Author Topic: Which AR? (Read 4625 times)

Graybeard · « **on:** November 07, 2008, 01:00:24 PM »

OK guys the way this election came out and the way I see future events unfolding I have decided it's time for me to get an AR even tho I've never had any interest in one before.

I'm not necessarily looking for the best or the cheapest really and quite frankly have never given them even a passing thought in the past. It must be .223 and take the standard commonly available mags so I can stock up on ammo and mags at best prices.

I'm not particularly into black guns so one in camo or green or whatever would to me actually be a plus but color isn't gonna be a deal breaker either. It will be a strictly utilitarian last ditch defense use gun for me.

What should I be looking at to meet those requirements?

Cheesehead · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:08:03 PM »

You may want to base your decision some what on availability, I hear they are suddenly in short supply.

Cheese

Dee · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:09:42 PM »

GB, I carried a Colt AR rifle version for years in the field. I switched to an AR A2 carbine also a Colt and carried it in the field for several years. Eventually sold both and literally firing thousands of rounds thru both over a 20 year period, with not one single malfunction.
Switched to a Bushmaster several years ago in the carbine version and telescoping stock 16" bull barrel. Traded it for the flattop with removable handle-sight, and like it much better. I liked the Bushmaster better, and both out shot my Colts, and cost a little less. With a good quality low power scope, they are tack drivers. Keep them oiled and they are extremely reliable. They will shoot dirty, but they don't cycle well dry. JMO

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:17:33 PM »

Immediate availability is not a major issue. I suspect that in a month or so more will be available and I can wait that long. I definitely don't want a carbine or folding or telescoping stock model.

I'm currently thinking hard on the Remington R15 due to the camo coloration and I do like the features it seems to have. They don't list twist rate on barrel on their site, anyone got a clue on it? I expect to use 55 grain FMJ primarily so I guess the standard twist rate is likely fine whatever it is.

I'll probably get out this weekend or next week to see what is available locally and their prices.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:25:34 PM »

Most Ars now have the fast twist to shoot the 69gr and up rounds, Most I've seen are compareable quality. I happen to like the Double Starr line mostly cause they are made here in KY. I also prefer the full size model over the carbines, just don't like the feel of M4s.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:37:02 PM »

I am with Dee on this one. I had a Colt and a Bushmaster. The Bushmaster is a better gun in my experience.

Cheese

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:40:26 PM »

The only AR's that I've fooled with belonged to somebody else, and they were all Bushmasters, in several configurations: bull barrel, A2, A3, M4, standard and carbines. All of them shot EXTREMELY well, better than most .223 bolt actions I've seen. Since Bushmaster is making the R15, I'm sure it will shoot with the best of any of them. I also like a lot of the guns from Rock River Arms in .223 and DPMS for bigger caliber availability. DPMS chambers just about every round you can fit in an AR15 or AR10 platform.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:42:58 PM »

I find the telescoping stock to be a handy feature. It will collapse for compact storage or carry. And it is incrementally adjustable for a perfect fit for the individual shooter. Also adjustable for a t-shirt or heavy cloths.

Cheese

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2008, 01:45:40 PM »

A2, A3, M4, I have no clue what any of that means or why I should care. Why should I? What are the differences between them.

What would the Remington R15 be classified as if any of them?

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2008, 02:02:06 PM »

Go to the Rock River Arms web sight. http://www.rockriverarms.com You can find all the different available options on their sight. I had a couple of Colts when I was in the army. I now have a RRA, because the price was right and Rock River Arms is only 10 miles from my house. Also look at the Armalite and Lewis Machine and Tool rifles. All three companies contract government agencies with their rifles.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2008, 02:16:36 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on November 07, 2008, 01:45:40 PM

A2, A3, M4, I have no clue what any of that means or why I should care. Why should I? What are the differences between them.

What would the Remington R15 be classified as if any of them?

Differences in buttstocks, barrel lengths, types of sights, and whether or not the reciever has a detachable handle on a flat-top Picatinny rail or the original military style carry handle (that takes a special scope mount attachment). It's really more for the accessories you can get for the guns. I don't think that you need to worry about it, I don't think that you're going to "trick" your R15 out.

I'd just go to the Bushmaster website and check out the models and read about them a bit if you really want to know. Earlier this year, one of the gun rags put out a special annual on just the AR15 and it's many variants. I'll find it and maybe you can get a back issue of it. Reading it cleared up a lot of questions that I had.

I believe (and someone who knows better, correct me if I'm wrong) that the R15 would be an A3 configuration, as it has a standard buttstock and a flat-top rail. It's the same as the Bushmaster Predator rifle, but I believe that the R15's use Remington barrels, not the match barrels that Bushmaster uses.

Skunk · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2008, 02:41:03 PM »

Kyel, thanks for pointing out the difference in the barrels between the R15 and the Bushmaster. From what I can find, there seems to be a number of differences between the R15 and the Bushmaster. I mention this because I've heard many people say that the R15 is simply a Bushmaster Predator with a Remington signature. They often base their finding on the fact that Remington is supposed to own Bushmaster (I'm not sure if that is factual or not).

I found the following cut and paste on The Texas Hunting Forum, posted by a WildEd, that is supposed to be a statement made by Byron South, one of the designers of the R15:

Quote from Byron South:

"I know where you guys are coming from when you say it is a Bushy with a camo job. The float tube and gas block are almost the same but that is pretty much where the similarities end(other than the obvious basic AR design features and standard AR parts).

This comparison to the Bushmaster and other AR's for that matter is very expected and welcomed.

I will see if I can explain how the R-15 is different than the Bushmaster or any other AR currently available.

The float tube looks very similar to the ones Bushmaster puts on their Varminter and Predator rifles, but they aren't identical. First, they are shorter on the 18" gun (Mid-length). They are they same length on the 22" gun. If you will notice there is also less cooling vents on the front portion of the tube. This is to accommodate a space to mount a light rail. There are holes drilled and tapped here to mount the light in the position you desire.

The R-15 also differs from the Bushmaster(and all others)in the barrel configuration. the R-15 is available in 18" and 22" barrel lengths of a slimmer profile than the Bushies. To my knowledge no other AR manufacture including Bushmaster makes barrels configured to these dimensions. To me this is the biggest and most favorable feature on the R-15 vs any currently available AR on the market. Why? First off is the weight difference and secondly is the length. To many the 16's are TOOO loud but very handy. By adding 2 inches to the barrel it makes it significantly more comfortable to shoot but the slimmer barrel still mantains the feel of the larger contoured 16" guns. Remington also wanted a longer rifle but instead of just going with a 20 or 24 like Bushmaster and all the others they settled on a 22" and stayed with the slimmer barrel to keep the weight down.

Yet another difference is the single stage trigger. This trigger was desinged exclusively for the R-15. It is supposed to closely resemble a nice trigger on a bolt gun. I've yet to try one as I like the two stage triggers but I've heard from several people they are a nice trigger and adjusted to about 3.5 pounds from the factory.

The bolt carrier is also slightly different than the Bushies.

In a nut shell, this is a way different gun than the Bushmasters and is the first AR designed from the ground up to accommodate the predator hunter. I know this because I help design it. Like I said earlier, comparisons of this rifle with Bushies and others is expected and welcomed but believe me when I say these are not Bushmaster rifles with a Remington roll mark on them.

1. Different barrels (length and contour) button rifled.
2. Different float tube (drilled and tapped for light rail which is included)
3. Nice single stage trigger (Two Stage available on signature gun)
4. Different bolt carrier
5. Camo is standard.
6. Less expensive.
6. also available in .204

I'm not offended that the R-15 is compared to the Bushmaster at all, in fact I think of it as a compliment to the R-15. Remington doesn't hide the fact that Bushmaster was leaned on to an extent for the development and production of this rifle. I believe this was a very smart move. I'm not saying any of this in an attempt to distance the R-15 from Bushmaster but simply to say the R-15 is not a Bushmaster with a Remington name taped over it. If you will compare its features you will see it is a completely different rifle." Byron South

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/369429/page/0/vc/1

Hopefully Graybeard, this will provide a little more insight for you to hash over while considering the R15. It sounds like a really nice rifle.

backstrap · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2008, 04:38:20 PM »

how long have these remmy r15 been made? i would go with a company that has made ar type rifle for years not 1 that just started makeing them,i have 2 DPMS Panther Arms and like them very well have 1 with a 20inch barrel and flat top reciever and the other with the 16 light wight carbine barrel a2 handle,i would get 1 with the a2 handle and a2 one peace stock so if you have a scope on it and some thing goes wrong with the scope u got iron sights to fall back on.i have a friend that shoot compation and all his team mates and him shoot Rock River Arms rifles come with a match trigger

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2008, 05:50:26 PM »

Bushmaster and Remington and now one other AR maker I forget the name are all owned by the same company so they are in effect sister companies. I suspect Bushmaster is actually making them not Remington.

cjclemens · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2008, 06:35:11 PM »

The R-15 is just a green bushmaster. DPMS/Panther is the other manufacturer that's owned by Remington's parent company. I have a DPMS lower with a 20" DTI upper that shoots wonderfully. It's not fancy, but it can put a 3 shot group inside 1/2" at 100. If you don't mind black as opposed to camo, you'll save a bit of money, too. Rock River lowers seem pricey, but I think they come with the 2 stage trigger.

Dee · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2008, 01:44:40 AM »

GB, I am going to add this final comment and leave you to your decision. I have years of experience with this type of rifle both professionally, and recreationally. You already know my preference on brand, but I believe the adjustable butt stock, at least for me is the way to go.
It will transform a long butt stock instantly into an almost no butt stock. When in the field it can be extended, and when used in the home, or other close quarters, it can be retracted. The feel when extended is basically the same as the solid stock, but far more versatile. Just something to think about.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** November 08, 2008, 02:39:37 AM »

For me personally two stage triggers are a abomination and reason enough for me to not select a gun with one. I hear ya Dee but such matters really are personal and a fixed standard stock not the folding or collapsable type are a must for me personally.

jmayton · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2008, 05:26:20 AM »

here's my .02. I use a Colt 6920 (effectively a semi-auto M4) and it is great. I have a friend that has a DPMS carbine and he's spent a good bit more money getting it to shoot like my colt. He can outshoot me now, but not with the heavier bullets (75 grs+). He also built a 20" bull barrel flat top from Model 1 parts. I've handled it, but not shot it. I have a LE friend who has a RRA standard A2. I've checked out the Bushmaster, Rem R-15, and Sabre. All are good, but the devil's in the details. Colt, Sabre, LMT are about the only ones that are truly mil-spec throughout. What that means is they are less likely to come apart, which is not really a likely situation for a civilian anyway. Bottom line, most are good. For mid-priced rifles, the Bushy and the Rem are great. The higher end ones (Colt, Sabre, LMT) may last longer, but really won't outshoot the others. I wouldn't disregard the carbine (short handguard 16" barrel) either. They are very handy in a vehicle and shoot as well as a 20" barrel. Unless it's a bench/varmint gun, the heavy barrels make them real muzzle heavy, so I personally don't like them for a defense or hunting rifle in an AR. The Remington seems to fit your criteria best and as far as I know it's well made and should serve well.

RGS · « **Reply #18 on:** November 08, 2008, 07:04:20 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on November 07, 2008, 01:00:24 PM

OK guys the way this election came out and the way I see future events unfolding I have decided it's time for me to get an AR even tho I've never had any interest in one before.

Yes sir, you, me, and about a gazillion other gun owners. Front page of my local news paper has a story about the local gun stores selling guns of all kinds like mad since the election. Personally, the AR type rifles have been on the back burner of "must have someday guns" for me. Guess what? Someday is here.

Fortunately I have a friend who's experience with these guns is way past my level of understanding. He has been advising all who would listen to "get a black rifle now", since his trip to the 2007 SHOT Show. I am a slow listener...

Don't know how much it matters, but he likes the Stag M3 as the base package and adds rail, iron sights and optics as desired. One of his personal guns will shoot under 1.25" @ 300 yds. (I don't have a bolt gun that can match that... not even close) So yesterday he offered me one last chance to have him add a rifle for me to his last order of rifles for his slower to grasp the situation friends. So that is the direction I went.

Rick

robert4570 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 08, 2008, 12:38:18 PM »

GB ,
I recently went thru the same thing with regards to which one to buy. There are so many variations of AR's that its enough to drive a AR rookie such as myself nuts . After a couple months of back and forth I decided on a S&W MP15 T . It had most of what I wanted already from the factory because I had no plans on tinkering with it ,I'm more in hunting rifles than anything else .

All can say is dont procrastinate , because if you have to order it like my friend did ,you could end up waiting a couple of months.
Good Luck in your decision.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #20 on:** November 09, 2008, 03:43:59 AM »

GB, the one you are looking at and the bushmaster predator are the same rifle. I have a BM, not the Rem. They are made in the BM plant. The BM is 1-8 and 2 stage trigger. The rem is 1-9 and single stage. If you can settle with an ugly black one, check out:
http://www.stagarms.com/
http://www.bushmaster.com/index.asp or rem
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/category.aspx?id=3
If you like the camo, BM and Rem are the only two I know of with a good price point.
In that order, they are all rougly the same price.
You can even go 7.62x39mm instead of 5.56 if you wish.
Not saying that what ever anyone else has is inferior but these are the cheapest well built AR's out there. They have the least QC issues of any of the AR's in the last 10 years under $1000.

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #21 on:** November 09, 2008, 04:19:06 AM »

I recently purchased a Remington R15 carbine and I am quite happy with it. I mounted a Simmons pro Diamond 4x shotgun scope on it .This gives me plenty of magnification out to 200 yds and very fast target aquisition. The rifle takes all aftermarket AR magazines,is very accurate, and functioned flawlessly. Yes it is made by Bushmaster with a couple of minor changes. It is the same gun as the Bushmaster preditor but has a price tag of about $ 300 less. My only complaint is that I can't stop shooting it, I'll go broke trying to keep myself in ammo.
PS It has a 1 in 9 twist barrel as per Remington,and a single stage trigger. Also it was tested ,by me, with about 5 different types om ammo,including reloads , and digested them all without any problems.

Graybeard · « **Reply #22 on:** November 09, 2008, 06:09:58 AM »

The standard R15 has a single stage trigger. Only the limited edition Byron South varmint rifle with shorter barrel has the two stage according to Remington's website.

I'm sure we all have our own prejudices and preferences in such things. Super short barrels, two stage triggers and folding or telescoping stocks are just some of mine. To me personally they are all major turn offs. I'm not saying that each doesn't have it's place or isn't an advantage in some situations. I'm just saying that for me they are not desireable.

As to the color to me camo (first choice) or green or some such is preferable but black is not a deal killer just not my preference. I'll try to get out tomorrow to do some looking to see what is actually on shelves and what can be ordered in within a reasonable time. I know at least one shop that had a bunch of the black ones last time I was there but haven't looked lately. No clue what they were as I really didn't pay attention then. All shops had them the last time I as in there.

As to chambering it absolutely MUST be .223 not 7.62. I have many thousands of .223 cases on hand and a large stock of bullets on hand. I have suitable powders for reloading it on hand. I have nothing on hand for 7.62.

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 09, 2008, 06:52:02 AM »

One gun you may want to consider is the Bushmaster Varminter. I have one and love it. It shoots about 1/2 MOA with my reloads. If you want, 45gr Winchester whitebox ammo shoots great too. It has a 24" barrel.

I have been extremely happy with this gun so far, and that's why I recommend it.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_PCWVMS24FVAR9.asp

Graybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** November 09, 2008, 07:04:31 AM »

Quote from: jasonprox700 on November 09, 2008, 06:52:02 AM

One gun you may want to consider is the Bushmaster Varminter. I have one and love it. It shoots about 1/2 MOA with my reloads. If you want, 45gr Winchester whitebox ammo shoots great too. It has a 24" barrel.

I have been extremely happy with this gun so far, and that's why I recommend it.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_PCWVMS24FVAR9.asp

Other than the single stage trigger I prefer and a 22" as opposed to a 24" barrel that and the Remington R15 appear to be the same rifle. I'm pretty sure Bushmaster is making the R15 for Remington but have not been able to confirm it yet. I'm not sure what real world street pricing is but the R15 lists for a couple hundred bucks less.

Does anyone know for sure if Remington R15 is in fact made by Bushmaster for Remington?

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #25 on:** November 09, 2008, 10:25:11 AM »

yes the R15 is made by Bushmaster for Remington .

myronman3 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 10, 2008, 03:05:37 AM »

i looked at a remington saturday. seemed like a nice rifle, had a heavy but crisp single stage trigger. as far as single stages go, i would rather have a heavy, no creep trigger than a light, creeping trigger. good job on the trigger remington.
i have shot more colts than i care to think about. owned one olypic arms rifle (which i hated so much i took it back immediately without firing it). i owned two bushmasters and shot a friends 6.8 bushy. the bushys are the nicest i have shot so far. the remingtons are viable options if you ask me.
one other note.... the armalite m4's have different trigger assemblies than the other rifles. olys, bushys, colts, and remingtons all seem to use the same parts. this is a major consideration for me, which crosses armalite off my list.

Graybeard · « **Reply #27 on:** November 10, 2008, 03:36:03 AM »

I'm a little surprised by your comment on the heavy pull of the R15. From what I've read it is supposed to be coming from the factory with a pull less than 4 pounds which for a rifle for such uses as I'd likely make of it that's OK. Was it in your opinion much heavier?

45-70.gov · « **Reply #28 on:** November 10, 2008, 04:05:34 AM »

i have a smith and Wesson from the performance center

20 inch barell stainlees middle weight free float float top

most accurate rifle i own

wish it was a little lighter

they now make one real similar in camo [little over $1000]

other than that i am not real informed it is my first one

Bugflipper · « **Reply #29 on:** November 10, 2008, 04:28:58 AM »

Yes, made by BM, I toured the plant in late 07, when I switched to BM as a sponser. They were making r15's there. As I remember the differences were;

1. Different barrels, length, twist, fluting, contour, button rifled non chrome lined (niether is BM predator).
2. Different float tube, drilled and tapped for light rail which is included also different vent pattern
3. Single stage trigger (Two Stage available on signature gun)
4. Different bolt carrier rem not chromed inside.
There may have been more, just can't remember. During the tour the CEO assured me that it was as good as any BM. I already had a predator so skipped shooting it and went with the odd calibers.