38-55 bore diameters

[cwlongshot]

I read thru many of the prev posts on the spacious bore dimensions of the Handi 38-55's.  I had similar "worries" before I got my marlin some years back. The Marlin proved to have the "good" barrel and .379 dia slugs work perfectly.

 I received my latest handi from Warrior here on the board. (Thanks man!!) Just before a quick trip to my deer camp in New York. SO, of coarse I took it along. I grabbed some lead loads that worked well for cowboy shoots in the Marlin. A 245Gr lead slug in front of 10gr of Unique in Win brass.  Off the porch, into the wood pile I took two shots. They both went into the end of a 12" dia log. Later on we where splitting some of those logs and noticed the holes. Don't ya know it split perfectly, revealing the slug had penetrated some 9" of the seasoned hard wood!!



 Then I began looking closer at the slug and noticed it was lacking rifling marks.



Now I know the handi has them as the bore was bright and clean when it arrived. I plucked out the bullet and dropped it into the bore of the handi. She made it to the floor in a split second... slid right threw with no troubles at all. 



I'm gonna dig out my creo-safe and make a casting to see just what I have here. Is there a common bore for the Handi's? I also read that sometimes you can not even load the correct bullet as the chambers are not cut properly. Who have you used to "fixed" your chambers?
 Lastly, I remember Quick has a 405 made from a 38-55. What other calibers has any one done. I would LOVE a 25-35 or a 32-40. Wanna try to make the 38-55 work but if its a costly thing I am opt for the caliber change instead. I mean I still have the Marlin in 38-55 anyhow.

CW

[Tencubed]

I'm guessin that bullet got smeared and swedged down by that chunk of dry firewood.   

Mike

[quickdtoo]

CW, welcome to the wonderful world of the 38-55 Target!! Those made before Marlin started making the barrels in early 2007 were overbore and under necked making it impossible for the most part to load accurate ammo, but when those earlier barrels are neck reamed to allow chambering of .380" and bigger cast bullets, they're good shooters. Mine is a 2007 model and shoots .379" jacketed bullets very accurately, I have .280gr and 330gr .380" cast bullets loaded up but haven't shot them yet. Slug the bore and do a chamber cast, then proceed accordingly. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148853.msg1098617662.html#msg1098617662

[cwlongshot]

Thanks Tim,
 I just checked and looks like mine is a 2006 (marked HW) receiver. 

 Opening the chamber up doesn't sound like a big deal. Is it something any GS worth his salt could handle? If no, who would you recomend? Also, a quick search dosen't turn up any MFG's of anything bigger than the .379 - .380 dia lead bullets. (I just sent a E-mail to Rick in Alaska.)

I also just remembered another grand old cartridge.. The 40-65. Same .406 bore as the other big .40's but lower powered and rimmed!!  (Something I LOVE my handis to be!!) http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zglmksm0fpkw5abevxiok155))/categories/partList.aspx?catID=2&subID=190&styleID=926

CW

[quickdtoo]

Rimrock has .382" cast bullets, and Sage Brush sells theirs as cast, you can check with them to see if they have some biggies. You could easily "beagle" a mould and make your own. Here's a link from the FAQs on the 38-55 in case you missed it....

http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/gazette/jan06.html

I would check with Fred at 4D to see if he has a neck reamer to rent. If not, Old Scout has been recommended for this task, see John Boy's reply in the bottom link below. The 40-65 looks like it would be fun. 

Tim

http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=1dc54ab208726da71aa3578b9bebaac8

http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/bullets.htm

http://www.4-dproducts.com/contact.php

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,132408.msg1098498577.html#msg1098498577

[OBXPilgrim]

Guess the oversize 38-55 bore is another one of those die hard "cheap Handi" myths that just doesn't go away.  I wish I had one, maybe someday I'll run into someone fed up with his at the same time I have a extra wad of cash. 

I think some of the other folks on the most cast bullet shooting forum have figured out how to shoot the 38-55 by shooting soft lead cast bullets in them.  I don't have one & haven't tried it but most of those guys that have, size to as large as they can chamber & let the soft slug get "mashed-up" to the size of the bore with the firing pressure behind the slug.

The "cheap" Handi has the same bore tolerance as some of your much more valuable Winchester, Marlins, Uberti's, etc, some old, some new.  Here's some threads from another forum with some of the expensive "overbore" 38-55's from other manufacturers:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=29961&page=4

[John Boy]

CW - the 38-55 has shallow grooves (mine is 0.002)  Could be a reason why the bullet looked like a slug gun spent round.

[lonewolf5348]

CW: I like the whole you made with 10 grains of powder and the 245 grain lead slug
I did some work up loads with my 38-55 but using IMR 3031 26.5 grains under a 255 lead slug
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a380/lonewolf5347/38-55002.jpg
I just added some more powder and obtain the same group with 30 grains of IMR 3031 :Would say in the ball park of 1600 fps
The slug sarco mould #738 BHN of 12 air cooled and starline brass
My 38-55 which is a 2007 year barrel has a excellent bore .378.5  I also did notice using starline brass I went up as far as .381 on the cast bullet and chambers with out any problems
A whole different ball game using winchester brass :The Winchester brass will only chamber a .379 bullet in the B.C.

[cwlongshot]

Well, I just got a response for the 4D reamer guy. They do indeed have what I need!!

 I also placed an order for some Star-line Brass as everything I have for the '55 is Win.
BTW, I AM able to chamber the win brass and .379 bullets, but there is resistance.

 Still looking for my cerrosafe... I haven't used it in some time, so I will have to hold off on the bullet order.

CW

[cwlongshot]

Just to clarify, I want the reamer for the .400 case mouth and I'll also need the handle right?

 CW

[Dead doc]

I had that trouble with my Handi TM  in 38-55 
   MIne slugged at 3795   I needed to shoot 380 or 381 bullets to use cast.  Mine would not chamber anything over 377 with WW Brass.   I finaly went to the  Star Line Brass  and with the thinner brass I have no trouble chambering   380 and 381 cast bullets .    MINE shoots quite well with 380 cast GC bullets
 took a nice doe with the gun last season .   
  Its my understanding that  H&R went with orignal chamber specs from the older guns made by Winchester, Savage and Marlin from the turn of the century ( 20th centruy )
 Most of the older guns had smaller chambers with large barrels . Loaded amuntion of the day  was made of pretty soft lead  ( 20/1 or 30/1) and was made with large Cup bases or hollow bases to lend a hand to expansion in the barrel .  Ammo coud be made easier that way to conform to any given difference between the manufacturers of the rifles .
    I have an orignal Savage 1899,in 38/55 made in 1916 that has  the same problem . It has a  large barrel with small chamber   MY 1886 Winchester in 38/56 has the identical problem also.    Barrel on that gun is 3805 but the chamber will not handle anything over  378 in a loaded cartridge without severe inside and out side neck turning .   
 Pulled bullets from  the oder  cartridges  show none of them that I can find to be over 377   but ALL have cup or hollow bases  ( either for smlokelss or  BP factory loads )  I just fired some orignal factory loads for the 38/56 Win in my rifle and the BP loads still go off nicely ( Last listing I can find for Factory loaded cartridges in BP is  1928)  I shot  5 of these old cartridges  and they allwentinside of  2.5 incches at  100yrds off the bench   Not bad for such old ammo    Point is that  you either have to go with tghe Star line brass , have the chamber reamed , or have a custom mould made for hollow based bullets
   Since Star LIne brass did it for me  That was the easiest and cheapest way to go .
MY Savage  will shoot the  Barnes  Original bullet in 377 VERY WELL with tang Peep three shot groups will shoot under  1.25 in EvERY TIME  Good option for those guns  I wanted MY H&R , to be a cast bullet only gun, so went the route that took me longer .   
 Hope it helps some
   

[Smokin Joe]

CW,

You'll need the .400 mouth reamer. You don't need the handle if you have a big enough tap wrench.

[cwlongshot]

Thanks guys for all the comments!!  They are VERY MUCH appreciated!!!!

 I got the order from Midway today with the new bar of cerrosafe. (Never could find my other one. I am SURE to find it shortly.  ) Also grabbed some of the long Star-line brass. and my fav .44 gold dot 270's for the 155.

 I have spoken with the reamer guy and he has what I need in a .400 38-55 reamer. Joe GOOD NEWS on the handle!!

Kind of perplexed as to what to do... Guess I'll start with the cast and decide from there.

CW

[Graybeard]

I read lots of complaints regarding the NEF .38-55 barrels being over size and requiring larger than normal diameter bullets which often when loaded will then not chamber.

As I understand the situation it's not the larger diameter bullet that will not chamber so much as it is the larger bullet inside the case causes the case to not fit the chamber. Is this a correct understanding of the sitaution?

If so they why the heck not take the simple cost effective solution of just reaming the case a couple thousandths or outside trimming it to fit? That should even make the rifle more accurate as you can adjust the case thickness out there at the end to fit the chamber better and thus make a bad situation into a plus not a minus.

Am I missing something here?

[quickdtoo]

I don't think that would be a viable option if the brass is a thin as Starline long 38-55 brass is at only .007" thick at the case neck, for comparison I measured some Rem 30-30 Brass which is .011" thick.

Tim

[Graybeard]

But ya only need to take off about 0.001" on each side right?

[quickdtoo]

That might work, dunno, mine works like it should out of the box!! But....I've neck turned brass and it's kinda tedious, I think I'd rather neck ream the chamber once and be done with it, than to have to turn all my new brass. And if ya don't already have a neck turner, that costs about the same or more than a rental reamer from Fred. 

Tim

[Ireload2]

The chamber neck is tapered too. It needs to be reamed to give it parallel sides.

[C A Plater]

This all looks like way too much work to get a factory "target" gun to shoot half way straight.  I thought I had a recipe that would work but the same load on a different day and the bullets are flying sideways again.   I've played with mine enough and rather than foist this lemon on another it is time to send it to the scrap pile. 

[Tallwalker]

Manufacturers make things to SAMMI specs to keep themselves out of trouble. SAMMI meets on a regular basis to discuss new calibers, and to talk about dimensional issues. The problem is that the representitive that the companies send to these meetings are only sometimes shooters, and very seldom are reloaders. So, as the saying goes, "the beat goes on". Sometimes too, companies give dimensions to SAMMI that are not quite what they are actually doing, not that it makes it any harder for other companies to compete, or anything! There was quite a row about that when the 7-08 came out, and other companies had trouble getting their guns to shoot as well as the Remingtons were. I guess all is fair in love, and competition. It would be nice if the representitives going to those SAMMI meetings were shooters, reloaders, and bullet casters especially since casters tend to know more about their guns dimensionally than general shooters.

  I was at the Ruger web site the other day, and noticed that they had a place there to send a note to the CEO. Perhaps other companies will follow suite, and perhaps that would be a good place to suggest such things. It is vital for a gun company's profits that they produce firearms that work well with the components, and factory ammo that is commonly available to shooters. Gun companies do a lot of testing prior to releasing a new firearm, but don't spend as much time on accuracy as they might, and some engineer types don't expect much from the "old fashoned" calibers that many of us like so well.  Then, when sales are poor they think that no one really wants that caliber anyway.

[John Boy]

To give you a better idea what's going on, look at the SAMMI specifications for the 38-55:  http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd3855.jpg
The issue with the H&R is not the case.  It is the chamber dimension respective to a lead bullet diameter.  At the factory H&R uses Winchester factory jacketed ammunition for their testing.  Their chamber was never cut to accept lead bullets with a 379 - 380 diameter

So, cast a lead bullet in the .379 to .380" range v .3775 jacketed - put it in any 38-55 case and it bulges the case and won't chamber (.0025 excess)

This has been an issue with all the 38-55 barrels.  What to do?  Send the barrel to Old Scout who has the reamer and for about $25 plus shipping you will have the proper sized chamber for lead bullets
R. F. Clark, Gunsmith
640 Emerald St.,
Upland, Calif. 91786
909-984-1548
Old Scout (o.scout@verizon.net)

Then load up the bulged 379-380 cases - fireform them and your worries are gone forever.  You'll also be able to shoot groups like this using them heavy 330gr lead bullets that most every one says won't shoot in a 38-55 with a 1:18 twist :

Bottom 4 holes are 6 o'clock hold - rest are bullseye hold with elevation adjustment


200yd - same H&R and recipe as 100yds:  'D' holes in the 10 ring are after sight adjustments for A-B-C holes


I'm in the process of working up a load for the Rams at 500m ... consistently!

And Gentlemen ... this rifle has NEVER had a scope on it - iron sights only!

[C A Plater]

This is what Winchester factory ammo does at about 30 yards. 


If H&R tested the gun they never bothered to looked at the target.  SAAMI or not it is not acceptable performance.  When you buy a CZ rifle it comes with a test target shot at a reasonable range so you have some indication of quality control.  Had H&R test fire each one and included the target, all those problems would have never made the field.  The kicker is since they fielded this junk, they did not correct the obvious defect and used the "it is to SAAMI specification" ruse.  Had this been a bad T/C barrel, and I've had a couple, they would stand behind it and replace the barrel.  Perhaps the Cerberus management will recognize how much poor quality costs them in future business and improve the quality control.