individual autonomy.  I believe that everyone in this country has a right to decide for themselves when life begins.  For most people the decision is a religious one, but we should be careful about inflicting our religious beliefs on others.  In a country founded on the principles of freedom of religion I would draw a line at encoding my belief and forcing it on others.  If labels make you feel good, I approach it as a libertarian. 

Of course the other ideological extreme is that abortion should always be legal.  That intuitively doesn't make sense either.  A baby is born and you kill it that's murder, but a baby is killed minutes before birth it's ok?  I struggle with that.  In addition I can't figure out a reason why late term elective abortions should even exist.  Except in bad father-daughter situations, or other extreme cases, there doesn't seem to be a reason to ever confront the late term abortion. 

My personal opinion (for what it's worth)?  For 2 years in between college and law school I ran path labs and a morgue for a catholic hospital.  We did not do elective abortions but we did health related abortions, miscarriages, and still births.  The sisters determined that we should treat any fetus after 20 weeks as a human life.  My personal observations upon seeing literally hundreds of products of conception was that about 20 weeks seems right.  The earliest ones are indistiguishable from a blood clot and the latest ones look like babies.  If pressed to decide where to draw the line, considering development, viability, my own personal beliefs, and science, that's where I'd draw my line.  But I wouldn't press that on others.  It's a deeply personal decision that no one should have forced on them.

[wareagleguy]

dukkillr,
I am glad to hear sensibility in this forum.  I had given up but you have a good grasp on things.  Sure hope more level minded folks like yourself prevail in this world.

[ironglow]

  As far as SCOTUS goes, if we can keep electing conservatives to the chief elective office of our land, we may soon get a "natural law" majority on the court, since some of our best justices (IMO) are ofd the natural law persuasion..
  
     Where natural law is respected natural rights ensue, just as was true of  the overwhelming majority of our founding fathers when they signed onto the Constitution. The Bill of Rights being a clear expression of natural law.
  
       Some seem to think of natural law as a "Christian invention", but that is not really true. Natural law was carried by the Stoics before the advent of Christianity and further
  advanced by such renaissance jurists as Grotius, in Holland.

   Later came such ideas a utilitarianism and materialism..philosophies that are being used to thwart individual rights (IMO).

    I have an idea that natural law was used until comparatively intact until after the first half of the 20th century.
       A man raised as an orphan by my grandparents and like a brother top my Dad, aimed even as a child, to be a judge. He was successful, and rose high enough to be a Justice
   of the NY State Supreme Court.
        My Dad often quoted him saying, " nine-tenths of the law is common sense !"...I believe we and the Law profession have lost (or thrown away) much during the last 60 years or
     thereabouts

    God willing; we will get it back... !

[SHOOTALL]

what is natural law ?

[Graybeard]

This is an issue I still struggle with and truly have not firmed up a position on. I guess what Dukkillr expressed is as close as I've come to a position. I think it wrong to take a life for other than self defense reasons so killing a child has to be wrong almost always and killing a baby always wrong.

BUT I guess I have not yet truly decided when life begins in that context. I don't buy the at moment of conception idea whether right or wrong I just don't buy that idea. I've not put the amount of study into it that DK has obviously so can't state it so simply as he with a fixed time frame after conception. I do tend to lean to saying it begins when the fetus could survive outside the woumb on its own but even that isn't quite a satisfactory answer to me. For sure I look on late term abortion as murder and wrong.

I just can't exactly firm up in my mind when to say it might be OK and when it's clearly not. Luckily it's not my decision, never has been and never will be. I have not been and never will be involved in the decision making process over all for the nation or for even one individual case and am quite glad that is so as I'm still struggling with is it ever right or always wrong or what. I'm neither pro or anti abortion and may never really get off that fence. But since the decision is not and never will be mine to make even once I can live with my own personal indecision. I'm sure glad I will never make that decision in the case of a pregnancy and would sure hate to think I'd be facing my maker after making such a decision on the off chance my decision was wrong.

I truly see where folks on both sides are coming from but just haven't decided which side of the fence to land when/if I fall off.

[victorcharlie]

Dukkiler seems to articulate the situation very well.....I seem to be of the same opinion.......

However, when asked "Should the federal government pay for the procedure" my answer would be no, except in extreme cases.

[SHOOTALL]

i guess when two people go thru. the act of making a child whether for their personal gratification or to really have a child it is an act with a commitment , a gift from God not to be abused ! IMHO !
that is when life is created at the time of the act ! I find it hard to debate the timing after the act has been consummated !
When was Jesus the son of God the Savior of man ? when he was placed in the womb ? in the 7th mo. ? at birth ?
read what God told Mary !
I feel it is not hard to figure out if you aren't looking for loop holes ! but that's just me !

[powderman]

I believe that life begins at conception and consider life sacred. I know a woman who killed her baby over 35 years ago. I've seen her cry and testify in Church. God has forgiven her, but she can't forgive herself. She said she cries daily for the baby she killed. She wonders whether it was a boy or girl. What did she kill, Dr, lawyer, policeman, fireman, how many grandchildren would she now have? Women who kill their babies kill many more than just one child, they affect the lives of many could have been people for generations to come. Dee told you what God told Jeremiah the prophet. I knew ye before ye were in the womb. An old dr told a woman considering an abortion, if that aint a baby in there, then you aren't pregnant. Good discussion. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

Powderman;
   One of the great ironies of life; many folks are whining about finding a cure for cancer,aids, herpes, cystic fibrosis etc.   Yet some of these people are the same ones that
   insist the killing of pre-born boys and girls continue !
   They would like statesmen to help solve the world problems, scientists to help alleviate the energy pinch and artists to elevate our culture, but again..yet often same
     people insist the abortuaries keep churning.
         Yes; many of these liquidated millions would be of humble birth, but that is no excuse to kill them. Genius knows no economic strata level...Abraham Lincoln, George
  Washington Carver and Beethoven were all of humble origins (just to name a few) .
 
    Some misguided, selfish individuals think abortion is a convenient method of "birth control". To be factually honest; if they would utilize more "self control"....there would
  not be nearly so much need for birth control...

   A strange malady has hit our society, particularly since Roe vs Wade was approved by a degenerate (IMO) court. Starting with that decision, if a baby is found to be "inconvient"..just kill it !
      That sin sickness has metastasized, now it seems if a child or spouse is "inconvenient"..just kill him/her .
      Observe the Scott Peterson case and we still don't know the answer to the Drew Peterson dilemma to cite a couple. then there is the Susan Smith job in S. Carolina.
   She could have given the boys to her husband, in-laws or any of a million people that would love to have them..but no, since Roe v Wade, execution of the innocent seems in some minds, to be another option.
   
   With our liberal courts finding all kinds of excuses to let women off for killing their own offspring..post-partum etc, we can only expect these type murders to continue.

    Welcome to the brave, new, liberal/secular world..

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. Well said Sir. For the life of me I cannot understand how ANYBODY that has ever farmed, raised animals, planted a crop, or planted a garden can't know when life begins. If disease or drought kill my tomato plants before they bear fruit, I haven't lost just plants, I've lost my crop of tomatos. Got to go to work. Later. POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

It seems to me that abortion is nothing more than, discarding the consequences of bad behavior. Unfortunately the consequences of this bad behavior is a human being. But, oh well, Kay sura sura. "It", (the human being) has be disposed of, and let the partying continue, the government after all, will pay for it. This IS NOT, to say abortion should be outlawed in cases of dire medical distress on the part of the mother, or infant.
This issue however, is like many others. It is part of the ME CULTURE. It is what "I" want right now, and what "I" don't want right now. Everyone gets to give their opinion except the one it affects the most. That's the one that is literally, RIPPED IN PIECES out of the womb, and discarded, like dog poop out of some one's yard.
I believe it should be REQUIRED for everyone whom wants an abortion, to have to LOOK at what they have done to another human being, and anyone whom thinks it is PERSONAL CHOICE, should have to do like wise. It is a sign of our times, that someone should be willing to kill their own flesh and blood, when I am willing to shed my own, to not only save my own, but "have" shed my own blood to save some one else's also. This is, to me, truly incomprehensible.

[ironglow]

TM7;

   I don't know where you live, but churches in most parts of the country are very pro-active about salvaging babies before they are liquidated ! They have adoption agencies, they have homes for unwed mothers and carry on continuous education programs relating to the subject. I can also tell you of many couples/families that have adopted babies that were at one time "appointed to destruction" (proverbs ,chapter thirty-one and verse eight)   

   Of course they must do the educating in some other venue than the government schools..it seems that many government schools are very good at teaching grade school kids how to accomplish sex (condom & cucumber), but seem unwilling to tell them that they shouldn't be doing it..

   Dee;
     to complete my last post:

  Do you suppose that those who approve of this "slaughter of the innocents" and who also would like a cure for aids, parkinsons, cancer, diabetes etc..ever stop to
  wonder if it is possible they have killed off the brilliant mind that may have held these answers ?

   It has been going on and making some death merchants many $$$ since 1973..

[powderman]

WOW. I can hardly believe this, Dee and I actually agree on something, and BUSH DIDN"T DO IT.   . POWDERMAN.  

[ironglow]

Now Powderman;

    I doubt you and I have many differences with Dee theologically..so there are some small political variances..but we can be friends and figuratively shake hands after this
   "silly season" of politics.

  That goes for TM7, shootall and sundry others..bet we could enjoy each other's company greatly in "deer camp" or on a squirrel or coon hunt !

[deltecs]

Now Powderman;

    I doubt you and I have many differences with Dee theologically..so there are some small political variances..but we can be friends and figuratively shake hands after this
   "silly season" of politics.

  That goes for TM7, shootall and sundry others..bet we could enjoy each other's company greatly in "deer camp" or on a squirrel or coon hunt !

This quote I can heartily agree with.  Just our differences in ideal cartridges, bores, bullet placement and hunting techniques and clothing alone would make for very interesting and enjoyable campfire talks.  This is an integral part of hunting too.  For those who criticize hunting because no game was shot or extreme pressure, should take heed that hunting is more than getting game.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. My post was meant as a compliment toward Dee. A campfire would be nice. Some very memorable hunts produced little or no meat, just good times.  Dee and Shootall, probably, tm7, I doubt it. POWDERMAN.