Extractor to Ejector or Ejector to Extractor Conversion

[quickdtoo]

Modifying the underlug will likely void the warranty on your firearm. Attempt this project at your own risk.

Quickdtoo and GBO are in no way responsible for the out-come. We're not responsible for any mess-ups, deaths, injuries, ect.

just making sure you realize that using any of this info means you're on your own, be safe.


This is part one, will finish tomorrow, I think!  I finally got it all figured out, I've been brainstorming how to cut the slot in an extractor underlug so the latch assembly can be installed to convert it into an ejector. I decided a couple weeks ago that I'd use a cutoff wheel since the H&R cuts it with a rotary tool of some sort, finally found some 2" x .035" ¼" drive cutoff wheels at Vancouver Bolt when I was buying files from them.

Last night laying in bed trying to get to sleep, my mind was still working on a solution and it dawned on me that I didn't need to use a power cutoff tool, just the head and wheels in my drill press. So today I called MCK and they had a ¼" drive mandrel that accepts 1/4" or 3/8" cutoff wheels. I stacked 3 of the wheels together on the mandrel to make the cut, chucked it in my drill press and changed the belt up to run at 3100rpm. I then changed the depth stop on the drill press so it would work to adjust the depth at rest so I could fix it at any depth and it would stay there. The cut was slightly smaller than 3/16",  so I  used duct tape for shims between the wheels to widen the cut, but it left uncut metal between the wheels and compressed with the heat slightly,  but found out I could work the cutoff wheel up and down with the depth control to clean up the width to match the existing factory cut and also remove the thin medians between the cuts. Using a piece of ¼" oak under the underlug, I clamped the barrel to the press table. Then I adjusted the table to the correct height and put a C-clamp on the drill press post under the table so it couldn't drop and left the table clamp loose so the table would swing back and forth. Got the cutoff wheel aligned where it needed to be and swing the barrel into the wheel and cut the slot for the latch.

Tomorrow I'll finish it up with a dremel grinding point to make the seat for the latch spring. I ordered a 357Mag ejector from Brownell's when I ordered the rest of the parts, so it should be a straight forward swap with two holes drilled in the underlug for the roll pins.

Ok, it's tomorrow and I'm done, and it actually works with no final tweaking!! I took one of my ¼" plexiglas trigger templates and C-clamped it against the underlug of an ejector barrel using the V in the latch shelf as one index point and the other edge flush against the bottom of the barrel where it meets the underlug, drilled thru the rear hole in the underlug into the plexiglas from the back side, then just did the same thing with the template clamped to the side of the extractor barrel and marked the position with a hand drill, then put it on the drill press and lined it up with the mark and drilled the hole.

The front hole was easy because it's not critical as it's just an anchor for the spring,  in fact, instead of using a BB, I just moved the hole back about 1/8" to put more pressure on the spring.

The hardest part was cutting the seat for the latch spring, but I took a que from H&R and used 15/64" bit that's slightly wider than the latch slot, that was enough to keep the drill bit from wandering down the slope cut by the cutoff wheel.

Did the usual polishing of the ejector and housing, put it all together and it was done.

For those that don't have a drill press, Harbor Freight is where I got mine, they have a couple for under $100, I have the less expensive one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38119

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44836







  UPDATE EJECTOR TO EXTRACTOR CONVERSION

Ok, the ejector to extractor conversion is done, I was able to make a standard factory style extractor out of my 35 Remington barrel, but in addition, I was able to add a spring to the ejector claw that makes it a positive extractor that also has a spring in it to push the empty out as far as possible until the ejector claw hits the frame, so no more sticking brass, and the case comes out ~.265" which is over .100" farther than a factory extractor making it easier to grab with gloves and if the case sticks, the spring will launch the case out of the chamber at the end of the barrel opening travel when the extractor takes over. I did used the same tool to cut the underlug slot, only the extractor slot is longer toward the pivot, I used a different edge of the template to duplicate the hole positions of a factory extractor underlug, only this time I had a transfer punch that I got from The Little Machine Shop. The spring is .550" long, .216" in diameter, of .022" wire.

If you just want a factory style extractor, all you have to order is the appropriate extractor claw, the cam extractor and the extractor spring, all are listed in the Handi Owner's Manual at H&R, the roll pins from an ejector will work for the extractor.

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/HR_NEF_HANDI_RIFLE_MANUAL.pdf

Tim

WARNING ON USED ROLL PINS



The upper ejector is the original with the coil spring shown ahead of it, below that is a factory extractor,
 the roll pin would be used in the forward hole(of the two holes behind the cam hole) for an extractor and in the rear hole(directly above it) if you use the ejector claw with a coil spring added. NOTE: I forgot and performed the conversion using a modified ejector that removed the little step on the front of the ejector, so the rear hole that prevents the ejector from flying out when the barrel is removed, should be just a tad lower than shown to clear that step on the unmodified ejector now shown.




Today I got wild and pulled the staked screw out of a generation 1 extractor on my 22-250, under it is a coil spring and latch button from an ejector underlug, I removed the rear keeper roll pin and put the latch button coil spring in the extractor housing ahead of an ejector claw and put the barrel back on the fluted 22-250, and it works  just like a gen2 extractor. Several of these extractors have been reported as failing to extractor stuck brass and have been returned for repair at H&R, the only thing I can see that may have failed is either a roll pin collapsed or the cam broke, it doesn't look the same as the cam in the gen2, looks like it may be pressed metal instead of cast or sintered steel.



 

Updated 1/22/2007

[Foggy]

You are a crafty old bird 

[Datil]

 Tim You turned into Gun designer, next a gun smith, and a machinist.
 Just Kidding Ol' Man   Just had to send you a smart remark!
 Good Luck, hope all works out ok. Marv.

[quickdtoo]

Nope, just a shadetree wantabe gunsmith/tinkerer!!

thx,

Tim

[Fred M]

Tim.
That sounds real good and having access to parts is great help. I always thought it could be done but I never had an extractor underlug.

Like we been saying there is nothing like an ejector on a hunting rifle or
shot gun. My new 20g SXS CZ Huglo came with an extractor, what a pain. Should have never bought it. If it did not shoot and point so well it would be going down the road.

A horizotal milling head with the right thickness would cut the slot better with no sparks. These cut off wheels don't last too long. If you ever go into production a custom cutting mill would be the way to go. You would have to install some water coolig for the cutter.

With the bigger inside race a bigger spring would really chuck out the fired case.

[quickdtoo]

Fred,

A mini mill would work great, but the $600 they cost isn't real cost effective to just do the few that the casual Handiholic might need/want to do, and I don't really plan on changing any more over, just doing the foot work so others will know how they might be able to do it with tools they already have or that aren't expensive to buy, tinkers stuff, ya know!

Thx,

Tim

[Fred M]

Yah I know, but I said if you ever go into production. EDM (electrical discharge machining) would even be bettter. You just sit back and let the computer do it's thing.

The best thing would be be if H&R provided an option. I would never buy another Handi with an extractor.

[quickdtoo]

Right now there are many here that won't buy an extractor barrel, at least not until they learn how to change one over.  I don't have a problem with em, they work very well for me, it's just a matter of getting use to em, my next project will be to use the extractor parts from this 357Mag barrel to convert my 35 Remington to an extractor.

Tim

[jdwolf]

No insults meant, just being honest, we all get there sooner or later.....hopefully!

My next project will be to use the extractor parts from this 357Mag barrel to convert my 35 Remington to an extractor.

Tim

Why convert an extractor to an ejector? Doesn't the extractor in the new Handi's work better than the ejector in the older rifles? Wasn't stuck cartridge casings a problem with the ejector?

[MikeP]

I believe you're correct. I like the security of extractors, since they are much less likely to stick or cause other problems. When hunting, I know I have one sure shot, and the ability to reload within a few seconds should another shot be needed. I always hunt with finger(tip)less gloves and hand-warmers anyway. If I wanted the ability to fire more quickly than that, I would use one of my repeaters: bolt, slide or semiautomatic.   

[MSP Ret]

No, stuck "cartridge casings" were ever a problem for me or the majority of others either, a clean, dry, smooth chamber and you were good to go. Some who were not knowledgeable complained, and some dummies complained about keeping their face directly behind the chamber when they opened it and getting hit with the empty brass (either real or IMAGINED!!!). The lawyers and H&R used those few complaints to change. Now we are all stuck with the lesser product. As has been said here more than once when this was happening and it was a major discussion on this board, be careful what you ask for, you may get it. Well they gave it to the few complainers, the whiners, and the uninformed, and to the rest of us too....<><....

[lonewolf5348]

Tim after all is said and done just let me know the cost of change over  $ : I get the 38-55 barrel out to your gun shop

[MSP Ret]

Tim, you are doing great and I believe you could have enough income from friends on this site alone to buy yourself a bunch of
new Handis by converting their extractor fitted barrels to ejector barrels. I know you can do it buddy, keep us posted....<><....


is it just my imagination or has the site been running slow for the last couple of days?> I thought it was just my computer at home but other sites I checked were running fine, checking in at work today I find this site is slow on this computer also...anyone else experiencing this? It really is a pain to click and wait and wait and wait...

[quickdtoo]

I believe the site is running slow due to the usage, the total guests and users on the site for the last week or so has been 300+ most of the day due to the holiday shutdown period, with that many people online, the little old server just can't handle it, hopefully Matt will get the new server online soon.

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Tim after all is said and done just let me know the cost of change over  $ : I get the 38-55 barrel out to your gun shop

Sorry Lonewolf, you're on your own, I don't want to make a business of this.

Tim

[lonewolf5348]

Tim: just kidding

[coyotejoe]

Yeah, we all have different notions. I've converted several H&R and Savage singles from ejector to extractor and much prefer them that way. Now, that said, my conversions do lift the fired case over 5/16", where as the new NEF extractors lift them barely 1/8" and yes, it is pretty durn hard to work those with gloves on. My objection the the original ejectors is that it is just a rude and crude way to get there, requiring a much more powerful spring than is needed in a proper design. By "proper design" I mean one in which the initial extraction is handled by a direct steel on steel mechanical extractor, just to break the case loose by 1/16" or less, then a very light spring can complete the ejection. When the spring alone is all you have it must be a very powerful spring since it must do the initial extraction as well, thus you have the abomination of an ejector which makes the gun hard to close, scrapes the breechface and throws brass into the next state and still sometimes fails to extract.  As for speedy reloads, if that were a concern I wouldn't have bought a singleshot in the first place. Even with a bolt or lever gun I usually lower the gun, open the action slowly and catch the fired case in my hand before chambering another round, so the way I operate them, my repeaters are just singleshots with an attached ammo carrier.

[stimpylu32]

Tim

Heres one for you to work on , a shift lever so i can have a ejector for hunting and an extractor for bench work . the best of both worlds .   

Better idea , i'll just buy a Handi in the same cal. with 1 an ejector amd 1 in an extractor . 

stimpy

[quickdtoo]

Ok, it's finished, I updated my original post.

Stimpy, I've had some ideas for a mechanical extractor that ejects too, but I don't have a plan that will actually work yet, but my mind is always running that thought around. I have a bunch of shotgun ejectors that I may sacrifice trying to make one when I convert the 35 Remington, just a thought.

Tim

[Cookiemann]

Not positive, but I think there is an SPR model Reminton that has selective ejection/extractor.  That's the only other site I have looked at lately.  Maybe you could find one in a shop/store and break it down to take a look.  My $.02.

cookie

[quickdtoo]

Cookie, won't be much chance of that for me, I've yet to see one in a store here.

Tim

[Fred M]

Quote by Coyotejoe.

My objection the the original ejectors is that it is just a rude and crude way to get there, requiring a much more powerful spring than is needed in a
proper design.

It is neither crude nor rude, it is cheap like the rifle, and that is what most people on this board are looking for. If you were to institude what you are sugesting the price would have to triple or more. The origional ejector had a workable system subject to some polishing and a little notch in barrel face to help out a stuck case after the chamber got really dirty.

If you want a better break open rifle with auto ejectors that will first break the case loose you need not to look in the H&R line but go for a Blaser, Ferlach, Kriehoff, Pritz, Sabatti, Merkel to name a few, alas you don't buy these for 200 bucks.

If you want a SS rifle with with a good ejection/extraction the
Ruger #1 is very affordable. Complaining about the H&R system is not going
to change anything, nor is H&R changing it. The only hope there is, they may provide an option, since they have all the tooling for the ejector.
I don't believe Tim's option is a viable one for most H&R troops. Myself I
would not go through all the trouble doing it I rather buy a proven trouble free
Ruger #1system.

[EVOC ONE]

Nice work, Tim.  Thanks for the effort and expense.

How about placing this in the FAQ?   

Joe

[fernie]

Great work, Tim! 

Thanks...

[coyotejoe]

Fred M, I respect your opinion but in this case you really are too quick to defend the handi rifle without first thinking things through. It really costs no more to build a good design than a poor one. One example would be the Savage 219 rifles. They were the least expensive centerfire rilfes of their time and had an ejector very much like the H&R, but with an improtant difference. The ejector latch had an upright leg which farther compressed the spring as the breech was opened. If the shell did not pop out easilly as the latch first released, opening the barrels farther would fully compress the spring into a solid tube, at which point that vertical leg of the latch would then provide leverage to force a stuck case free so that the spring could complete the ejection. All one need do with that design is to replace the spring with a lighter spring and a rod  of the right length inside the spring. In that way the direct mechanical extraction takes place at once and the light spring need only toss the case clear of the rifle, not clear over the fence. That is very similar to the way I have modified H&R ejectors to work by making a new latch with an upright leg to serve as an extractor and a light spring to carry the extractor on to it's maximum travel. If I can do this as an aftermarket modification with simple hand tools I sure don't see where it would be difficult or expensive for NEF to have built it that way in the first place. And why in heck did they not do something similar with their new extractors, just a spring to give the extractor a greater lift once the initial extraction has been done mechanically.
  Cheaply built and poorly designed are two different things. Yes handis are built cheap to sell cheap but that does not mean they have to be poorly designed. A rifle which requires a highly polished chamber, fully resized cases and reduced loads just to accomodate the ejector is a poor design. Not all gun owners are gunsmiths and the basic idea of the handi rifle is a rough and tumble sort of gun which should function in all enviornments with little care and maintenance. That it mostly does but for the ejector and that is why NEF went to extractors, but they still didn't get the design right, the new extractor has not enough travel to make reloading easy, especially with gloves. In a rifle that is cheaply built, good design is all the more important.

[quickdtoo]

How about placing this in the FAQ?  

Joe

That was my intent from the beginning.

Tim

[MSP Ret]

coyotejoe, your modification with hand tools sounds great. How about a little more info, schematics or drawings would be wonderful. That sound like a modification I would like to try...Thanks....<><....

[Fred M]

coyotejoe
From my recollection that Savage ejector was activated with the fore arm when the gun is broke open. That is how most European break open SS and double barrels work.

To do the same thing in a Handi they way the action is cast would require a well fitted cam since the opening of a Handi does not provide any rear ward
motion except for the ejector spring. The nutch to break the case loose would
have to come from a cam activated push rod.

I read your answer several times but can not comprehand how your system works. It would be nice if your simple ejector with simple tools could be done easy. One thing I do not have a Handi with an extractor that needs
a convertion. I wont buy one. I have 4 Rugers#1 and have washed my hands pretty well from buying H&R rifles. Besides my underlugs keep shooting loose at that is a pain too.

It is possible that the Savage ejector is patented and H&R did not want to infringe or buy the patent or pay royalties. One thing about the H&R ejector
it  works well with abit of polishing. The cases don't need to fly over the fence either if you hold your left hand  over the breech when opining the gun, you can catch the fired case in your glove hand. At least that the way I do it with my two Handi's.

[quickdtoo]

I added a pic of the pin template and added a detail that I omitted.

Tim

[MSP Ret]

I agree with Fred, my ejectors work well and I also use my left hand over the rear of the action when I open it to contain any errant brass. I would think if this procedure works both in Canada and the U.S. it should work with Handis just about anywhere else as well....<><....