Author Topic: 700 Remington Quality  (Read 36603 times)

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Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2008, 04:05:59 AM »
Yes the designs were first used in the 700 series... M/721  rifles released in March of 1948 and 722, M/725 in 1958 and M,700 in 1962.

The initial program initiated in 1942 by DuPonts R&M Committee (Re-conversion and Modernization) program was to develop a "Low Cost Of Manufacture Bolt Action Rifle" to make the company profitable again. DuPont was considering closing the doors of Remington at the end of the second world war. In the event you do not know, DuPont owned Remington from 1933 to 1993?

Edited to add:

Around 1980 Remington became a wholly owned subsidiary of DuPont when the extent of the  safety related problems were realized.  Subsequently Remington was merged into the fabrics and finishes department of DuPont and run just like another department of DuPont, which Remington was run by high ranking DuPont employees at the highest levels of Remington management. Probably one of the most notable, was Bobby Brown, who was the CEO of Consol Inc. (Consolidation Coal) and Pres. of Remington also...

Another Company was established to basically control the operations of Remington, known as Sporting Goods Properties Inc. that was suspected to be a means to insulate the parent company from the liability for the conduct of Remington  in the area of defect in the current production fire control of that era... The trigger connector design. This is known as "Alter Ego".

For more back ground, read my post above concerning the fire control development... In this area we have a serious problem!

Aug ><>

Offline saltydog

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2008, 03:57:36 AM »
Believe me, I wish I had the confidence in Remington that I used to. 

After they burned me on my LTR .308 (and that's exactly what they did) and refused to do anything to a gun that was less than two weeks old, after they even admitted that the barrel was sub-standard, that's when they got on the crap list for me.  1st to tell me that there is no standard for accuracy on a law enforcement rifle, and then tell me the barrel is crap, but I'll have to pay a couple hundred bucks for them to replace it, sorry, I just can't play that game.

I've had other mechanical issues with them, but they weren't just because the gun was a Remington.  BUT, I haven't had any issues like those on other brands.............not that it couldn't happen, but it just hasn't.

I don't have the confidence in the brand or that they'll support the brand, so I won't spend my money on them if I can get something else that fits my desires.
  KYElkhunter - Could you post a copy of the correspondence from Remington refusing to deal with your problem - there is so much conjecture, bias and other forms of material being thrown around in this thread a look at your ducumentation would quiet those who could think your post is bs.  I am a lucky one as my Remingtons have all performed at least to my expectations. I just picked up a R25 and it has a solid fit and finish and is sub moa accurate with my ammo. I have a 700 with a tight chamber that will chamber any factory ammo but needs to have fired brass fl resized to chamber - I figure I am lucky because the rifle is very accurate. If there is a weakness in Remington's line I would say it is the cheap plastic stocks the put on low cost rifles.

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2008, 11:17:44 AM »
Shoot, that deal with the LTR was a few years ago.  I don't even worry about it anymore.  I know what happened, I know other people that have had issues, such is life.  It could happen with ANY company.  I personally have NEVER had a problem with anything made by Ruger, either in quality or accuracy, but there are people who have, so I just let them go on and "don't worry about it."   ;D

As for stocks, well, anymore, cheap plastic stocks are what all of the gun companies use today on most of their guns:  Remington, Ruger, Marlin, Weatherby, Sako, Tikka, Savage, Browning, the list goes on...   Certain models offered do come with a high quality composite or laminate stock, but I've found that often it's cheaper to buy the stock yourself than to pay the premium of having a factory worker bolt a $200 B&C stock on stainless Remington 700 action (example) and charging me $300 for it.   ;)

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2008, 12:13:20 PM »
"  KYElkhunter - Could you post a copy of the correspondence from Remington refusing to deal with your problem - there is so much conjecture, bias and other forms of material being thrown around in this thread a look at your ducumentation would quiet those who could think your post is bs. "

If someone wants to volunteer their time to post images for me I can document my claims if anyone thinks what I posted is BS, conjecture or bias. The companies internal memoranda surrounding this issue speaks for itself ;O)

Aug ><>

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #94 on: November 26, 2008, 05:50:35 AM »
I note there are still lots of hits on this thread, but no one is posting or asking any questions. With that I offer this material as food for thought to those who are interested in some small truths about this vast issue. While I agree there are small inaccuracies in some of the content, and in other area's more detail would be in order, but maybe this material posted below is a good starting point for some of the basics surrounding "facts from fiction" in this area.

Aug ><>

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #95 on: November 26, 2008, 05:53:04 AM »
1947 Pilot Line Testing of M/721
http://drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-47-Memo.pdf




Jan. 2, 1979 Product Safety Sub- Committee (Safe Gun Handling)
http://drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf


1994 Business Week Article : Titled "Remington faces a misfiring squad"
http://drinnonlaw.com/docs/Business-Week-Article-Remington.pdf



Defective Remington 700 Bolt-Action Rifle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Remington’s Defective Trigger System
A Historical Summary

Extensive Claims and Litigation History

As early as 1947, Remington was aware that its bolt-action rifles would sometimes fire absent a trigger pull.  (click on here to review 1947 Remington memo)


To date, Remington has received over 4,000 customer complaints of unintended discharge for the Model 700 and 710 alone.  Over 100 injured individuals have sued Remington over the same defective design.  Remington and its insurers have paid to settle most of the claims.


Ignoring thousands of customer complaints, Remington refused to recall its rifles, install a new trigger, or warn its customers of the potential danger.  (click on here to review Remington memos dated January 2, 1979 and February 7, 1980 wherein Remington admits to its own defect and recognizes the danger to its customers)


Instead, Remington designed the new 710 (introduced in 2001) using the very same defective M700 fire control.


Not surprisingly, Remington has already received numerous complaints from its customers of unintended discharge, mirroring the complaint history of the 700.


The Defect

Remington’s trigger mechanism uses an internal component called a “connector” – a design component not used by any other rifle manufacturer.  The connector floats on top of the trigger body inside of the gun, but is not physically bound to the trigger in any way other than tension from a spring. When the trigger is pulled, the connecter is pushed forward by the trigger, allowing the sear to fall and fire the rifle.


The proper position of the connector under the sear is an overlap of only 25/1000ths of an inch, but because the connector is not bound to the trigger, the connector separates from the trigger body when the rifle is fired and creates a gap between the two parts.


Any dirt, debris or manufacturing scrap can then become lodged in the space created between the connector and the trigger, preventing the connector from returning to its original position. 


Remington’s defective fire control could have been redesigned to eliminate the harm or danger very inexpensively. There is no valid engineering reason why the successfully utilized connectorless designs could not have been used by Remington in its Model 700 and 710.


In fact, Remington has recently done just that for the Model 700 with a newly designed trigger, the X-Mark Pro. That design, which eliminates the connector, was completed in 2002. However, Remington chose to continue with its prior unsafe design for financial reasons, never warning the public.  Even today, Remington installs the new fire control into some but not all of its bolt-action rifles, leaving many users at risk with the old and defective design.
Jury Verdicts and Appellate Court Opinions of Remington’s Defective Fire Control

In Lewy v. Remington, 836 F.2d 1104, 1106-07 (8th Cir. 1988); the Eighth Circuit upheld a finding of punitive damages against Remington in 1985.


In Campbell v. Remington Arms Co., 1992 WL 54928 (9th Cir. 1992)(unpublished opinion); affirmed a jury verdict of $724,000 based on a fire on bolt closure, finding no error.


Later in 1992, the Texas Supreme Court, in Chapa v. Garcia, specifically describes Remington’s fire control as “defective.”


In 1994, a Texas jury rendered a verdict in Collins v. Remington after Glenn Collins lost this foot to a Model 700 accidental discharge. The jury found that the fire control was defective and awarded a $15 million in exemplary damages. The total verdict was in excess of $17 million.  (click on here to review Business Week article entitled “Remington Faces A Misfiring Squad”)


The verdicts stopped with the Collins verdict.  After that, Remington settled all claims.  Instead of recalling or replacing the defective fire control, Remington has quietly paid almost $20 million to settle claims out of court, finally replacing the fire control only in 2007.
Remington’s Redesign Efforts After the $17 million Collins Verdict

After Collins, Remington again contemplated a recall and again recognized the need to redesign its fire control.  Internal documents detail Remington’s extensive knowledge of the problem. However, until it finally introduced a new fire control in 2007 (a design that eliminates the connector), Remington consistently chose to forego a safer design. 
Timeline of Redesign Efforts

In 1995, Remington openly acknowledges the need to “fix” the fire control and “eliminate” ‘Fire on Safety Release’ malfunction.”


In 1997, when Remington embarked on the design of the Model 710, documents reflect Remington’s desire not to include the M700 “Walker” –based fire control in the M710.


Remington designers then developed several connectorless fire controls for the M710.  Remington documents clearly show that the new designs were favored (“The new concept barrel and fire control analysis was complete with excellent results.”)


However, the designs met their downfall during Remington’s economic analysis.  Project spending was put on hold in May 1998 “until economics and project is approved.”  That approval never came.  In August 1998, the safer designs were abandoned due to an “estimated cost increase.”


Remington instead decided to pull the unsafe Model 700 fire control off the shelf and use it in the new Model 710 to “eliminate development cost and time.”


As Remington began its internal testing of the new Model 710 (with the old Model 700 fire control installed), Remington, knowing the history of the design, warned its internal testers of the possibility of inadvertent discharge;
For each of the four rounds in the magazine the tester will close the bolt “smartly” –(i.e. as quickly as practical” –and be prepared for the rifle to inadvertently follow down or fire.

No such warning is provided to customers that purchase the Model 700 or 710, nor was such a warning given to the Barber parents, whose son died as the result of the trigger defect.  (click on here to review excerpts from – CBS News 2001)

In 2000, a Model 710 rifle fired on bolt closure during Remington’s testing.  Remington’s own expert witness in litigation admits that Remington “could not nail down” the reason for the discharge without a trigger pull.


In preparation for the introduction of the M710 to market, Remington Consumer Team Meeting minutes from 2001 reveal that Remington planned for personal injuries of its customers as a result of inadvertent discharges from Model 710 rifles:
Safety/Injury Calls and the Model 710 – Ken – If a consumer calls with a safety concern, (i.e. FSR, fires when closed, personal injury or property damage, etc), these calls AND firearms go to Dennis or Fred

Predictably, Remington began receiving reports of injury and accidental discharge from the Model 710 almost identical to the thousands of complaints it had received from the Model 700 soon after its release.
APPROXIMATELY FOUR MILLION DEFECTIVELY DESIGNED REMINGTON TRIGGERS ARE STILL BEING TRUSTED AND USED BY THE UNSUSPECTING AMERICAN SPORTSMAN.
 

Offline Guy Pike

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2008, 11:56:01 AM »
Yes, but swampman says you can't beat Remington! ;) ;) ;) ;)
You can't beat a Cerberus!

Offline mechanic

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2008, 02:23:59 PM »
I've never owned but one Remington.  It was bought at a pawnshop for $100.00 with a broken stock, a ton of rust, and mud plugged in the bore.  I don't know it's history, but a good cleaning and an aftermarket stock and it will put the bullets in the same hole at 50 yds.  Sorta like a Timex, it kept on tickin'.

Ben
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Dan Carey

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2008, 06:50:54 AM »
Every firearms manufacturer has been sued for something. It's difficult to make anything idiot proof.

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2008, 02:32:48 PM »
Every firearms manufacturer has been sued for something. It's difficult to make anything idiot proof.

Ok Dan, I will bite... and your point is exactly what???

Aug ><>

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2008, 11:06:22 AM »
Every firearms manufacturer has been sued for something. It's difficult to make anything idiot proof.

It is indeed hard to make everything idiot proof - but it is not hard to eliminate known problems when the fix is known and inexpensive, as is the case with Remington and the M700 triggers.

The idiots were not the unsuspecting buyers but the people running Remington.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline john keyes

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2008, 11:13:10 AM »
can you guys dumb it down a little, what I gathered is that they experienced problems with:
-slam fires
-discharge on safety

am I correct?

 ???
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2008, 11:48:31 AM »
John -

I don't know about slamfires but I do know they had a problem with discharges occuring when the safety was moved to the 'Fire' position.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2008, 01:15:42 PM »
John

The trigger connector design has (not "Had") a propensity to fire on safety release, fire when the bolt is closed, or opened and  Jar Off if bumped. All of these conditions can result if the Trigger Connector fails to return to a secure and reliable sear support condition or if the connector becomes trapped in the firing notch.

Please review the 1947 "pilot line inspection" record. Also note this record was generated about 11 months before the M/721 rifle was released to the public. No changes were made to the design to protect the system from these forms of malfunction which produce a discharge absent a trigger pull, even though a concept existed as early as May of 1944. On the contrary the design that went to production, the one we have come to know was a neutered version of a design that Mike Walker had developed and I believe always intended to utilize. The more secure design was superceded on or around July 24,1946 by the one that ultimately went to production and was of course about 6 cents per gun more expensive to produce... In 1948 dollars.

Pandora's box was opened when the M/721 went to production and was released to the public in March of 1948

Aug ><>

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #104 on: November 29, 2008, 03:21:51 PM »
The current production Remington 700 still has the problem?

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2008, 05:45:50 AM »
Ron

The X Mark Pro is a connector-less design, and further incorporates a trigger block which prevents trigger movement with the safety in the on safe position. The X Mark came on line roughly about December 31, 2006.

This IS the same concept feature Mike Walker intended to utilize in his 1944 fire control design to protect the previous connector  design from those listed forms of malfunction that became known to them 11 months before release... all attributable to the failure of the trigger connector feature to offer a secure and reliable means to support the sear.

Further, as early as 1946 Mike Walker started warning management of "a theoretical Un-Safe condition of the M/721 safety".


Many believe the safety is the heart of the problems... not the case, it is a trigger malfunction.

To my knowledge there are potentially 5 million M/700 in the field not including other product lines that utilized the connector design and so I further believe the public has a serious problem on their hands.

Safe gun handling is a good goal, but if you can not control WHEN an arm may fire creates the added potential for an accident, where at the very leased someone may be injured and loose a body part, or worse...

This is my argument to Remington disseminating the message concerning "Safe Gun Handling" instead of recalling know defective guns intentionally and deliberately left in the hands of their customers in the 70s, or again at the very leased warning the public of these dangerous propensities to malfunction...

This was for all intensive purposes a strategic defensive posture to defend cases by lawyers acting on Remington behalf, that were actually employed by DuPont, potentially to protect the best interests of Remington's parent company.

Incidentally the "cannon" of an engineer is basically this...

If a engineer designs a product and realize a safety problem exists or later materializes you then:

Design the problem out, if you cant do this you protect against the condition that produces that malfunction, and if that can not be accomplished they have an obligation to warn about the condition.

An engineer has an obligation to ensure a design of their creation will not injure or kill another human being!

Every C/F Product line Remington/DuPont has produced with the exception of the M/788 has employed the trigger connector since March of 1948

The trigger connector design is unique to the world of firearms and exclusive to Remington firearms alone, if truly such an AWESOME feature then why did nobody else in the aftermarket industry adopt this feature then???

There you have some food for thought and some pause for concern before you hand one of these rifles down to one of your  children entering the ranks of young hunters, or  grand children that you deeply care about, that may enable the cycle to continue for future generations....

Aug ><>


Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2008, 05:09:07 AM »
"The modification will remove the bolt-lock mechanism from the rifle"

Dumbest thing they ever did.

This is exactly like the transfer bar on a New Model Ruger Single Action revolver.  It's a corrective action for a problem that didn't exist.

Swampman

FYI, the official internal position for the Feb 26, 1982 bolt lock deletion was for this reason

 "Intended to put us in a more secure  position with respect to product liability"

Source: Operations Committee
July 17, 1980, Minute #14,  page 26

There is a BIG difference! The Bolt lock in essence was/is a trap! The gun handler was/is forced to push the safety forward to the off position to disengage the bolt lock to allow the unloading process to begin...

Pushing the safety to the off position could potentially create a safety induced discharge, Remington terms this malfunction an "FSR" (fire on safety release)

This sequence of operation was foreseeable and an intended part of the function of this design. The subsequent discharge from releasing the safety (FSR) comes as a great surprise to most gun handlers, but not to Remington as they have been fielding complaints of this nature from us, their customers, longer than most of us have been alive, or at leased since 1948 if you were born before that year ;O)



Aug ><>

 

Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2008, 05:52:53 AM »
The current production Remington 700 still has the problem?

There is no (and never was) a problem.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2008, 06:16:45 AM »
The current production Remington 700 still has the problem?

There is no (and never was) a problem.

Swampman

Then how do you explain the internal records and articles posted above??

Aug ><>

Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2008, 06:24:23 AM »
The fix was created for a problem that didn't exist.  Don't cover anything you don't wish to put a hole in with the muzzle of your rifle.  The only real safety is between your ears. 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2008, 07:08:13 AM »
Swampman, you are right about muzzle control, but the fact is a rifle should never discharge just because the safety is released.  If that was a problem Remington dealt with in the past that was still a problem. If the problem still exists it is more than a problem, it jeopardizes the entire company.

What bothers me is the notion that any risk manager would put up with the possibility of discharge on safety release.  The fix is cheap. There is no upside.  Tolerating that defect should result in the firing of the risk management team and everybody up the chain of command to the board of directors. 

Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2008, 07:16:05 AM »
The new X-Mark Pro trigger, eliminated the customer induced so called problem.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2008, 07:30:28 AM »
The fix was created for a problem that didn't exist.  Don't cover anything you don't wish to put a hole in with the muzzle of your rifle.  The only real safety is between your ears.  

That is Remingtons defensive arguement alright, its almost like you took the words right out of their mouth.

With that, so will I:

From a letter from Earl Larson to Robert Sperling April 21, 1981 (A DuPont Lawyer and the "Acting Secretary" of the Product Safety Sub Committee)



Subject: SAAMI - NSSF Safety Advertising

(Quote) E.F. Barrett called today (April 20, 1981), advissing that W. Horn (President of Federal) has contacted J.P. McAndrews about an extension of the above program beyond the ten items already covered in the media and contained in the SAAMI booklet. He feels additional items will dilute the ten originally selected. (End quote)


The record goes on to say:

(Quote) It was my opinion from the start of this program, that we would select ten items we felt were important, and get them out to the public. Once that was done, based on complaint and legal experience, we would suggest others to SAAMI and that this would be a continuing program. By so doing, we would be in a stronger position legally because we could show the industry did publicize these many safety items. (End Quote)

In 1975 Remington concluded a special safety audit on C/F bolt action rifles already in the hands of the public which were gathered from wholesalers from around the country. One Model alone, the Mohawk 600 revealed a 55.9% failure rate out of a sample of 615 rifles gathered and tested, in that the effected rifles would fire on safety release under certain safety/trigger manipulation operations. The condition was termed "The Trick Condition" but NO recall or warning was issued at that time.

According to Remington's OWN estimates in 1979, they estimated that 1% of 2 million M/700 rifles already in the field would "Trick" and that a recall would undercut the message they planned to communicate to the public concerning "Safe Gun Handling".

The record goes on to say:

That would mean the recall would have to gather 2 million rifles JUST to find 20,000 rifles susceptible to the trick condition.

Those effected  rifles were NEVER recalled... Where are they now if never accounted for, Still in the field in hands of the public.... With that:

1) Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

2) Never trust a safety which is a mechanical device, which can fail

3) Never contact the trigger while the safety selector in the 'ON' safe position

I have more bad news for you, History also suggests the Holocaust may have actually happened ;O)

Aug ><>




Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2008, 07:31:56 AM »
What I said.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mrbigtexan

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2008, 05:26:24 PM »
does this problem affect the 788 rifle?

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2008, 05:32:46 PM »
does this problem affect the 788 rifle?

No. But I would still exercise proper muzzle control when handling a 788.

Update: Pre-1975 models might have  had a similar problem. Here is a quote from a Remington Circular that focused on the Model 700 problems:

Remington Model 788 bolt-action rifles are not included in the safety modification program.

Model 788 rifles were manufactured from 1967 until 1983. Model 788 rifles made before 1975 were equipped with a bolt-lock mechanism. IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE: If you have a Model 788 rifle with a bolt-lock mechanism, the manual safety must be placed in the .F. or .Off or Fire. position to lift the bolt and begin the process of unloading the rifle. Be sure the rifle is pointing in a safe direction anytime you move the manual safety to the .F. or .Off or Fire. position. After you have lifted the bolt, slide the bolt rearward and then immediately put the manual safety back in the .S. or .On safe. position and then continue the unloading process.

Regardless of whether your Model 788 rifle has a bolt-lock mechanism you must always follow the 10 Commandments of Firearm Safety. Special care must be taken during the loading and unloading process. Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Always unload your rifle when not actually in use. Every firearm should be unloaded as soon as you are finished shooting . before taking it into your car, camp or house. Remington wants you to enjoy the shooting sports - safely!

Should you desire service on any of your Remington firearms please feel free to call us on our toll free service line (800) 243.9700 or visit the Remington Authorized Repair Center nearest you.

©2002 Remington Arms Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
www.remington.com

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2008, 05:59:17 PM »
The current production Remington 700 still has the problem?

There is no (and never was) a problem.

Remington seems to think there was, but I guess you know better?

The fact is that the trigger design often created an unsafe condition where unwanted discharges were not only possible but likely.  The fact is that in the real world even experts and professionals make mistakes or have momentary lapses and muzzles get pointed in directions they shouldn't be.  The fact is that in the real world Remington management knew all this and decided to continue manufacturing a flawed product.  People were hurt and even killed as a result.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2008, 11:42:05 PM »
Because they violated the #1 rule of gun safety.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Brithunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2008, 12:39:36 AM »
Because they violated the #1 rule of gun safety.

Yep they brought a Remington  ;)

Sorry swampy but that was too good a chance to miss  ;D

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2008, 03:18:59 AM »
Hi fives all around.  Good one Brit. 

Swampy, I doubt everybody who suffered an unexpected discharge violated the first rule of gun safety. It is extremely likely that most discharges resulted in bullets safely slamming into the ground, but if that happened to you I bet you would be on the phone with Remington or your gunsmith ASAP. 

That brings me to my mild defense of both you and Remington.  How come we have only heard about a few catastrophic failures?  Where are the stories about failures that didn't result in death or injury?   With 20,000 plus defective rifles in the market place over the last 60 years they should be common.