Author Topic: Your thoughts 358/356 Marlin 336 conversions (Read 3100 times)

R.W.Dale · « **on:** March 10, 2008, 04:03:04 PM »

I'm intrigued by some of the conversions I've read about where Marlin 336'es are being rechambered from 35 Remington to a version of 356 WIN that uses 358 dies and brass. Essentially 358 slightly down loaded with FP bullets.

This seems like a neat Idea that gives you two pluses. First is you get to use much more common brass, 35rem is getting more and more scarce, and secondly you gain a good 250 FPS with all bullet weights.

What are your thoughts on this conversion? Does anyone here have firsthand experience with them?

wsjones · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2008, 02:54:19 AM »

I've thought about the same thing and last spring went down the road to the extent of getting prices from a fellow in Missouri (can't recall name) and SSK Industries for the conversion of my 35 Rem 336 to 356 Win.

Do a search on the subject and you'll probably get some interesting info from that thread and others. Long and short is that it's do-able and not that much $$. I didn't ever pursue it beyond that and then got off on other tracks but it's still interesting. Let us know what you find out. -WSJones

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2008, 01:26:31 PM »

Ive got a big bore .356 and use .358 dies to reaload it.

Swampman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2008, 02:45:09 PM »

"35rem is getting more and more scarce"

They still make it.

It's one awesome cartridge. 250fps increase won't make it kill anything it won't already kill.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2008, 04:07:52 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on March 11, 2008, 02:45:09 PM

"35rem is getting more and more scarce"

I take it you haven't tried to buy new 35 rem brass lately? When found (getting very unlikely) it's quite expensive

Quote

It's one awesome cartridge. 250fps increase won't make it kill anything it won't already kill.

My wanting one is reason enough, besides if that were the case we should all be shooting 30-30's

Swampman · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2008, 11:53:12 PM »

I see tons of .35 brass on the auction sites and Wlamart & BassPro have the loaded ammo. I agree that the .30-30 will do everything the .356 or .35 Remington will.

IMO the conversion is dangerous.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2008, 12:16:38 AM »

ill argue this a little. Ive killed lots of animals with 3030 .35s and the .356. the 3030 is no slouch but the .35 hits animals harder and neither compare to the .356, it just seems to hammer an animal. that extra 300 fps also makes them a viable 200-250 yard gun.

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2008, 12:39:33 AM »

SSK Industries has done several for GBO Members. I've seen reports in the past from several who've had them done there. I have a Marlin I keep toying with the idea of sending them for the conversion.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2008, 04:05:07 AM »

I think youd like it bill. I feel my 356 is my best balanced lever action in the safe. Its hard hitting, recoil is fairly mild when comparing it to rounds like the 444 and 4570. Its flatter shooting then either of them. Its also a step up in powder from the 3030 and 35 rem making it a viable elk and moose round. Its as versatile as the .35 in that you can plink with cast pistol bullets and loads that make it feel like a 22. It also meets my own standard for a rifle that will take game efficiently with a cast bullet. I just had veral make me a 220 grain lfn for that purpose in it. I dont hunt with anything smaller then a 35 with cast for big game. .30s just dont seem to anchor animals for me. What id love to see is marlin come out with a guide gun in 356. Ive contenplated rechambering my .35 guide gun but there getting pretty tough to find and are starting to bring a premium. I know im about dreaming but if i ever lucked into another one cheaply id have to do it to one of them.

wsjones · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2008, 08:03:21 AM »

As Graybeard mentioned, SSK does the conversion and the price they gave me last year seemed reasonable (I don't want say what it was because it was a year ago and not necessarily today's).

The Missouri gunsmith who also quoted me a price is Reg Nonneman (leveractions@grantcity.net). What he told me is that it requires rechambering (naturally) and modification or replacement of the finger lever so that it'll feed.

Good luck. -WSJ

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** March 12, 2008, 01:56:55 PM »

What about converting it to a 307? Or is that a case of "just get the 308ME and be done?

handirandy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 14, 2008, 03:42:11 PM »

Before converting be sure and try lever-revolution ammo for the 35. It may change your mind about spending $$ when something a lot cheaper will do what you want.

Swampman · « **Reply #12 on:** March 14, 2008, 03:51:59 PM »

Quote from: handirifle on March 12, 2008, 01:56:55 PM

What about converting it to a 307? Or is that a case of "just get the 308ME and be done?

That would be cheaper, and a lot safer.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** March 15, 2008, 12:53:41 AM »

rechambering and opening up the bolt would not be near as expensive as rebarreling a gun in 307. I cant see why it would be safer as they both run at the same pressure level. Leverevelotion ammo isnt going to put the 35 in the same league as the .356. Where the .356 shines is with heavier bullets on big game. Not with fast light bullets.

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** March 15, 2008, 07:44:08 AM »

It would be safer because the 336 and the 308MX aren't the same gun. The 308MX is designed to handle the extra pressure. Marlin dropped the .307 because they felt it wasn't safe. I agree.

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** March 15, 2008, 11:22:58 AM »

Actually the reason they stopped is it wasn't selling. Soon enough they will be dropping the new .308 Marlin for the same reason. It's really a pretty small niche market they are shooting for with that round and I feel certain they will shortly realize it's just too small a niche to be profitable for them.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** March 15, 2008, 11:58:13 AM »

can you fill me in on this. I was under the understanding that it is nothing but a 336. they dont mention anything on there web sight about it. What parts are beefed up? I owned and shot enough marlins to know that anyone that says they wouldnt hold up to factory 307 pressures is blowing smoke! If anything the problem with marlins is some idiots think that any cartridge loaded by the factory can be souped up another 200 fps and in all reality the ammo manufactures are able to get ballistics that we only dream of using special powders that we have no access to. But im here to tell you youd never hurt a marliin with factory 307 ammo. What tends to hurt a lever is bolt thrust and if that bolt will hold up to some of the stout 4570 and 444 loads guys put through them a 307 is a puppy dog in comparison.

Quote from: Swampman on March 15, 2008, 07:44:08 AM

It would be safer because the 336 and the 308MX aren't the same gun. The 308MX is designed to handle the extra pressure. Marlin dropped the .307 because they felt it wasn't safe. I agree.

Swampman · « **Reply #17 on:** March 15, 2008, 03:56:53 PM »

The .307 has more bolt thrust than the .444 or the .45-70. The barrel threads on the 307 barrels are different.

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** March 15, 2008, 05:09:41 PM »

Swampman you've posted some STRANGE things over the years but I gotta admit that is about the strangest. Are you REAL SURE you know what bolt thrust is? If so why in the world would you even mention the barrel threads?

handirifle · « **Reply #19 on:** March 15, 2008, 07:59:06 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on March 15, 2008, 11:58:13 AM

can you fill me in on this. I was under the understanding that it is nothing but a 336. they dont mention anything on there web sight about it. What parts are beefed up? I owned and shot enough marlins to know that anyone that says they wouldnt hold up to factory 307 pressures is blowing smoke! If anything the problem with marlins is some idiots think that any cartridge loaded by the factory can be souped up another 200 fps and in all reality the ammo manufactures are able to get ballistics that we only dream of using special powders that we have no access to. But im here to tell you youd never hurt a marliin with factory 307 ammo. What tends to hurt a lever is bolt thrust and if that bolt will hold up to some of the stout 4570 and 444 loads guys put through them a 307 is a puppy dog in comparison.
Quote from: Swampman on March 15, 2008, 07:44:08 AM
It would be safer because the 336 and the 308MX aren't the same gun. The 308MX is designed to handle the extra pressure. Marlin dropped the .307 because they felt it wasn't safe. I agree.

Lloyd

Here's some info from Marlin.

The receiver isn't a 336 receiver, but it's based on the 1895 receiver which is stronger to start off.

First obstacle: The rifling is 1-12 for the 308, and 1-10 for the 30-30...The faster twist of the 30-30 will raise the operating pressure.

Second obstacle: The new thread design between the barrel and the receiver is such, that the receiver adds strength to the chamber area within the barrel. This is the same thread design used in the 450M.

Third obstacle: The locking characteristis of the 308 a bit different than those of the 30-30

Fourth obstacle: the carrier would need to be modified or changed, to work with the 308MX case design.

GB I think I might have to disagree with you on this one, based on the reading over at Marlin Owners, I think the 308ME is here to stay. The for sure lock will be when other ammo makes offer other loadings. But No one has been disappointed in the performance of the factory loading.

I just wish they made the ammo with a Barnes TSX bullet as the base for here in CA.

Swampman · « **Reply #20 on:** March 15, 2008, 11:18:50 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on March 15, 2008, 05:09:41 PM

Swampman you've posted some STRANGE things over the years but I gotta admit that is about the strangest. Are you REAL SURE you know what bolt thrust is? If so why in the world would you even mention the barrel threads?

I knew what bolt thrust was in 1976 because that's when I started fooling around with wildcat cartridges and ruined T/C Contender frames. I mentioned it because Lloyd mentioned it. I mentioned the barrel threads because Lloyd ask what the difference was. Nothing I post is STRANGE to me, because I've seen it happen. I don't just post stuff I've read about.

"I think the 308ME is here to stay."

Me too! The Marlin 308MX is as accurate and hard hitting as a .308 Winchester bolt action rifle. It's one of the very very few good/useful cartridges to be released in the last 30 years. I almost never sing the praises of a new cartridge. Most of the good ones are 100+ years old.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #21 on:** March 16, 2008, 02:19:13 AM »

first there is no differnce in a 95 action and a 336. there the same thing. Second is that if you experienced bolt thurst problems in a tc that casued frame stretching and investigated it at all you would have found that the biggest offender in tcs was the 4570 and it was the reason tc didnt chamber the 444. The tc does chamber rounds that have just as much if not more chamber pressure then the 444 but the large case and case head caused much more bolt thrust and the same happens it a marlin. Rob Applegate once sent me a long email on the subject. If you dont know who he is hes one of the most knowlegable gun builders in the country and has has had guns excepted into the gunmakers guild. the subject came up with my 475 marlin 94 he built. He was addressing the weakness marlins do have in the barrel threads and i asked him if that was going to be the limiting factor in loads for this gun. He told me that he would address the barrel thread problem but it actually had little to do with the load limits It would be bolt thurst that would limit this gun. He said before you ever got to loads that would blow this gun up you would have i rattled loose from bolt thrust. He said the bigger the case head the more the problem i compounded. He brought up the example of ruger making the first 44 mags on 357 framed guns. The 44 mag runs no more pressure then the 357 but the larger case head pounded the frame so much that they broke in half. Pressure wasnt the problem as the cylinders held up fine. Its the frames that let loose. Same goes for a marlin. Whens the last time you saw one blow up? When you overload them two things happen. First the extrator isnt as stout as bolt and you dont have near the leverage so extraction becomes impossible. Second is your nice tight marlin turns into a rattle trap. Its tough to prove it but id be will to bet that if guy took a 336 in 307 and loaded it to 50000 psi and took another one in 4570 and loaded it to 40000 psi and started shooting that the 4570 would give up the ghost way before the 307 would. Id also bet my entire gun collection that neigther would blow up or shear a locking lug.

Swampman · « **Reply #22 on:** March 16, 2008, 02:25:39 AM »

Blown up Marlin

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=27612&highlight=

Bolt thrust is a lot more complicated than what your friend suggested. The 7mmTCU ruined more frames than any other caliber. Case wall surface are is a huge problem.

The .307 isn't safe in a regular 336, that's why Marlin dropped it.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #23 on:** March 16, 2008, 06:23:30 AM »

that blow up was the result of loading aa7 in place of re7. I dont know a bolt gun that would hold up to that. When a barrel burst your talking loads that are in a different league then loads putting out 50000 in a marlin. I know theres a pile of levergun guys in this country that know a hell of a lot more then i do including paco kelly that will tell you its doable. I would guess that marlin was worried about handloaders trying to improve things and im sure it weighted in there that the round had a winchester headstamp on it. If it didnt they wouldnt have fooled around and wasted so much money reinventing the round as the 308 instead of just using what allready worked. When a rifle maker makes a gun its proffed at 200 percent of its max pressue. So jumping up from 40000 to 50000 in a 336 is far from unsafe. The only problem a guy is going to run into is poor brass life and thats the case in about any levergun anyway. I guess too i have to ask why marlin said they wouldnt chamber the 307 because of pressure but then did chamber the .356. theres more to there decision then you and i have seen in print and im sure about 99 pecent of it is just rivalry between win and marlin. Just as you will never see winchester chambering a 94 big bore in 308 marlin. Ive got to agree with the other poster that said its just another flash in the pan round that will eventuallly fade and die. Its pretty hard to keep a round afloat chambering it only one gun. Same goes for the 308 tc. Not that there not good usualble rounds its just that they fill to small of a niche. I dearly love the 356 and think its hands down better then any of the .30s and it died too. Ive got about 500 rounds of brass so it will stay alive in my loading room till i die and id heartly suggest anyone that really loves the 308 marlin to do the same.

Swampman · « **Reply #24 on:** March 16, 2008, 10:48:44 AM »

Marlin thought the .356 was safe. That's why they produced it. The 308MX Marlin is very safe, and strong. I hope to get one soon.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** March 16, 2008, 12:36:34 PM »

then tell me why the .356 is safe and the .307 isnt. same case same pressure bigger bullet and less metal in the barrel thread area. You think maybe marlin was blowing smoke up your but when they said it was unsafe!!!!

Swampman · « **Reply #26 on:** March 16, 2008, 01:29:49 PM »

"then tell me why the .356 is safe and the .307 isnt."

Less bolt thrust. Bigger bore allows lower pressures that bleeds off faster.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #27 on:** March 16, 2008, 01:43:56 PM »

the laws of physics will argue your bolt thrust therory. Id have to say that two cartridges that have the same peak pressure and with one firing a 50 grain heavier bullet that the bolt thrust has to be greater and ill even say its sure not enough either way to make one dangerous to pull the trigger on and one safe. I said enough on this and dont want to get into a pissing match so im out of here.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2008, 06:56:22 AM »

Bolt thrust formula:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.
CPSI=cartridge pressure in pounds per square inch.

30-30 WCF HS=.375" CPSI=42,000 Thrust=4639psi
307 Winchester HS=.385" CPSI=60,900 Thrust=7090psi
444 Marlin HS=.395" CPSI=42,000 Thrust=5147psi
45-70 Gov't HS=.460" CPSI=38,000 Thrust=6315psi
450 Marlin HS=.420" CPSI=43,500 Thrust=6027psi

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #29 on:** March 17, 2008, 07:31:09 AM »

now use that formula and figure both the 307 and the .356 at a realistic 50000 psi and it looks like its a wash. I dont know where the 60,900 came from for the .307 but i dont think anyone is loading any lever gun to those pressures.