Author Topic: .410/45LC barrel and slug ? (Read 5884 times)

JerryKo · « **on:** February 20, 2008, 06:20:03 AM »

Boy am I confused.

The barrel is rifled,which I do not think matters much for the .410 part of it, but the choke tube is not smooth nor is it rifled like a rifled choke tube would be. Rather it has deep straight grooves. C.S. said not to use rifled slugs because the barrel is rifled. They also said to use the saboted ammo for rifled slug guns. But if the choke is of straight grooves how will this work?

?

Sorry to ramble, but the question is has anyone had this barrel and used .410 slugs and which type. Thanks for any help.

JerryKo

PS I was also told that they get 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inch groups in their 100 yard facility with Rem 240 ammo.

? Not sure if lead or jacket ,but I doubt this barrel would be capable of this at 25 yds. Or maybe I just got pumped full of sunshine the whole call.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2008, 07:39:22 AM »

Jerry it was my understanding that the choke tube was for shot shells to stop them from twisting when I shot(Wolf) slugs out of it I left the choke tube out and did not get much better accuracy at 40yrds than I do with my smooth bore I think it's blowing smoke up your butt if they said they got that accuracy. I 've heard that from 50yards which it will do. All my testing was done with a few of the 450 Mongo rounds I played with and that was not many. Let me know what comes of your testing cause for some reason after selling you that one I went out and bought another cept this was is all nickle I guess that's part of the disease. Kurt

JerryKo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2008, 07:52:24 AM »

Kurt,

That sounds about right for the "ism "we all have. I laughed when I read your reply. Maybe we can compare notes with the mungo, it sounds interesting. I read up some on the survival guy's site and shootersforum. I was shooting some 45lc power level out of the 454 starline brass I have, but until I get another rail and red dot or scope I do not plan on doing any accuracy testing of it. The 3" 7 1/2's were unfailing at 25 yard hand thrown clays. I was very impressed with that at least, as I was writing the shot gun part off at the 15 yrd mark or less. I've been looking for some 444 marlin brass but cant find any locally. I'll have to order next time. I read that the rifling is too shallow to use even hard lead. And the only Rem factory loading I can find for 45lc is lead. Go figure. No 240 grain factory. Lots of smoke today.

JerryKo

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:35:49 AM »

I'd be willing to bet that who ever you talked to was referring to their standard for accuracy for all of their rifle barrels, but I wouldn't apply it to the 410/45C barrel. I'd slug the bore and see what dimensions you come up with near the end of the rifling and find a cast bullet that's .001"-.002" larger than the groove diameter and load em up. Beartooth has a 265gr Keith PB cast bullet sized to .452" ,.453", .454", .455", .4555", .456" and .457", certainly you should be able to find one that is a good fit.

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

JerryKo · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2008, 12:45:51 AM »

.452 slugged.

I expected smaller, but I quess this is why we should slug em.

So I need .453 or .454

Anybody ever use the rem .454 round noses?

Jerry

Owlnmole · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2008, 05:47:56 AM »

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but isn't the whole point of .410/.45LC the fact that you can shoot .45LC through a rifled barrel and not have to use rifled slugs?

If you want to shoot .410 shot and .410 slugs, wouldn't a regular .410 shotgun be the way to go?

BTW, that little Pardner Compact with the straight stock would make a fine camp/survival/truck gun, IMHO. In 20 gauge it would give even big predators pause, regardless of how many legs they have.

JerryKo · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2008, 06:29:31 AM »

Quote

If you want to shoot .410 shot and .410 slugs, wouldn't a regular .410 shotgun be the way to go?

Ya, your're right, and it packs more punch if hand loaded in 45lc , but it was one of those "what if I had this, then what?", questions. I have a reg 410 smoth bore to use also. My son has the 20ga pardner w/adj stock in photo. He used a gauge mate to shoot 410's and took his first squirrel at 5yrs young. Is that why you referred to the pardner, because of the picture, or just speaking of them in general? I never really considered it since it is his., but it would make a good packer.

I see your interest in a compact gun, one other thing I can mention is the 410/45lc feels lighter than the 357mag barrel I have. The 410/45 is also only 20". They only come with a bead,but as someone has done to mine, it was drilled and tapped for scope rail or receiver peep. Still want to accuracy test with 45lc brass at 50 yards. The adj stock interfers with forward monted open sights but with a peep it would be easy to sight thru. My son, even with a smaller cheek has to aim lower with the adj stock. I hope this is useful.

JerryKo

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 29, 2008, 05:30:24 AM »

I have one of these barrels and just to see, bought some used 460 S&W cases from a pawn shop, and they fit very well. Now have to find the time to try this out, but want to send the barrel back to have it drilled and tapped. Has anybody done this work up?

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #8 on:** March 01, 2008, 04:38:52 AM »

Not sure on the 460 but if ya search 45/410 you'll find information . Kurt

JerryKo · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2008, 08:13:32 AM »

Well,...I finished fire forming 5 444 cases and got two that only partially formed. I guess pressure was not high enough with the 2fg. I did manage to chrony one round. It clocked at 1601 fps 10ft from muzzle. I expected closer to the 2k mark, but I guess a lot was spent forming the cases. I could fit more powder in if I use drop tube, but will probably just use some 5744 for low pressure 45/70 load. I have lots of cleanshot, I've been trying to use, I'll see if I can get it to work. The ones that did fire form look real nice, but I'll have to measure to make sure. Grouping was just about 2" at 25 yds. Can't really expect much considering I was fireforming. Actually that is pretty darn good come to read it. I'll load some more up to get at least 10 good ones I can really start to load for. I still have to order my beartooth bullets. Maybe tonight.

I like calling it 45SLC for Super Long Colt. Or maybe 45 ELC extremely long colt.

I decided to post here instead of the show your hadi thread.

The three good ones are on the right.

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2008, 08:17:02 AM »

Good work Jerry!!

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2008, 08:17:57 AM »

Keep these posts coming JerryKo, they are very interesting....<><....

how about calling it the .45JLC... .45 Jerry's Long Colt.......

JerryKo · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2008, 08:24:25 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on March 01, 2008, 08:17:57 AM

Keep these posts coming JerryKo, they are very interesting....<><....

how about calling it the .45JLC... .45 Jerry's Long Colt.......

I can't take credit, but like the idea.

I was even thinking TLC course its not tender loving at all. Too Long Colt. I'll have to post two cases side by side 45lc and this one for scale.

JerryKo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 01, 2008, 09:38:09 AM »

Just spoke with bear tooth bullets, 4-6 week backlog! Guess I'll order some .455 remington's and a sizer kit. I'll size down to 454 and use lee liquid alox, since I hear the lube on these bullets from remmy is messy. Anybody every go from .459 to .454 in one step. I'm not concerned with decreasing lube channels, that's what the liquid alox is for. Just not sure if I need a .457 sizer first, and I have thousands of .459 lasercasts stocked up. I have a rcbs lubersizer, but would rather just use the lee kits.

JerryKo

JerryKo · « **Reply #14 on:** March 01, 2008, 02:41:20 PM »

Here are the comparisions: I think if it goes well it should excede 454 ballistics with lower pressures. Exocitic 45/70

And I also found out that the Hornady brass is as much as 1/8" shorter than the Remington. I'll be sticking with the Rem brass.

JerryKo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2008, 09:48:48 AM »

Update, I fired the 4 fireformed brass (mangled one during seating step)with starting load of H4198 and 250gn XTP. Got about 1.75" at 25yds. Not great but they were only partially fireformed to begin with. With that starting load(444 marlin) I chronied in the mid 1800's. That is about 300fps slower than book values. Probably from increased volume of case to 45 chamber.

I tried a new receipe for ten more pieces to fire form with XMP-5744 and the 200 gr lasercasts. It still was not enough to fully fireform the brass, clocked in the high 1300's. I guess there is a lot of brass to form and its using up all the pressure. Have to use more next time.

The neat thing is the partially formed ones form from the base of the bullet and "grow" toward the head. Just never thought about how the pressure builds before, and effects the weakest part of the brass.

Have been working on the low sides of things for now, if I can get some better consistency with the foreforming, and find some accuracy, then I would load carefully to shy of max 444 loads.

JerryKo

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2008, 10:09:50 AM »

Did you try a heavy crimp? The Lee FCD would shine in that respect I would think.

Tim

JerryKo · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2008, 10:23:13 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on March 03, 2008, 10:09:50 AM

Did you try a heavy crimp? The Lee FCD would shine in that respect I would think.

Tim

Yes, I am using the Lee FCD for 45LC. It is screwed way out, but I am getting a very good firm crimp with it. I think I am just using too light of loads for the fireforming. I got higher velocity ,fireforming, with the 2fg BPS than I did with the 5744. But those 4 butes I have shot with the H4198 should start to shine. I am going to load next with the starting load of H4198 and see what the vel diff will be between the formed and unformed ones. After that (minus any accidents)

I should have enough like brass to go for the accuracy part.

I'll repost when I get some better results.

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2008, 10:53:08 AM »

Be careful loading too hot in the 410/45Colt barrel, it's not 4140 chrome moly, it's 1137 mild steel, pressures should be kept below that of the 30-30 to be safe. It's likely even more critical when the barrel is drilled and tapped for a scope base.

Tim

JerryKo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 03, 2008, 01:21:55 PM »

I did not know that. Point taken. Thanks for the info Tim. I guess that will lower my expectations, but hopefully I can still get it shooting accurately. Is max on 30-30 42k?

So far I have been below that, at least by the books. I was actually looking to keep between 35-38k, so maybe I'll still be Ok, as far as power level.

JerryKo

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2008, 01:57:09 PM »

Yes, 42kpsi, but I don't know if you can get there due to the bullet jump to the lands, dunno how far it is since I don't have one.

That may be part of the reason you're not getting fully formed brass.

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

JerryKo · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:24:04 PM »

I was thinking of that with the pressures and the jump. All the more reason for a firm crimp. I don't think I can even find a long enough bullet to take up this space. I think I am still .5"-.75" from the rifling. I liked the beartooth 340 grainers for the length. I need to get a casting. Never fooled with that yet.

And I just can't believe out of all those handis, you don't have this barrel. Maybe that should tell me something.

Jerry

As an aside: My 45LC loads clock just under 1100fps in my 5 1/2 in Vaquaro. Out of this barrel it is varied in the 700fps range.= less pressure. Maybe due to the jump.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2008, 02:42:14 PM »

I get 1900fps+ in the 20" 45Colt BC Carbine barrel with the 250gr Speer GDHP and 250gr SST with a max Ruger/FA load of Lil'gun, I can reach the rifling with either.

Tim

JerryKo · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2008, 03:01:21 PM »

Ya, ya I know. I still never got that one. Not sure why?

I have a habit of making it hard on myself.

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2008, 03:02:04 PM »

JerryKo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2008, 01:32:30 AM »

Got my sizing kits for .457 and .454. Definitely have to do in steps to get the .459's down to .454. However it seems that .454 is going to be too large to fit chamber. This chamber must taper ever so slightly at about the 1.75" from the breech. I can't get them into the chamber without having to the close the action hard a few times. So.... not sure if a .453, which according to my slugged bore, will chamber or not. Even the .452's were a little tight, but thumb pressure usually worked followed by a good fast closing of the action. I might trim a few pieces down so I get a better fit with the .454's and just see if the groups are any better or not, with the oversized casts. If not I'm back to using .452 jacketed.

If I take a bullet and place in the mouth of a fired case, the bullet falls right on in. It is after resizing flaring, and then seating the bullet, that I get the issue of hard to chamber. So I think I simply need a better way to size than with a 454 carbide die. never thought till just now, but I should not have resized my brass yet. Those .454's should give a good neck tension without sizing. Guess I'll load some .452's, fire and test some 454's afterward. Sorry to ramble, just putting my thoughts out there.

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2008, 05:44:29 AM »

I've had issues with the flare preventing a round from chambering, you can either run the loaded round into cartridge sizing die with the decapping rod removed or use a Lee factory crimp die, how you're gonna get there with a .454" bullet in a .444 case will take a little yankee engineering!!

Tim

JerryKo · « **Reply #27 on:** March 08, 2008, 09:04:20 AM »

Success!!

Ok at least I can fit the chamber. I fired four that were loaded with 452 jacketed, put a slight flare to set the 454 lead ran it thru the crimp die and.....well it chambered of course. Real slick. I'm now sure the beartooth 453's will be great. If I ever get them.

Tim,

Yes it takes some engineering. I'll get into all that when I get a better proceedure. For now it takes a mix of 45/70 and 454 dies. I'm looking thru my supply for other options. The Lee FCD is not working real well with the longer lead bullets. I'll figure out why. Could just be my adjusting.

Jerry

Don't think I'll hit the ballistics I hoped for. Not getting a complete burn of powder with starting 444 loads of H4198 w/very firm crimps and 250 gr xtp's. Primers still have lots of roundness to them.

JerryKo · « **Reply #28 on:** March 08, 2008, 09:38:34 AM »

Can the headstamp be removed without causing primer ploblems? Just popped outof my head.

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2008, 11:05:48 AM »

I use a piece of electrical conduit for a shim to crimp 45-120 cases in the 45-70 FCD, same for a washer to crimp 405Win cases in a 416 Rem Mag FCD.

Tim