Author Topic: 45-120 Chrono Results  (Read 1971 times)

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Offline tykempster

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45-120 Chrono Results
« on: August 02, 2008, 12:18:07 PM »
Tempature was 80 degrees.  Chrono was about 10 yards in front of the muzzle.  All results in FPS, with a 405 grain Remington bullet.  DON'T DO THIS IN A SHARPS RIFLE.

XX grains IMR 4320- 2276, 2314, 2297

XY grains IMR 4320- 2408, 2416, 2412

XZ grains IMR 4320- 2501, 2476, 2519

Recoil is stout, especially with the hottest loads.  Add about 50 fps on for the gun being 10 yards from the chrono.  2550 fps has 5884.6 ft-lbs of energy.  Bad thing is the sights will not come close to sighting in anywhere closer than 300 yards.  The max loads knocked the sights out of the dovetail, and I guess bent something, because the gun shoots almost a foot high at 50 yards, which according to my calculations makes it dead on at just under 500 yards.

Graybeard NOTE: I've removed the data for amount of powder used. I've not checked a book but the amounts listed and the performance stated are highly unlikely to be safe in any gun made today. If you wish to be STUPID at least don't post the data here telling us about it.

Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 12:22:26 PM »
45-70 also shot at 2300 fps with a 300 grain Remington JHP the chrono the same distance away, with 5 grains under max lever gun loads. Figure 2350 coming out of the muzzle, you could possibly get 2500 fps with safe lever gun pressures from a 22" or 24" barrel. Tack on a hundred fps for top Ruger loads if you have a strong action, and you're in some serious power from that old cartridge.


Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 02:42:43 PM »
Tyler, maybe it's the shooter that's bent from all that recoil!! :o ;D

Typically chronos are set 10-15 feet from the muzzle, not yards.  ;)

Thanks for the update,

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 03:06:16 PM »
I thought the cotton filler might screw up results, it comes out as a massive cloud for probably 10 feet in front of the barrel.  Almost as cool as black powder. :D

Recoil on light loads=61.7 ft lbs
Recoil on medium loads=67.9 ft lbs
Recoil on max loads=74.4 ft lbs

Almost crossed the three-quarter century threshold!

Lets see what 500 grains at 2200 fps looks like...
87.6 ft-lbs.  Wheee, can't wait till the 720 grainers get here!

@ 1850 fps, 108 ft lbs of recoil= :o

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 02:12:13 PM »
Tyler, check the stock bolt, if it loosened up from the recoil, it could change POI.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 02:30:42 PM »
I have that dang recoil reducer in there.  How to get it out...

Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 02:39:17 PM »
Anywhere the H&R receiver sight with target knobs is available?  Not in stock anywhere I see.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 02:48:45 PM »
The C&R MRR is threaded for a ¼"-28 bolt, just screw the bolt in and pull the thing outa there. The Williams FP-TK with target knobs was $60 the last time I looked at the H&R store which is down now, but it should still be available.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Lucky Joe

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 03:56:05 PM »
I thought the cotton filler might screw up results, it comes out as a massive cloud for probably 10 feet in front of the barrel.  Almost as cool as black powder. :D

Recoil on light loads=61.7 ft lbs
Recoil on medium loads=67.9 ft lbs
Recoil on max loads=74.4 ft lbs

Almost crossed the three-quarter century threshold!

Lets see what 500 grains at 2200 fps looks like...
87.6 ft-lbs.  Wheee, can't wait till the 720 grainers get here!


@ 1850 fps, 108 ft lbs of recoil= :o

Tykempster,

I don't know where you live but I think I'm already standing too close to you.
Lucky Joe

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Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2008, 07:51:23 PM »
Crazy fact-720 grainers at 1850 fps have 1000 ft lbs past 2000 yards, but aren't supersonic to 1000!

 :D  Even though my sights were way off, I walloped a silhouette chicken swinger at 200 yards offhand, that sucker almost made it do a full spin!  A 30-378 Wby just made it a swing a bit, a 338 Lapua made it jump, but 45-120 reigned supreme in "whackage".  Of course, that isn't a high percentage shot for me with that gun!

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 07:06:04 AM »
If you keep that up you will be seeing a eye doctor for retinal detachment.....

Offline cobraa

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 03:28:30 PM »
Tykempster  you need to stop and i dont know why no one hasn't said this before now, ya talking about shooting some seriously Dangerous loads and ya going to end up stuffing ya rifle or getting hurt or worse.. or both.....  yes its fun working out loads for ya rifles etc but safe loads not the loads ya talking about.

Offline NFG

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 05:35:02 PM »
Ty;  FWIW

I ran your numbers through my Load Disk using a Beartooth 405 gr bullet, length of 1.030", seated to 4.10" COAL and came up with the same velocities...plus or minus a bit...the XX gr 4320 load indicated 2242fs/36883 CUP and the XZ gr 4320 indicated 2541fs/47361 CUP...BUT... at a seated COAL  of 4.1", basically about 0.180" deep, roughly the first grease groove at the bottom of the bullet.  That gave 105 gr H2O case capacity...Empty CC was 113 gr H20.

Seated to 3.7" in the normal crimping groove reduced the CC to 89 gr and increased the pressure beyond 50KCUP...basically depending on the COAL you loaded to, you could be pushing your luck.

I also ran this load through my Winload program...405gr bullet, 3.70" COAL and 89 gr H20, and the program indicated a start load of 77 gr H4895, 45KCUP, 2358 fs so both programs agree fairly closely...H4895 being a bit faster than 4320 and considering these programs use similar methods to calculate pressure and velocity.

The 458 Lott has a CC of 106 gr, 93% of the 3.25", so you have a bit of cushion if you used Lott loads and started at the bottom.  You will still get the higher velocities but at a safer pressure level. The 458 WM has 96 gr H2O or 85% of the 3.25".

Most of that extra velocity is coming from the 32" barrel length and you can get away with some pretty fancy speeds with the 300 gr bullets, but when you start getting into the heavies, inertia and bullet friction starts playing a greater roll and peak pressures start rising sharper, begin sooner and last longer even tho' were talking milliseconds.

AA2520 and AA2700 had higher velocities at similar or lower pressure than 4320.

I don't have to remind you about safety and you need to load to the capacity of the RECEIVER...NOT the case.  NEF's are stout...I ran the chamber numbers through my pressure program and you seem to be well within the safety range...but I wouldn't press the issue...REMEMBER...the chamber may be strong enough to handle the pressure, but the weld on the lug or the 3/8" hinge pin are the limiting factors on the NEF.  Take a good look at the lug and the hinge pin and you will see what I mean.  The cross sectional area of the pin is .4418 sq in and the two itty-bitty hunks of underlug that hold on that pin should give you a wake up call.  I wouldn't have any problem with loading up a stiff one on the 3.25" case in a bolt gun, but I limit my 45-70 loads to 45KPSI in my BC.

Besides..as you mentioned...recoil can cause a real ruckus and take the pleasure out of a days shooting.  Playing with the numbers always gives me big eyes and makes me squirm in the chair...that is until I touch one off and get a dose of reality.  Some of my 12 GAFH 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 oz slug loads are churning up velocities in the 2000-2200 fs range and the recoil in the Rem 870 is just plain brutal...sorta like a Green Bay Packer middle linebacker putting you out of the play...for the rest of the week.

Have fun...but be careful.

'Njoy

Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2008, 03:03:55 AM »
NFG, I have had someone run all my loads through quickload.  I only shot 75 grain loads in new brass.  My fired brass holds 125 grains H20, and loads should be under 40k pressures, I don't want to go above that.

If you run the loads again through quickload with the 125 grain case capacity, I think you will see pressures are going to be much lower.

I am seating to the second crimping groove, however I may try the first one, too bad I won't be able to find anything that my shells will fit in then! :o

If you don't mind, you could send me some quickload data for the 300, 405, and 500 grain bullets at the new capacity, been wanting to try the Hornady 500 grain softs.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2008, 08:02:09 AM »
tykempster, you DO realize that you're approaching almost 9000 lbs of breech thrust, don't you?

And that's not considering the area under the pressure curve.
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Offline NFG

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 10:22:13 AM »
SmokingJoe...I would be interested in how you calculated the breech thrust, what you mean by "breech thrust"  and are you talking about PSI or what?  9000 PSI isn't all that much if you consider the total area of the receiver face and the nominal strength in PSI of the steel, if that is what you are refering to.

Ty...I have "Load from a Disk" and several old Powley programs including WinLoad, some which you can download from Steves Pages.  Now comes the weasel words...I don't give out load information other than that which is in load manuals or calculate from presented data, as I did with your information, anymore on the internet...I don't have any control over the actions of anyone using that data...I don't know your level of expertise, and so on.   Even if I knew you personally, I probably wouldn't do the calculations, rather show you how and let you do the work.  That limits my liability and also gives me the option to say "No" if I don't think you're up the the task...Sorry....The data I used as far as the CC is concerned came from the LD software and I don't have any 3.25" cases to measure so...if indeed...125 gr CC is correct for your cases you have plenty of built in safety as compared to a 458 Lott as the 3.25" case is about 1.18% larger.  I could run some ratio calculations but...again...you can too.

Start LOW and work up SLOW are my guiding words and I've been doing this wildcat stuff for a very long time and I know from personal experience what can happen if you get break out in azzh***s, get stupid and s*** all over yourself.

I started to do a 45-120 but after all the cogitating, surfing the net and working on the numbers I decided to stop at 45-90 but didn't pursue the actual rechambering as I worked up loads for the 45-70.  The 45-90 would equal the 458 Lott easy enough, the 525 gr bullets gave me all the energy and recoil I wanted at fairly low velocities 1500-1800 fs, besides I have several other large caliber rifles that produce all those high energy numbers and recoil levels and having another one seemed redundent not discounting the fact the bolt guns all have mag capacities well above single shot.

I will say this...I ran the numbers for a cartridge called the 458 3.25" 500 with a empty CC of 125, 3.7" COAL, 405 gr bullet/1.030" long, loaded CC of 102 gr through Winload and LD and they both agreed closely...pressure at 45KCUP/2472 FS using 4064 which is close to 4320 in burn rate.  These programs calculate a 86% begining load ratio.  You should be able to infer all the information you need from this information.  Download Winload from Steves pages or search the net...it is/was freeware so you can do the cogitating yourself.   The recoil from this load would be in the 65 flb/21 fs range in a 9 lb rifle, muzzle energy 5600 plus and 4200 plus at 100 yds.  This is well above what is needed in the USA and even farther above what 95% of the hunting population could stand. 

Crunching numbers is neat, but they can get you in deep doodoo at both ends of the stick if you let them.

Be careful...this is just a sport, something to play with, but not to die for.

'Njoy

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 02:11:58 PM »
NFG, the breech or bolt thrust is the total amount of rearward force, in pounds, applied to the breech or bolt of a firearm when it is fired. It is the force that attempts to "unlock" or open the Handi when the trigger is pulled; it, in effect shoves between the breech and the hinge pin.
 The breech thrust is found by multiplying the cartridge interior base area in square inches by the operating pressure in PSI.
 The loads discussed here are not safe. QuickLoad and WinLoad will not give accurate forcasts for straight-sided cases.

Quote
I started to do a 45-120 but after all the cogitating, surfing the net and working on the numbers I decided to stop at 45-90 but didn't pursue the actual rechambering as I worked up loads for the 45-70.  The 45-90 would equal the 458 Lott easy enough

 This just ain't gonna happen at safe operating pressures. What you're talking about is running a handi-rifle to 53,000 CUP with a base diameter of around .504

This will end my participation in this thread.
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 03:32:58 PM »
I did a little calculatin myself using an online calculator, hope it's what I want.  ::) The 500S&W has an operating pressure of over 50kpsi and an inside case head diameter of .501", that calculates to over 9800lbs of breech thrust, and the 500S&W has roughly half the case wall contact of the 45-120. Bell 45 Basic brass has an inside case head diameter of ~.420" as near as I can measure it, that calculates to 6900lbs of breech thrust at 50kpsi. I don't know how thick Norma brass is, but the Bell is considerably thicker than the 500S&W brass at the case head.  ;) Considering the generally accepted premise that straight walled cases have just as much pressure exerted on the case walls as the case head, I don't think Tyler's loads are any more dangerous than 500S&W loads in any other respect than the tremendous recoil affects which should be considered as STUMPJMPR pointed out. 

Tim

Calculating bolt(breech) thrust
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline NFG

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 05:33:30 PM »
Sorry you're leaving Smoking Joe I was hoping to pick your brain a little more.  Your description is the same as mine but clarification is always better...there is just way too much wrong information, mis-information and just plain dis- information floating around the mall not to insist on somekind of clarification.  Besides I'm way past the "No...because I said so" thing...I need the reasons why and some hard numbers to go along with it.  And I wasn't advocating using any kind of loads beyond the capacity of the NEF RECEIVER....not sure where you got that from.  The information I posted was from two software programs that agreed closely, plus checking through several of my loading manuals to see if the information was valid and was for informational purposes to indicate to Ty where he was headed.  I'm the first to say stay within SAMMI pressure limits or if SAMMI isn't around use good reloading scense and follow what the manuals safety information states.

I was in the midst of mentioning the 500 S&W when Quick jumped on my horse, so I will let him run with it, other than to say 4140 steel which is used in the barrel and frame of the NEF CF's has a minimum strength in the 150 to 200 KPSI range depending on the hardening process.  His calculations are the same as I came up with and physics teach pressure is equal on all surfaces in a volume.   A cartridge case isn't a pressure vessel as it has one end open and the pressure is constantly reduced as the bullet moves down the bore.  As I said before, my only concern is the underlug weldments and the hinge pin. 

I did mess up about the 45-90 equaling the 458 Lott....I meant the 45-90 equals the 458 WM in CC, missed that when I was proof reading...hummmmmmm

All the interior ballistics programs I use calculate an 86% load for the CC of the case with a seated bullet and pressures around 45KCUP which is well below any problem areas for the most part...but there are always exceptions.  I've been using these programs since the '60 and never had any problems with straight walled or bottlenecked cartridges, wildcat or standard, and my admonition to Start LOW and work up SLOW AND load to the capacity and parameters of the RECEIVER not the cartridge case still is valid and if you don't understand these words you shouldn't be messing around any kind of a reloading operation.  All the software internal ballistics programs calculate on CASE VOLUME, bullet weight, bullet diameter and length and return results with a powder having burning rates to give that pressure...it doesn't matter what the case is per se.  Besides straight walled cases actually grip the chamber walls better, but because most straight walled cases are lower pressure pistol or used in older rifles they only grip tighter if they are used in higher pressure modern weapons.  You have to understand how to use internal ballistics programs the same as understanding how to use reloading manuals otherwise ugly will rear its head.

Losing Ty's load information is a good thing, I don't think personal load information should be posted unless it is also available in reloading manuals and I wouldn't feel any problem with GrayBeard losing any information I posted if he though it was dangerous or misplaced.  I included the pressure information specifically as a warning but didn't come out and say it as such, I think I have posted my thoughts on safety in the other posts in this thread.

You can never know how questions or information is taken on these forums.  Sometimes the most innocent meaning words or thoughts will stir up a hornets nest.

I load my BC to 48-50KPSI which is well within the receivers safety and SAMMI limits, and I can get all the velocity and recoil I need to satisfy my S&M needs with 525 gr slugs out of the 45-70 cartridge without needing to rechamber to a larger case,  ;D  and I get velocities I won't post just to keep those without full understanding from getting riled up...this is not any kind of flame to diss to anyone, it is from past experience and the understanding there are differing levels of understanding and knowledge.

Ty is walking near the edge as do many of us at times, and as long as his luck holds and the ground doesn't decide to crumble, the learning process will continue.

I'm almost sorry I posted anything...information seems to get twisted around just like the childrens game of "I said" getting passed around the circle, going in "cat" and coming out "football" or something else even more twisted.

'Njoy

Offline tykempster

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2008, 05:07:11 PM »
 :-[

Sorry to cause such controversy, I believe I've checked these loads as much as possible to make sure they are safe, and I don't plan on shooting many of the fastest XX loads.  I don't think they are unsafe in an H&R action, or anything as stought as them.  There is no brass sticking to the chamber, gun opens easy, no lug setback.

NFG, I wasn't asking for any load information from you, just wanted you to see I am using a case that gained a fairly large amount in case capacity.  I'll refrain from posting any results on this forum again...

Offline krod47nw

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Re: 45-120 Chrono Results
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 05:20:11 AM »
Don't get discouraged Tyler.  I look forward to your posts.  Not everyone has to aggree with them.

Kevin
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