Whar iz everybody?

[Calamity Jane]

Lawrdy it's quiet in here! Whar iz everybody? Ya'll out shootin yer cannons?  :shock:

Gotta be somebody wants ta talk 'bout cannons??!!

Spent 4 evenings this week with a adjustable hand reamer reamin the bronze barrel to take the steel sleeve. Started at 1.880" 'n' I'z up to 1.925" now - headed fer 1.998" - Who'd'a thunk it'd be such a PITA ta ream a 2" x 22" hole in bronze??!! Me shoulders ache sommit fierce!

So, what you fellers been up to (cannon-wise)?

Calamity (gettin shoulders like a linebacker) Jane

[Cat Whisperer]

CJ -
 You're right, entirely too quiet.  But to answer your question, I've got several projects going on, mostly building up all the capabilities to be able to machine black powder mortars.

 I made my first one back in '75 and the intervening two dozen plus, I've contracted my designs to be CNC made.  Now I'm at the point where I want to tweek the designs (done in CAD) and make minor modifications of the iron itself.

 So, I'm waiting for a couple of ebay orders to arrive for the gizmo's to hold the boring bars.  I have a local source for 4140 steel rounds and will probably continue to have the production models made on CNC by a local shop.

I'm either going to make or buy a radius cutter for the lathe so I can cut the breach end of the mortars and make my own moulds.

So other than mowing the lawn (it's rained for two weeks straight until now) it's hurry up and wait for tooling and work on designs (like for a striker to ignite the mortar by lanyard and percussion cap).

[Calamity Jane]

NEAT! Sounds like quite a project!

I have been struggling with yahoo/geocities - trying to update my Web page - but the File Manager was gone - and I wanted to start posting project pictures. I have E-mailed them 3 times in the past week with no response so I spent the last 2 hours over there 'n' finally figured out what was wrong!

So, there's cannon-building pictures now at http://www.geocities.com/diannebest/Cannon/Cannon.html

(The problem has to do with multiple "screen names" which USED TO BE linked - sign in on one and you could access them all. Now the link is broken and you can't get the file manager unless you log in with the user name the page was created under.)

Anyway, if you want to see an old woman working up a sweat, you can see me hand reaming a 2" diameter hole 22" deep!

Keep yer powder dry!

CJ

[Cat Whisperer]

CJ -
  Love your website!  You're in the middle of a genuinely comprehensive project.  
  I can't say that I know anything of the types of steel that are specifically used for liners.  I've chosen to use 4140 because it's so much stronger than CRS out of fear.  (I have seen a bronze cannon explode - from 10' away).  At least 1018 won't have the brittleness of the casting.
  You might want to make precise measurements right after making it that can be repeated at intervals to check the stretching of the metal.  If it's stable I would be much more confident that if it were to grow in inside diameter (near the breach).

  Also look at the Coehorn idea of having a powder chamber (to allow more thickness of steel where the pressure is greatest.  It takes a little more care (using a small scoop open on one side) to get the powder into it but it does provide a little more steel for safety.

  Are you going to use an hydraulic press to assemble the tube and liner?
What class of fit are you planning?

[Double D]

Well someone had to man the front lines and defend the homeland!

Can I ask why you don't have the chunk of brass in a lathe to drive the reamer...that looks like a ton of work.

[Calamity Jane]

CW: I was considering 4130 but it wasn't available in the size I needed unless I bought a full length ($$$$$) - the original intent was to make the whole barrel out of 4130.

I did a lot of research on 1018, especially after someone expressed concern over its "notch toughness". The "bottom line" on 1018 was that there had been one particular batch from one particular foundry (La Selle) a number of years ago that had a problem.

1018 is "a graded steel" (meaning the foundry has to watch the composition and lab-test each batch), low carbon, with very good yield strength in the unannealed state, often used for structural members and "rifle barrels" is listed as one of the recommended applications.

With a wall thickness of 1/2" and a breech plug depth of 1" it should have lots of strength. The 660 bronze barrel with a wall thickness of 3/4" (at the breech) won't add much strength but the leaded bronze should contibute some to the impact strength of the steel.

I used a figure of 30,000 PSI for my calculations - a figure that came from chamber pressures in testing of blackpowder rifles - and the 1018 with 1/2" wall checks out pretty good. If anybody has chamber pressures from an actual cannon, please let me know!

I do LIKE the idea of making a plug gauge and watching the breech diameter - I will do that!

I considered a powder chamber but decided against it for a couple of reasons: #1 - a chamber creates a "minimum powder load", being the amount of powder required to fill the chamber; #2 - I was concerned about charging the powder - how to ensure that the chamber was always full and there were no air spaces behind the ball; #3 - I don't have a lot of faith in my ability to drill thru the barrel, thru the sleeve, and hit the chamber in exactly the right spot - I am not a very good machinist - without a chamber, I only have to be accurate in one plane while drilling the fuse hole (to meet the junction of the bore and the breech plug).

To fit the liner into the barrel, I am aiming for a "press fit" of 0.001" per inch. The sleeve is 2.000" diameter and I am reaming the bronze to 1.998". Again, because I don't trust my own machining abilities, I am going to run a pin thru the bronze immediatly behind the sleeve to ensure it doesn't creep backwards in the bronze (the pin will go thru from the bottom, where it is out of sight, and will be blind at the top). I also know that the bronze will expand more than the steel with heat so my press-fit will loosen off as the cannon gets hotter.

I considered lots of different ways of retaining the sleeve in the bronze but don't have the tooling to do anything "fancy".

Double D: I WISH I could have done the 2" ream in the lathe but I ran into 2 problems. #1 - when I mount my home-made V-block on the cross-slide of my old South Bend, the center of the 4" diameter bronze is above the center of the chuck - not enough "swing over cross-slide"; #2 - if I turn the reamer any faster than about 20 RPM, it chatters in the bronze and my lath will not go slow enough.

You guys are GREAT! It's good to have folks to chat with about my project, especially folks who know something about cannon construction!

I am looking forward to finishing the reaming of the 1.998 hole so I can move on to other, more FUN things, like turning the trunnions and the barrel!

CJ

[Double D]

Cj,

Well you should be below 20 RPM with your current setup...

Did you look at our Black cannon shooting safety rules at the head of this forum?  Tells how to make a liner there.  Sounds like to me the hidden  ESP icon we put in it,  sent out the subliminal messages and  got to you because you are making the the liner right.

I usually dig around in the machine shops and can come up with something.  A lot of the shops will have what they call shorts. left over pieces from some job and will sell them cheap.   You can also buy shorts from http://www.metalexpress.net/  an 88 lb 4 inch piece 24 inches long of 4130 will only cost you $172 plus shipping.....

[Cat Whisperer]

CJ -

 From your responses you've obviously thought this one through.  Please take my questions as having the intent of warrenting safety and not as criticisms.

  I shouldn't mention this, but I did pick up a 2-7/8 x 6 foot length of 4140 for $5.00 last month.  But it's not everyday you see a machine shop selling out.  From my normal supplier I've been getting it for about $20 a foot, cut into 6" lengths.

Press fit sounds like a good deal for strength.  From loading bullets it's obvious that the grip of the area of contact holds the bullet int he case much better than a crimp.

 You've taken on quite a project.  Especially the depth of the bore.  I bought an 18" long drill bit for starting the bores on some mortars - which I consider to be very very deep.

Don't assume that we know much about cannon construction.  Rather learn to ask the right questions and check the validity of the answers from several sources.

I would love to run the FEA (finite element analysis) program to analyse the pressures of firing a cannon - but it will have to wait until I learn how to use it.

[Calamity Jane]

Well you should be below 20 RPM with your current setup...

FUNNY MAN!

I read everything I could find on the Internet before I decided to take on the project. I also printed off a lot of the safety info and put it in my cannon file for future reference.

As for "shorts" I get most of my material in Winnipeg (Manitoba), the only large city for many hours drive and there's only one place that sells shorts and doesn't have a minimum order, so we pay a permium price. I'm not much of a "shopper-around-er" - I don't have a lot of free time and I'd rather spend it doing something I enjoy, so I buy where I can find it (assuming the price isn't totally out of line). For the cannon sleeve in a shootable model, I also wanted material that came with papers, so that eliminated "scrounging".

CW: No offence taken! I work in engineering so I tend to be rather "anal retentive" anyway - I want to see "the numbers work" before I build something with an element of danger. I also know that 90% of the people don't do that.

ask the right questions and check the validity of the answers from several sources

- good practice! That's how I found out about the source of the "notch toughness" question.

Well, off for lunch shortly and then back to reaming    Maybe I'll have a good day and hit 1.998 this afternoon! (Why do I feel like I'm drilling for oil?  :shock: )

Calamity (the reamer power supply) Jane

[Double D]

Ah yes engineers...Winchester 100 and 88.

Ah yes Gunsmith....John Browning anything.

[Calamity Jane]

Whal, I gived up on the hand reamer! After 4 days of shoulder-aching work, progress was slow. I cobbled together a mount and moved the reaming to the lathe  :eek: As well as saving my aching arms, using the power feed gives a nice finish. (Sounds like a good enough excuse to me  :shock: ) It'll still take awhile but at least it's not sweat dripping in your eyes work anymore.

CJ

[Double D]

Keep at lady, you are doing just fine...al ot of time the Tim Allen school of thought will just cause problems...but not this time...

[Calamity Jane]

Hummmmm, done got quiet in here agin.....

... whal, since nobody else's got anythang ta say, I'll open me big trap  :shock:

After lawrd knows how many hours, I got the bronze barrel reamed to 1.998 at the entrance end 'n' 1.995 at the exit end - all supposed to be 1.998! Guess I'll hone a bit 'n' see if I kin get it evened out; maybe run the reamer thru a couppla times from the opposite end (without changing the setting.

(Gotta admit, I'z gettin me chest puffed out a bit.... I ain't much of a machinist 'n' usually figger 10 thou is purdy close, so I'm pleased as punch ta be gettin so close to 1.998  :? )

Figger I'll drill thru the bronze fer the trunnions 'n' then ream the holes to size before I start turnin the barrel or push in the sleeve.

After I push the sleeve into the barrel, I'm wonderin if I otta drill the fuse hole while I still got a straight, cylindircal barrel - it'd be easier ta mark off the location and get the angle right than after I turn the taper on the barrel.

Lets see if I can explain how this thing is going together - maybe some of you fellers can forsee a problem I haven't.

The barrel is a bronze tube, 4" OD, 2" ID, 24" long.

The sleeve is 2" OD x 22" steel, which will get pushed into the barrel. I'm figgerin on pushing the sleeve to 1" from the breech end of the bronze tube.

I have machined a plug to fit the muzzle end of the sleeve and the plug has a center drill hole to accept the dead center on the lathe.

To complete the breech end of the barrel, I plan to turn a bronze plug that will be pressed and pinned to the barrel with a center drill hole to act as the other center for turning. I'm thinking of using the bronze breech plug to clamp the lathe dog while turning the barrel. The breech plug will become the ... what's the word? ... the fancy knob on the breech end of a barrel.

Since the barrel is too big to chuck in the lathe, I haven't figgered out how I am going to finish the very end of the knob - unless I remove the bronze breech plug after the rest of the barrel has been machined, finish machining the plug, and then reinstall it.

Any other ideas?

Anything I ain't though of?

Calam

[Cat Whisperer]

CJ -

Sorry it took so long.  Busy week at work and helping a neighbor put up gutters (3 story house).

With the hole in the bronze cut to size and the barrel cut to size, are you going to use anything to lubricate and ease the insertion AND/OR are you going to use anything to glue the two together.  (Liners on barrels (.22, .25-20 and so on) are sometimes epoxied together.)

How big are the trunions in relationship to the steel tube?  I.e.: will there be one piece for the trunions that runs crosswise to the barrel that also has a hole in it for the liner?  If not, will the two pieces be press-fit or threaded into the bronze?

Fuse hole thinking sounds reasonable.

On the piece to insert into the muzzel with the lathe-center in it - is it designed for easy removal once the tube is turned?  Will it have a sllight taper on it to ease the insertion of the liner into the tube?

DD knows the term for that knob thing on the breach - he's used it before.  Turning it so that it looks right will make or break the looks of the tube.  There is a tool called a radius cutter made just for lathes.  On ebay they run 300-400 bucks, over a grand new.  I'm thinking of building one so I can cut the spherical radius on the end of my mortars.

[Calamity Jane]

Hey, thanks Cat!

I'm thinkin I'll push the liner in pretty much dry 'cause I'm a little worried about it "creeping" when the cannon gets hot and the bronze expands more than the steel. I'm gonna heat the bronze (wrapped in fiberglass with a lightbulb inside) and mic the I.D. If the fit is gonna be tight, I may opt fer some oil. Fit it looks like it's gonna be a REAL loose fit when the bronze is hot, I jist might tin it with hard solder 'n' solder 'er in.

I got no faith in epoxy's ability to withstand heat and/or shock - it don't do neither.

Me trunnions is gonna be threaded (1" NF) into the barrel (bronze). Waz gonna do a push fit but (shock loading agin) figgered threaded is less likely to try ta twist out. The two trunnions will be individual pieces.

The temporary "muzzle plug" is a snug fit into the liner, with a shoulder so it don't go in too far. If'n it decides to be a PITA comin out, I'll drill it, tap it, 'n' use the slidehammer on it!

I'm familiar with radius cutters - seen 'em but never used one.

I'z got a good eye 'n' will probably free-hand the knob on the cascabel (sp?) - it's a bit of werk, but less than building a radius cutter!

Ta-ta for now....

CJ

[Cat Whisperer]

Ya got the spelling right!

Main Entry: cas·ca·bel
Pronunciation: 'kas-k&-"bel
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, literally, small bell
Date: 1639
1 : a projection behind the breech of a muzzle-loading cannon
2 : a small hollow perforated spherical bell enclosing a loose pellet

You might want to measure the ID of the bronze and OD of the steel at two temperatures - one hot and one cold.  Just a thought.

[Cat Whisperer]

Another thought.  WOW - two in a day!

You might want a small chamfer on the corner of the end of the iron tube so it doesn't have a sharp edge on which to catch when pressed into the bronze tube.

[Double D]

Whoa Nelly er ah CJ!!! Don't start yet.  

First forget using a center plug in the bore to center for turning, especially brass.   It will move, gall and deform.  Been there, done that. Use a bull nose center.  I have one.  If turning is a month or two a way I might even be up loaning you mine.  All depends on me finding a house and getting moved

If you can't shrink that liner in just get some Brownells acraglas and glue the liner in.    A lot thinner walled higher pressure rifle barrel liner are slip fit and glued in all the time.  In standard practice in the business.

you have fretted about asafety all the way through this project not needlesy but not as important as the one you just brought up  the Trunnions.

You trunions worry me.  Are they going to shear off when fired.  They should thread into the barrel. The trunnion should be large that then thread.  At the junction of the barrel and trunion should be a flat boss where the trunnion seats full flat against the barrel.   The trunions should be soldered or brazed in place.

I will write more later on how I turned the cascabel.  Time to get ready for work.

[Double D]

I first considered swapping ends and holding the finished muzzle in the chuck to form the cascabel.  I did some measuring. The muzzle would fit the chuck.  But my Steady rest wasn't big enough.

So I decide that I would do it with the set up I had for turning the rest of the barrel.  When I grabbed the stock in the chuck I allowed extra for the cascabel and clearance for working my tools into a small diameter from a large diameter stock.

Cutting the cascabel was the very last turning operation before tube came off the lathe.

I turned the profile of the back of the gun, then the concave for the part that attaches the cascabel to the back of the gun.  The I turned the inner arc of the cascabel to finish diameter.  I then turned a long cylinder the diameter of the cascabel, making enough clearence to get my Parting tool in.  I ran the parting tool in almost all the way then stopped. I put padding on the lathe bed and blocked the tube a bit so it wouldn't drop.  I then finished cutting through with a hack saw.  

Next I put a rod in a vise and slipped the tube over it and finished shaping the cascabel with a file

[Calamity Jane]

DD Thanks fer the info on turning the cascabel - that's about how I figgered it would have to go.

As fer the "muzzle plug" - that fits into the steel liner and mates with the center in the tailstock. I ain't worried about gauling the bronze there - as a  matter of fact, the plug allows me to machine the face of the muzzle down even with the steel liner.

I puzzled mightily over how to do the trunnions. I would like to have run a steel threaded rod right thru the bronze barrel, right thru the sleeve, and out the other side but I did not want to compromise the integrity of the liner.

I now have the bronze drilled and tapped 1" NF for the trunnions.

After turning the barrel, I will fly-cut a square shoulder on the barrel to accept a boss on the trunnions.

I can either cut the trunnions with a male thread to screw directly into the barrel or I can make the trunnions with a 1" NF hole and mount them with a steel stud. The stud would probably be the stronger of the two but I don't know if it is necessary or is "over kill"

Well, the barrel has been sitting out in the shop since last night, wrapped in fiberglass with a heater. It's time to head to the shop and insert the sleeve. Don't know how hot it has gotten - if it's hot enough, the sleeve should slid right in; if it's not hot enough for a "slip fit", then we'll push it in.

Wish me luck!

Calamity Jane

[Double D]

I was thinking you were going to use the bronze plug as a dog center to drive the barrel for turning.  That will never work.  For a tails tock center it might work, but will loosen up. You will have watch it close and keep the tail stock tight. It will be a pain.  Keep you cuts light.  

My live center is threaded so you can make a center to fit. It comes with what's called a CNC center. Instead of being 30 degrees it's a pointy 60 degrees, so you can work in close.  Wouldn't work on the tubes I have made because it's to small, it's just an idea.

For holes greater that 3/4 inch to about 6 inch I have a bull nose center I picked up,

There are two up for bid on Ebay

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2545771292&category=1272

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2546048850&category=41944

The second one looks more like my center, except mine is older and used more. Hinting awfull hard here, from experience.

DD

[Calamity Jane]

I started runnin the sleeve into the bore with my 6 ton jack and a chain. The sleeve has a very slight taper for about the first 1/2" to get it aligned 'n' it pressed in fairly easy fer the first couppla inches 'n' slowly stared to tighten up. I drove it a couppla more inches with the sledge before me stubbornness subsided 'n' I said to meself "This is too tight!"

Then I tried ta get the sleeve back out by drivin it with a bar from t'other end. It went a ways 'n' kept gettin tighter. Even heatin the bronze tube with the torch wouldn't get 'er free. I may have mushroomed the end of the sleeve a bit drivin it with the bar.  :roll:

In any even, I'm in a pickel now with the sleeve 6" into the bronze 'n' tight as he!! :evil:

I left a message fer me friend who's got a 50 ton shop press. When I get a hold of him, I'll see if we can't press the sleeve out.

When my machinist friend (used-to-be-friend?) told me "0.001 per inch" for a press fit, I don't think he was considerin it had ta go in 22" !!!  :shock:  

Got a real nice memento now to - a big triangular burn on me forearm from the hot bronze.

Somehow my enthusiasm fer cannon-buildin's at a low ebb right now....

CJ

[Cat Whisperer]

CJ -

"In the belly of a whale" comes to mind.  I think you've just earned the Master's Level qualification in cannon building.

So how far is the steel embedded ?  I wuld think that hydraulic pressure is going to be the key to removing it.

So when the situation cools down (I can think of several choice ways of saying it that shouldn't be repeated here) we want to know how the dilemma is resolved.

[Calamity Jane]

Whal, the 50-ton press took the 22" sleeve to within 6" of all the way in. (My friend felt more comfortable pushing it in rather than out and his press didn't have the reach to remove the sleeve.)

I finally tracked down a machine shop with a 100 ton press and dropped the "assembly" off there tonight. I explained to the foreman what had been done and he said they will try pressing it home. If it gets too close to the capacity of their press, he said they'll turn it around and press it out. He was very sympathetic - I guess even the best machinists get their t!t in a wringer once in awhile. He said the 0.001"/1" was appropriate for a press fit and felt we just ran out of press capacity because of the 22" depth. I suspect that, even if they have to press the sleeve out, they will probably clean things up, adjust as necessary, and then push it home for me - they seemed to think a cannon was a neat project!

With the liner taking >50 tons to push it home, I don't think I have to worry about it moving when firing!

I'll let ya know how it goes.

CJ

[Cat Whisperer]

Don't use force, just grab a bigger hammer!



We had some 600 ton presses where I used to work....

[Calamity Jane]

Yup, yer right Cat!

I went and picked up my barrel from the machine shop today. The got the liner pushed in all the way. It took 65 tons, 15 tons more than my friend's press yesterday was able to develop.

What a relief! I was afraid I was going to go in there and see my $300 piece of bronze laying in pieces! So, it cost me $60 to have it pushed the last 6" - that's $10 an inch!  :shock: (Com'on fellers! I kin hear ya snickerin!)

I'm glad to have that part of the job done. I don't think I will have to worry about that liner moving when firing the cannon; not when it takes 65 tons of pressure - that'd be one he!! of a RECOIL!  :eek:

Anyway, gotta put the cannon project aside for a few days 'n' learn some blacksmithing. I promissed a friend a wrought iron rifle stand and that will give me some practice before I start the 10,000 little forged fittings for my cannon carriage.

See you fellers later!

Calamity (de-pickled) Jane

[Cat Whisperer]

CJ -
  Certainly GOOD NEWS!!

BUT - watch out doing that wrought iron work - I've heard it's dangerous.  Get back to something safe - like making cannons - soon.


It'll be interesting to see how much the assembly was torchered and wrinkled in the process.

[Calamity Jane]

torchered and wrinkled

Please explain!

CJ

[Cat Whisperer]

It's my bet with the pushing pulling and hammering that the assembly is not as straight as it once was.  Dial inidator will tell.  I just think that was a lot of tonage applied (though necessary).

I don't think it's cause for concern, nor do I think it'll affect accuracy (as stresses in a match rifle barrel will cause it to warp slightly when warming up.)

[Calamity Jane]

Oh, ok, so that's whacha meant.....

The sleeve is 2" OD 1" ID, so it's purdy heavy. I doubt thar waz much distortion.

Only thang that's got me worried is the amount of tension in the bronze now. (Lemme see, 2" ID, 22" long; that's 138 sq. inches; 65 ton is 130,000 Lbs, so that's 942 Lbs/sq. inch; the bronze is 3/8" in the thinnest spot 'n' 22" long, so that's a cross section of 8.25 sq. in so that's a tension of 114 Lbs/sq. in. - I guess it ain't so bad after all.)

It's gonna be one of the heaviest thangs I'z spun in me lathe - about 100 Lbs I think so I guess we'll turn it slow!

Werking up me nerve now to layout 'n' drill the fuse hole - I better NOT screw that up!

CJ