Author Topic: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN (Read 10164 times)

seacoastartillery · « **on:** July 23, 2008, 10:09:32 AM »

Like the man said, the correct color is BLACK. M&T

Double D · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2008, 09:43:09 AM »

M&T,

I split this out so we could talk a bit about it, as I see a contradiction to what information I have. The elveator is missing and wedges are use instead.

My gun is made from drawings sold years ago a by William F. Green. Green visited the guns he drew and took pictures as well as made drawings.

Here is a sheet of pictures from the Cairo wreck included in his drawing package.

Very clearly the carriage in the picture has a screw elevator.

Is the gundeck in your picture a replication of the Cairo gundeck?

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** July 24, 2008, 10:40:34 AM »

Quote

wedges

quion

Cannoneer · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2008, 10:58:34 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on July 24, 2008, 10:40:34 AM

Quote
wedges

quion

Or, coign.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2008, 11:21:22 AM »

DD, I went to post a reply to M&T's post on the original thread and to my utter amazement and complete consternation it had vanished. As I slowly began to regain my composure I found this reposting now under a new title "Monitor gundeck" and I was instantly flummoxed again.
Wasn't the Monitor the first Federal ironclad and didn't it have a revolving turret that housed the ships entire battery of two 11 inch Dahlgren guns?

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2008, 11:45:56 AM »

Boom J you are correct; it's a City Class Casemated Gunboat. The Monitor was the "Cheeze Box on a Raft" first made in Greenpoint, Long Island, NY with the two 11 Inch Dahlgren Shell Guns. Double D, all the research I did on this topic is condensed pretty much into a couple paragraphs from that previous post and is now copied to this post and here it is:

Re: M-1841 42-Pounder Army Rifle
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 06:45:39 PM »

DD,

" We have admired your rendition of the Army version of the 42 pounder during the discussion on recoil reducing and maneuvering gear. Referred to as Seacoast Guns, Patterns 1840 and 1845, they were not designed with rifling in mind. George is correct; this came later with experiments in 1856 to around 1859 and semi-production after that point. True production of the "James System" rifling started in 1861 for obvious reasons. The 32 pounder and 42 pounder guns were favored for conversion by the north and the south because they were so numerous and after conversion were called 64 pounders and 84 pounders because of the new rifled bolt weight. Most were not banded, but this was risky, of course, as accidents would prove. These guns were supplied to a variety of commanders in completely different situations. Some went west to arm the City Class gunboats like the Cairo and some went south to provide breeching batteries for the Federal investment of southern-held forts like Fort Pulaski near Savannah, Georgia. There are 4 rifled, unbanded 32 Pounders at Fort Gaines, AL today and they were fairly common in Confederate wartime installations and on naval vessels.

The Cairo guns recovered in the 1960s included at least three rifled 42 pounders, a pattern 1831 with no muzzle ring and a breeching ring above the cascable, 9 lands/grooves, (RH) and two rifled pattern 1845 which look exactly like yours. They also had 9 lands/grooves, (RH) and all three were unbanded. We have never run into a pattern 1841, nor have we been able to find that designation in "The Big Guns" by Olmstead, Stark and Tucker. The pattern 1840 is almost identical to the 1845, with the exception that it was unturned whereas the pattern 1845 was completely lathe turned. We agree with George, your best bet for a photo would lie with the Nat. Military Park people in Vicksburg, MS. who maintain and interpret the Cairo site."

Hope this helps,

Tracy and Mike

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2008, 01:26:35 PM »

Wedges? Where the heck did that come from? Monitor-Merrimac-Iron clad? We are among friends here aren't we? I have excuses, I make none. I ask for mercy.

Greene's photo's were supposed to have been made in the NPS storage yard after the boat was recovered and before it was "restored" for display.

Where is this static display of an City class iron clad gun deck--Memphis?

The wife and I have been invited by our son to come visit our grandkids next spring. Interesting form of inviation as he only has one child...an attachment to the email invite was a sonogram showing head and shoulders.

On the return trip we will have to make a swing down to Vicksburg. Perhaps we can then resolve this contradiction of quin versus screw elevator.

The trip home will take us through Missouri and that will be my 50th state i have been in and the Wife's 49th...She hasn't been to Alaska.

To revisit the 42 Pounder barrel. There is one of of these barrels at the Fort St. Augustine and it was not rifled. I remember well from my visit to see the gun in 1989. I am 60 years old and have a mind as sharp as, as, as...and know wedges are a means of cooking potato's to go with broasted chicken...any one wanna pick on me, go ahead. Be fore warned I have the toll free number to the senior citizen abuse 24/7 hot line set on speed dial!

MikeR C · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2008, 01:35:18 PM »

DD,
A while back I stated that "no one would dare make fun of you", I take it back, I feel like I can post anything now...

MikeR C

Frank46 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2008, 05:39:12 PM »

Ah, potato wedges one of my favorite food groups. Sorry couldn't resist. Frank

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2008, 06:38:41 PM »

Quote from: Double D on July 24, 2008, 01:26:35 PM

Greene's photo's were supposed to have been made in the NPS storage yard after the boat was recovered and before it was "restored" for display.

Where is this static display of an City class iron clad gun deck--Memphis?

The armed and armored casemate display represents all such ironclad City class gunboats, including the Cairo. It is located at the Mississippi River Museum on Mud Island connected to the downtown Memphis river-front park by a monorail. The museum is very unique and interesting.

Although I still can't find any reference to an 1841 army 42 pdr., only an 1840 and an 1845 model, the good news is that I finally found a picture taken recently by a gentleman in 2006 at the Cairo Gunboat reconstruction in Vicksburg that is the only view that shows no quoins in use one either of the 42 pdr. James conversion rifles in the bow of that ship on port and starboard sides, only on the 8" Navy Shell Gun in the center position. So, I believe these guns and maybe the one in the stern, the other being supplanted by a 30 pdr. Parrott rifle, were probably the ones studied by Mr. Green and that probably all of them, at least the two in the bow, used the elevation screw adjustment for elevation and depression.

When you visit Vicksburg on your upcoming trip you can report the final "word" on this subject back to us and then we will really know. Congratulations! That visit to your son's family should be extra special.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

At a larger photo size you can see that only the center gun has a quoin under the breech. Photo by John C. Sanders, Oct. 11, 2006.

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2009, 02:44:15 PM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on July 23, 2008, 10:09:32 AM

See the fitting on the side of the check holding the heavy line. I need something like that for a small gun carriage for 1/2 diameter rope.

If I can't find ready made, I suppose could make one from a chain shackle by welding a threaded shaft on the arc side.

http://www.e-rigging.com/product_images/new_spa.jpg

Anybody know where I might find ready made?

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2009, 02:53:59 PM »

They kind of look like oarloack, but I can't find any that small.

carronader · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2009, 04:35:20 AM »

exhaust clamp ,arc side usually has a hole drilled,some small engined French and Italian cars have small diameter pipes.

Double D · « **Reply #13 on:** April 21, 2009, 05:22:47 AM »

Thanks, for the idea carronader, I looked at those, but passed. The have two bolt that hold the clamp. I was looking for a pinned type. I have decide to stick with what I have and do my rigging a bit different.

I'll be opening a new post soon on the refurbishment and rigging of my gun.

lendi · « **Reply #14 on:** April 21, 2009, 02:21:54 PM »

Double D,
We should have some of the fittings that you are looking for. They are in bronze. I will check this week. contact me at len@dicannonworks.com.
len

carronader · « **Reply #15 on:** April 21, 2009, 11:03:11 PM »

this pic is of the 'Victory' Pic is a little unclear but it shows a ring I think,could save you a headache.
Drawings are of Nelson Era carriages,and of course I couldn't omit the 'Voice of Doom' the beautiful Carronade.Don't know if you want to rig it this way but is an alternative.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2009, 03:20:05 AM »

I have the Victory Detail.

On The Victory the breech rope is attached to the bulkhead by whipped eyes. The breech rope passes through solid rings on the cheeks, and cascabel. The tackle is removeable.

For my set up, I need to be able to remove the breech rope and tackle from the gun.

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2009, 05:26:44 AM »

Carronader,

Will you share the source of your two drawings?

Cannoneer · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2009, 10:53:49 AM »

Quote

wedges

Quote

quion

Quote from: Double D on July 24, 2008, 01:26:35 PM

Wedges? Where the heck did that come from? Monitor-Merrimac-Iron clad? We are among friends here aren't we? I have excuses, I make none. I ask for mercy.

In all fairness, many authors writing about naval ordnance in the age of sail use the term(s) wedge, wooden wedge, and levelling wedge instead of, or descriptive of, the word quoin (coigne, coign).

This drawing of a naval carriage for a Parrott rifle may show a clearer image of the carriage hardware you're looking for.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2009, 11:07:59 AM »

Fellas I know nothing of the material but I love the discussion, Thanks for the posts!

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2009, 11:53:52 AM »

Thanks BoomJ.

This the part I am looking for.

carronader · « **Reply #21 on:** April 23, 2009, 01:12:09 AM »

DD,
The drawings are from...' The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships ' by C Nepean Longridge. Publisher...Special Interest Model Books....ISBN 1-85486-122-0. This book is more a ' how to build the Victory ' from scratch than anything else.From around 270 pages, 9 are specific to Guns and Gun deck.If you are thinking of building an English Ship of the line from this period,in my humble opinion this is all you need.Very detailed,with plans and lots of 'how to' if you know what I mean.To give an idea I have put just one of the mast detail drawings,illustrator is G.F. Campbell.Maybe Seacoast stocks or could get this book if anyone is interested.
could also give a good idea of what you are getting into before taking something like this on from scratch,and be a great help when building from a kit.

Max Caliber · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2009, 01:54:20 AM »

Here is a nicely rigged cannon, located at the Washington Navy Yard.

Double D · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2009, 03:02:39 AM »

Thanks Max,

Another configuration. I think i will stay with what I have.

carronader · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2009, 03:32:26 AM »

Pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only in America

dynomike · « **Reply #25 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:16:15 AM »

DD Did you say you were going to Memphis? I live about 30 miles north of there. Do you know about Ft Pillow they have several civil war cannons it would be about 50 miles from Memphis. If you need any help let me know.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #26 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:19:57 AM »

Quote from: carronader on April 23, 2009, 03:32:26 AM

Pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only in America

Nice of you to notice, Carronader. THAT COLOR, Off-Red, Or PINK, if you prefer, is a proud Fighting Color used by our courageous naval forces in past battles. While not trying to high-jack this thread, we believe a little enlightenment is in order here. Despite what you hear these days from mamby-pamby psychologists about the calming effect of that color, Mike and I are firmly convinced that the purpose of naval leaders, in ordering that color to be used on gun carriages, WAS NOT to hide spilled blood, but rather, to keep the sailors slightly agitated All the Time, and therefore Ready for a Fight All the Time! To prove our hypothesis, we present a series of photos below:

A freshly painted carriage, drying in the sun at the U.S. Brig Niagara's repair yard at the Erie Maritime Museum in Erie, Pennsylvania, U.S.A.

This photo of one of the Niagara's 18 carronades shows also a section of the ship during the Battle of Lake Erie in 1813.

The Myth Busters know nothing about splinters. THESE are the deadly SPLINTERS often referred to. Damage to "PINK" carriage evident.

What happens when you confront sailors who fight with naval guns on PINK platforms and who are also agitated, determined, courageous and well led.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:57:41 AM »

That's a nice pic, Max.

Quote from: carronader on April 23, 2009, 03:32:26 AM

Pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only in America

Now wait just a cotton pickin' minute here, Carronader; do you really think that some shiny brass buttoned, high-muck-a-muck over at the U.S. Naval Historical Center, actually hired an interior decorator to plan the color scheme of this exhibit?

This excerpt is taken from a scale modelling article about the correct paint scheme of the Constitution, (don't laugh, these ship modellers are fanatical in their dogged research into finding the proper colors of every item, and matching these colors to their correct historical period) by Ray Morton: "Gun carriages were terra cotta (the brownish boxcar red) except for 1804-1809 when the carriages were "yellow the color of butter" with lampblack gun tubes, iron fittings, and trucks. After 1845, or so, many of the gun carriages were lampblack and all were most likely lampblack upon entering the American Civil War era and afterwards."

Now, in this case, maybe the painters made a slight mistake in mixing the color, but I think it's probable that they were attempting to reach the correct hue of the historically accurate choice of terra cotta.

Double D · « **Reply #28 on:** April 23, 2009, 08:16:56 AM »

Quote from: dynomike on April 23, 2009, 07:16:15 AM

DD Did you say you were going to Memphis? I live about 30 miles north of there. Do you know about Ft Pillow they have several civil war cannons it would be about 50 miles from Memphis. If you need any help let me know.

In the future, I would like to go there on my way back to Montana after visiting Vicksburg. My one and only visit to Memphis had me out voted three females to one male for Graceland, I conceded defeat, so a return visit should get Cannons.

Maybe next year. My 201K (use to be a 401K) statement had + figures in it this month... + 0.08 increase is only just better than a poke in he eye with a sharp stick.

brokenpole · « **Reply #29 on:** April 23, 2009, 09:36:21 AM »

Okay...I will probably end up at the Cairo exhibit some time this weekend. Since I live in Vicksburg that ain't no big drive

I know there are guns aboard the exhibit but I don't think any of them are originals but I can certainly ask. They did have a book on the USS Cairo in the museum gift shop I might be able to get some idea from.

Just let me know the specifics of what pics ya'll need.

If I can be of help I will be glad to.