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Author Topic: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!  (Read 3156 times)

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Offline trotterlg

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WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« on: January 31, 2008, 04:38:56 PM »
While doing the stubbing projects I have found that every single barrel breach I have worked with has been out of square with the bore.  They are out by at least .002 usually from side to side.  If someone has a barrel they can't get to shoot, I will pay the shipping one way back to you if you will send it to me so I can turn the breach square and put a new crown on it.  I will even parkerize it to fix up the spots where my tooling runs on it.  Only one please, and please have a target shot so we can get a before and after picture to see if this would do any good.  It will need to currently have a good tight lock up, I won't take off much metal, but it will make a slight difference.  Larry
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Offline MTGlass

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 05:30:55 AM »
I have a barrel that isn't exactly what you're looking for but your quest has inspired ???s

I have a 1995 .280 RMEF Ultra and I'm thinking of fitting the barrel to a a 2005 frame.  The .280 ejector barrel won't quite lock up on the newer frame.  Looks like the pivot radius needs releiving or the breech smoothed out.  I haven't checked headspace or even put a round through the .280 yet. 

I'm wondering if your proposal would lessen my fitting effort or exacerbate it.  I presuming you're only removing <= .002", right?
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 01:21:49 PM »
Larry, I would like to take you up on this offer. If you give me this weekend I will shoot a 100 yard group with a barrel I have and get back to you by early Sunday evening....<><....:)
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 01:28:59 PM »
It would help the fit of the .280 barrel, but I think I will try MSP if he can shoot a group to compare it with before and after.  It could be an interesting science experment.  Larry
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 02:00:08 PM »
Thanks Larry, I will shoot groups for comparison (baseline groups) at 50 and 100. The club with the 200 yard range is not available right now. I will shoot them with 2 barrels I have in mind and send you the worst barrel (largest groups)....<><....:) 
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 03:50:21 PM »
This will be fun, I will put it between centers and turn a concentric spot on each end of the barrel, then put a steady rest on the spot and face the breach and put an 11 degree target crown on the muzzel.  Parkerize the whole thing if you would like, or cold blue the tool marks after blending them all back to the barrel contour.  That will make a breach and muzzel exactly square to the bore.  Could be why some barrels won't shoot.  I have done as much as I can on my RF offset bore job (need the ammo to proceed) and am waiting on a 303 barrel for another project, so I have some down time.  Larry
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2008, 06:43:49 AM »
Larry, would it hurt the project, test if the bore were not perfectly centered on the muzzle end of the barrel?....<><....:)
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 07:34:22 AM »
Don't think so at all, when I am done the bore will be inthe center of the barrel.  Larry
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2008, 08:19:56 AM »
Wow!!! That's even better Larry, I am off to the range to get some baseline targets for comparison of before and after, Thanks....<><....:)
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Offline handirifle

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2008, 07:58:07 PM »
Larry
How do you do this?  Do you reface the breech?  If so, doesn't that leave a gap between the receiver and breech end of the barrel?
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Offline Jimbo47

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2008, 03:36:09 AM »
Common sense would say that if it locks up tight and you take off .002 from the chamber face, you will have to put back .002 in the form of a shim on the lug pivot.

Or build up the lug with a weld and machine to the proper tolerance, that is unless you can live with an .002 as a gap when locked up!

Curious myself as to what happens!
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2008, 04:08:17 AM »
OK, targets have been shot, decisions have been made and the barrel will be in the mail to you on Monday. PM sent with particulars....<><....:)
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2008, 06:08:33 AM »
When the breach is refaced only about .002 or so material is removed, only the high part is taken off, so when it closes up there is less gap as there is no high spot to hold it open.  I have done this with each stubbed project and have not had one that made any major difference in the lockup.  After facing them off they do have a more solid feel when they close, that, and the uneven factory face, is what leads me to think it may have something to do with some barrels never being able to shoot properly.  I am going to do two for MSP ret, (a .243 and a .280) he has already shot "before" targets with them, that should give a good indication of whether this will help accuracy or not.  We will see, could be a good science experment.  I will take pictures of the process on the lathe.  P.S. GB: I am doing this for free.  Larry
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Offline Jimbo47

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2008, 06:41:52 AM »
Makes sense since a high spot would cause the frame to flex upon closing with a tight fit, and thus be unstable because it's not meeting the other surface flush!

Interesting theory, and hope it proves your right!

Could put a whole new light on accurizing a Handi!
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2008, 01:29:38 PM »
Some before pictures of the subject barrels, the short fat one is the .280 and the long one is the famous .243 barrel, the bore not in the center of the barrel is obvious on the .280, we will fix that part, I will also plug some extra front sight holes.  The .243 looks good, we will see if it will shoot good after we finish it off.  I will post some pictures on the lathe when I get them there.  Larry





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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2008, 02:10:25 PM »
Ouch!!!, what great up close photography Larry. It looks as if I forgot to clean the .280 after I used it hunting on Maine this past season. They each did just get shot last weekend to get current baseline targets at 50 and 100 yards for each barrel for this, "the great experiment". Any idea yet on how far off the breech ends are from being square?...<><....:)
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 03:47:02 PM »
280 is done except for final finish and parkerizing.  The breach was off side to side about .0025 inches, I left just the slightest tool marks on the low side to avoid removing any more material than needed.  The muzzel was sort of triangle shaped when I turned it round consintric with the bore, put an 11 degree target crown on it and then blended the rounded part with the rest of the barrel.  Picturs below will probably tell the story.  The breach picture in the lathe is from the first cut, you can see the high side.  Also the breach was slightly concaved which I have never seen before.  Tomorrow the .243 barrel.  Larry







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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2008, 04:02:41 PM »
looking good Larry, you really are a craftsman. It seems YOU can turn a sow's ear into the proverbial silk purse!!!....<><....:)
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Offline handirifle

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2008, 04:23:17 PM »
Larry,
One more "non common sense" question.  Being VERY new to lathes, when you turn the breech end with the extractor cut out like that, does it cause any issue with the cutting tool crossing the extractor gap?

By the way, I'd love to get to be about 1/10 that good with a lathe.
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2008, 04:44:26 PM »
I am by far an expert at this but I would think he turns it in just a very small fraction at a time to keep it from catching. Dale
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2008, 04:59:52 PM »
The cuts are in the .0002 range, so it never even bumps on the cutout.  How I do it is that I lock the carrage, then I set the compond to a very low angle, I used 11 degrees, I then feed in using the compound, so an indicated .001 is really feeding in about .0001, so I can remove just a tiny amount at a time.  I also have finished up the .243 barrel.  Larry
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Offline handirifle

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2008, 05:07:00 PM »
Thanks.
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2008, 02:27:15 PM »
I am waiting for the wind do die down a little so I can go outside and sand blast these barrels so I can parkerize them.  While waiting I pulled a bullet from a .243 round I had so I could fire it and check the primer strike and the headspace.  The barrel locks up great on a frame I have, so does the .280 barrel, so I think NEF is getting better with the fittings.  It is also clear that the steel is different on these two barrels, the .280 machined much nice than the .243 did, the breach is not nearly as rough as it looks in the picture, but it is not as nice as the 280 finished.  Head space on the factory round I had to test was only about .0015 inches, this is after squaring up the breach, guess I should have checked before I started.  As soon as it calms down outside I will sand blast these and put them in the parekerizing tank.  Larry

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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2008, 02:37:25 PM »
Wow Larry, not only are you good, your fast!!! If you are ever looking for another career, after custom gunsmith/machinist, you could go into micro (or is it macro?) photography. Great pictures!!!....<><....:)
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2008, 02:39:26 PM »
I earn my real living doing it.  Larry
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2008, 03:37:51 PM »
Ah Ha!!! No wonder you are so good at it....<><....:)
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2008, 12:23:18 PM »
The 243 barrel is done and the 280 barrel is in the parkerizing tank, I will post some pictures in about an hour when I get them all dried and oiled up.  Larry
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2008, 12:47:43 PM »
pictures:





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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2008, 12:49:44 PM »
Very nice work, Larry!! ;)

Tim
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Offline rbergum95

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Re: WANTED,,,,One barrel that won't shoot!
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2008, 12:50:17 PM »
great job!!! cant wait to hear how they shoot!!

ron
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