Author Topic: Carrierless 209 Breech Plug for Huntsman/Sidekick, Blackhorn 209 Compatable!  (Read 29657 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Busta

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2586
  • Gender: Male
This post will be a work in progress, I will add new information as I go along so check back for updates. I am really excited about this plug, and figured there would be several others that would want them too. This is a must, if you want to shoot Blackhorn 209 reliably out ot the Huntsman/Sidekick.

Finally, a one piece carrierless 209 breech plug for the H&R/NEF Huntsman/Sidekick. This breech plug headspaces off the rim of the 209 primer similar to the Hubbard plug. It is easily installed/removed with a ½” socket or nut driver for the hex head. Only 5/8” plugs are available presently, but there is a possibility that they may look into the 7/8” plugs if these do well, and I would think demand would drive their decision.

I have had one of these pre-production plugs for about a week now. My testing has been limited to function only at this point, as I have only shot it into spots on my snow covered berm from my garage. My Leupold Ultimate Slam scope has only been eye-ball bore sighted, but is very close.

My function testing was conducted with Federal 209A primers, 80 grains Blackhorn 209, and a T/C Cheap Shot. I had instant ignition every time. They have done testing with standard Winchester and Remington Kleanbore primers, 85 grains 777, and a 300 grain Hornady saboted bullet.

Although my testing has been limited at this time, I will be doing some accuracy testing as soon as time and weather permits. It was minus 8 F here last night, and the wind chill has been unbearable for shooting lately.
 
I have made a couple suggestions, and both were incorporated into the production plug. One was clean up some tooling marks that were machined into the top of the plug while cutting the hex head, the other was a simple o-ring option in the bottom of the pocket. This shows me they are willing to work with us, and aim to please. These breech plugs were machined on a CNC Lathe, and they have made a limited run at this time, so if you want one of these, you might not want to drag your feet to long. They have advised me that the price will be $28.50 shipped in the U.S., I think that is very reasonable considering they had to program the CNC. My Hubbard plug cost $35, and this one is far better and easier to clean being one piece IMO.

With my particular rifle, I fired a Federal 209A, one of if not the hottest 209's out there, it left some soot on the standing breech. First I was trying to figure out a shim, but I think I found the perfect alternative. I did this same exact thing with my Hubbard plug. I inserted an o-ring into the bottom of the primer pocket, this filled the gap in front of the primer, gave me about .015" crushable length between the primer rim and the plug, and allowed me to headspace off the front of the primer. This acts as a gasket and keeps the primer fouling where it should be, and blowback was almost non-existant.


These are all Federal 209A primers, need the hottest for Blackhorn 209. These were fired with no powder to check for seal. Left, Unfired; Middle, Fired with my o-ring mod (approximate measurements, O.D. .285", I.D. .145", Thickness .070"); right, headspacing off the rim (have a slight couple thousandths gap when locked up tight). The o-ring is a compression fit, but works better that way and stays put until you want to remove it for cleaning.




I also did a little unscientific test to check the primer pressure (no powder) going through the barrel with and without the o-ring. The muzzle was approximately 12" from the snow when fired. The one on the left is with the o-ring, the one on the right without.



This is a comparison of the standard NEF plug with primer carrier and the carrierles 209 plug.


This is the first 3 Federal 209A primers after my function test using the o-ring modification with 80 grains BH209 and the T/C Cheap Shot. Notice how clean they are, just a hint of smoke/soot on the standing breech. Two of the primer needed a little coaxing to remove, the other came out with fingers. I have since polished the inside of the primer pocket to make it a little smoother, this should help in that matter.


O-Ring installed.


This is a pic of plug and Federal 209A primer, no o-ring.


This is a pic of plug and Federal 209A primer with o-ring installed. Notice the slight gap, giving a crushable few thousandths, to help adjust for any variances in tolerances.


Please note, that this plug can be used with or without the o-ring.


The Carrierless 209 Breech Plug for NEF Sidekick Contact information: Call 1-800-638-7986, ask for Nick, or e-mail sales@metricsunlimited.com . Monday-Friday, open until 5:00 PM, EST. Not sure when they open, but I’m sure 9:00 AM, EST would be a safe bet.
U.S.A.F. Veteran
NRA Life Member

Offline Nick Allen

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • Gender: Male
Thanks Rob, I know, I sure like mine ;) The o-ring works just fantastic!



Nick :)

Offline Hammerspur

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
  • Gender: Male
Busta,
   Thanks VERY much for all the work and information! 

Your o-ring fitment seems to do the trick nicely... clean and with the bbl. slots for the primer carriers closed up
a truly closed breech results, Great!

O-ring placement in a Hubbard's primer carrier (nipple) should work also I would think. Have to try it.

Steve
Quote
Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline MikeC

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Busta,

Thanks for your part in this! Everyone please buy these up so they make a run of 7/8th inch plugs. I will call in the morning to see if they are taking names for a 7/8 inch version.

Offline bubba

  • Trade Count: (62)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1898
  • Gender: Male
nice job busta. Makes me wish I had a 5/8 breech plug. I plan to call about possibly a 7/8 also.  I did a search and found the company online and sent them an email asking them to consider the 7/8 as I would order two in a heartbeat.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
I wish I'd known these were coming before I sold my Sidekick.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Busta

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2586
  • Gender: Male
Mike and Bubba, you both will have to get in line right behind me for them 7/8" plugs. ;D

The 7/8" plug would be far easier to produce from a machining standpoint. Not as much material to remove, and they are a little shorter, so less material and machining to make the bigger plug. Sounds like a win for them and a win for us.

Notice, the 7/8" plug and the 5/8" plug would both start with the same size stock. WAY less machining on the 7/8" plug, the collar is not really neccessary as my .25 ACP plug doesn't have one. See pics below.






See the .25 ACP plug for comparison.



The whole gang.



I really think they would sell just as many, maybe more of the 7/8" plugs. All the 2001-2004 Huntsmans, and 2004 Sidekicks all had 7/8" plugs. That is a lot of 7/8" plugs. I'll do what I can to help you guys out. ;)
U.S.A.F. Veteran
NRA Life Member

Offline MI.sabot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Quote
These are all Federal 209A primers, need the hottest for Blackhorn 209. These were fired with no powder to check for seal. Left, Unfired; Middle, Fired with my o-ring mod (approximate measurements, O.D. .285", I.D. .145", Thickness .070"); right, headspacing off the rim (have a slight couple thousandths gap when locked up tight). The o-ring is a compression fit, but works better that way and stays put until you want to remove it for cleaning.



Busta:

I'm confused as to what it is that I'm looking at in regards to what appears to be a blackened primer pictured to the far right.
H&R Ultra Slug Hunter (12 ga.)
NEF SS Sidekick Muzzleloader (50 cal.)
Remington 870 Express (12 ga.)
Stevens 311-H SxS (20 ga.)
CZ 452 American (22lr)

Offline Doug B.

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Still A Kid At Heart - 1971 Honda CT70H
Here is an email address you may want to file away for future reference:

nick@metricsunlimited.com

Nick is the guy that developed the 5/8" breachplug and he also told me that he now has a waiting list for those interested in the 7/8" version. He assured me that the 7/8" version would go into production as soon as they see sales of the 5/8" pick up. I'm pretty pumped!

Thanks Busta for all the work that you have put into this!
"Be A Good Listener. Your Ears Will Never Get You In Trouble"

Cadott/Chippewa Falls, WI

Offline Busta

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2586
  • Gender: Male

Busta:

I'm confused as to what it is that I'm looking at in regards to what appears to be a blackened primer pictured to the far right.


MI.sabot,

Just showing the difference of with and without the o-ring in my rifle. I want as tight of a seal as I can get for Blackhorn 209.
U.S.A.F. Veteran
NRA Life Member

Offline carbineman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1322
Busta, Thanks for the info. I would like a 7/8" breechplug. (Sent an email to metrics unlimited to keep me inline for one)

Offline KBY

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Busta, thanks for this post.
I am not big gun guy, but do love extending my gun season w/ my muzzleloader. So this may seem to be a dumb question. Wouldn't the O-ring heat and melt, gum up the inside of the breechplug after a few shots at the range.

Offline Busta

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2586
  • Gender: Male
Guys,

Don't thank me, thank them for stepping up to the plate and giving us what we all have wanted for several years. This is a labor of love for me, I just love shooting that old 2003 Stainless Steel Huntsman and have been waiting 6 years for a carrierless 209 breech plug. If you want to shoot Blackhorn 209 reliably, this type of plug is a must have. And I must have a few more, hopefully in 7/8". ;)

If you think about it, this plug shipped to your door is less than the MSRP of two 10 packs of those primer carriers. How long do you think Remington will continue to make the primer carreirs available for a couple discontinued rifles? I seriously doubt for very long, even though their profit for a few cents worth of plastic must be huge. I'll never use those things again.

KBY,

I'm not really sure how long they will last as I haven't wore/shot one out yet. I have been using one in my Hubbard plug since this last fall. I used it for sighting in my Hunting load on my Huntsman and during the season. This one seems to be pretty tough, but I am sure there are good ones and bad ones depending on the manufacturer and the quality of the material. These were from an auto parts store, can't remember the brand name. I really don't think you could load and shoot fast enough to melt one, but I have not shot in the hot days of summer, only fall and winter. This one still looks like it did when I first installed it. They use o-rings on the magazine tubes for some gas operated shotguns, just for an example. I'll let you know if and when I ever wear one out. ;)
U.S.A.F. Veteran
NRA Life Member

Offline petemi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (73)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7386
  • Gender: Male
Busta, Thanks a million!  What size is that O ring?  Also, how many shots do you figure it wil handle?

Update:  Just called and ordered a 5/8.  It's shipping today and coming with 2 O rings.  And yes, dummy read better and found the size. 

I'll have about 60 primer carriers to sell!!!

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,191112.msg1098959491.html#msg1098959491

Offline ELMO

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 149
  I put my name down for the 7/8" plug and got the impression they will be made. This is a great idea that is starting to happen and I want try some of the blackhorn 209 out of my huntsmans. This is just great.... ;)

Offline Nick Allen

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • Gender: Male
We ordered the material for the larger ones today. I hope to see some finished by the end of this month or the beg. of next.

Nick :)

Offline petemi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (73)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7386
  • Gender: Male
A lot of folks here will love you for that, Nick.  Thank Bob again for me for his friendly help today.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,191112.msg1098959491.html#msg1098959491

Offline jcal73

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Gender: Male
  • Huntin & Jeepin in AL
    • My Jeep
I read about this this morning and sent the email and before 10 AM I had one on order and can't wait to get it. Thanks! ;D
Jeff

Offline bubba

  • Trade Count: (62)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1898
  • Gender: Male
sounds great Nick. Put me down for two 7/8 plugs. And busta how do you get all the cool stuff first?  lol
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline kody

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
   I just talked to the owner of Metrics Unlimited and he said the material for the 7/8"plug will be on hand next week and they will start buildind them then!  Question for BUSTA; How does the best 209 primer compare with any of the large rifle or large pistol primers for ignition performance AND excess power that can cause flyers? The 7/8" plugs could easily be chambered for a .375 cal. hull that would allow a variety of primers and handle better in cold weather. Extractors could be utilized too.    Ken

Offline carbineman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1322
We ordered the material for the larger ones today. I hope to see some finished by the end of this month or the beg. of next.

Nick :)

Nick Allen,  Pardon me as I'm a little slow to catch on. I now see that you are the guy I emailed this morning with my order to have my 7/8" breechplug made. Thanks to all who have made this possible..........carbineman

Offline bubba

  • Trade Count: (62)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1898
  • Gender: Male
man I am looking forward to this
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Busta

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2586
  • Gender: Male
And busta how do you get all the cool stuff first?  lol

It's called 6 years of begging. ;D


   I just talked to the owner of Metrics Unlimited and he said the material for the 7/8"plug will be on hand next week and they will start buildind them then!  Question for BUSTA; How does the best 209 primer compare with any of the large rifle or large pistol primers for ignition performance AND excess power that can cause flyers? The 7/8" plugs could easily be chambered for a .375 cal. hull that would allow a variety of primers and handle better in cold weather. Extractors could be utilized too.    Ken

Not really sure first hand. I have some Large Rifle Magnum Primer and 209 breech plug designs in my head, but I have never put them to paper. Ultimate Firearms has an awesome design that is patented, so I would imagine a guy would have to tread lightly with a similar design. I just don't know where the boundaries would be. I will get into the accuracy part of this test as soon as the weather stabilizes some. How are you going to use an extractor in the NEF design? Without a lot of machining?

U.S.A.F. Veteran
NRA Life Member

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
I have always been concerned about the deletrious effects of the power of a 209 primer on accuracy in a ML. I did however just recently get my first Huntsman barrel. I am hoping the order one of these carrierless 5/8" breechplugs this week when the following questions are answered. How will they work with loose Pyrodex or loose Triple 7 (accuracy and reliability wise)? Will they work with pellets as well? Thanks for everything to all involved....<><...:)

and hopefully to the answers to these questions as well.......
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Busta

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2586
  • Gender: Male
Well, I got out this afternoon for some more function testing, and while I was at it figured I'd shoot some paper. I must say, this breech plug is awesome with the o-ring installed. I shot 17 Blackhorn 209 loads out of it today with 6 different primers, most of those primers are not recommended for Blackhorn 209. ALL primers worked flawlessly, absolutely no hang-fires, no misfires, not even a hiccup. ALL primers were easily removed by just finger and thumb, ALL were as clean as new with no blowback getting past the o-ring. As a matter of fact the seal was so good the only smoke I got on the standing breech leaked out between the actual primer and the battery cup of Winchester W209 primers when shooting 120 grain loads of Blackhorn 209.

I had only shot this H&R Sidekick for function testing with Federal 209A primers prior to the short range session today. This is a new rifle, and I only plan to shoot Blackhorn 209 out of it. I needed to make sure my scope was on paper so I shot an old target at 50, It was only a couple inches to the left. I had eye-ball bore sighted it prior to shooting, so it was close enough to go out to 100. I used the old Remington 209-4 (410 primers) for both of these shots to get on paper, and both charges went off just like a Federal 209A would have. The shot at 100 was 3"-4" to the left of the bull, and almost 1" low. I made an adjustment to the right and up to hopefully be 2" high and on center. I was ready to start testing primers and checking for accuracy.




The first group was just some T/C Cheapshot 240 grain bullets with 80 gr BH209, ignited by a Winchester Triple Se7en Primer. All loads fired flawlessly, and ended up with a 1.45" group, I was happy with that and figured that this H&R Sidekick was going to shoot just like my NEF Huntsman does.



The second group was Hornady .430" 300 grain HP/XTP in the green Harvester Crush Rib Sabot with 90 grains BH209, ignited by Winchester WML209 Muzzleloading Primer (tan box). All loads fired flawlessly, the first two were touching, the third left the group and ended up at 1.33".




The third group was Speer's .429" 270 grain Gold Dot's in the green Knight High Pressure Sabot with 90 grains BH209, ignited by the standard CCI 209 Primers. All loads fired flawlessly, had some horizontal stringing, but ended up with a 1.75" group.



At this point my fingers wer starting to get numb, so I figured I better get a bullet that I can crank up. I picked the T/C 200 grain shockwave in the supplied sabot over 120 grains BH209, ignited by the standard Winchester W209 Primer. All loads fired flawlessly, the first two were touching about 2-1/2" above the bull, pulled the third a hair right, but it was still good enough for my only MOA group of the day at .758". I will be following up with that load again next time. The W209 primers leaked some soot smoke between the actual primer and the battery cup.



After that last group, I had a grin you couldn't wipe off with a Mack Truck. I deceided to shoot the Hornady 350 grain FPB over 80 grains BH209, ignited by Remington Kleanbore Muzzleloading Primers. All loads fired flawlessly, the first two were nearly touching tearing one hole, with the third ending up about an inch to the right for a group that measured 1.20".




The inside of the breech was so clean I couldn't hardly believe it, after 17 shots the breech plug looked as good as it did before I started shooting. The standing breech had a small smoke ring around the firing pin, notice the size, all of this came out between the primer and the battery cup, none leaked past the o-ring as evidenced by how clean the primers were. You would get more soot on the standing breech by just firing a primer with no powder out of the orange primer carriers than I ended up with after firing 17 hunting loads out of this breech plug with o-ring installed.



Here is another picture of the breech plug after I was done shooting. ;D


To say I am happy with this breech plug is an understatement, it has such a short path to the powder, the o-ring seals it from blowback, and I really think you could use ANY 209 primer. I know it was only in the low 30's today, but had to be in the 20's with the wind chill. We all have this pre-conceived notion of what will work and what won't, but let me tell you this plug worked perfectly with every primer that shouldn't work. There is hardly any crud, the flash hole is still wide open. I think all of that crud that builds up in those long flame channels of our Knight, T/C, and CVA plugs goes through the .040" flash hole directly into the powder charge. And good riddance as far as I'm concerned. ;)
U.S.A.F. Veteran
NRA Life Member

Offline jjvw

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Gender: Male
Glad to hear about the 7/8 size. I emailed to be on the list before I read the rest of this post.
Nice to know somebody is giving Michigan workers something to do.
I tried drilling out the standard breech plugs and using 209M with the holders . It was better but still messy.
I have been a lost child most of my life. 
Since being born in a log cabin that I built with my own hands, it has been an uphill struggle all the way.  Being so devastatingly handsome, intelligent,  rich-beyond-belief, and humble have all worked together to shape me and my destinies.

Offline ELMO

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 149
  Busta, just wanted to say what a great informative post. Thanks for all your time and effort.... 

Offline Nick Allen

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • Gender: Male
Sweet write up Busta ;D I was really hoping things would turn out for you like they did for me. I must say, that is some darn good shooting there. That sure was some nice weather over the weekend eh. I just received the 7/8" plug in the mail. Hopefully by the months end I will be able to send you one for testing.

Thanks
Nick

Offline kody

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
  Congratulations BUSTA :Once again you've shown us how, and what will work! Would there be any value in using one combination of powder weight and bullet type/weight in that test? That was an excellant demonstration of power loss, with the snowbank shots. I will be drilling and tapping an NEF 7/8" plug to take a 5/8" Traditions plug. It has been chambered to take a .375" dia. X .65" L. cartridge case that will allow similar tests of power and effective ignition of a variety of primers. With such a setup ,primers can be chosen for the powder used and the performance obtained with varying loads. The headspacing can be adjusted too. This setup should not infringe on Ultimate Firearms patent as it uses a 2 piece unit, has  headspace adjustment, is made from components separately manufacturered and assembled by the user. I'm not at all sure about the extraction capability, I'm just repeating something that one of the forum users mentioned in a PM. But it's a thought isn't it ? Oh and one other thing I 've Been meaning to ask for a long time,what do you do to get such good photos in your posts?  Thanks again for leading the way.    Ken

Offline lefty41

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 168
  • Gender: Male
Busta, you have convinced me! Must have Nick's 209 breech plug. Just emailed him about a 5/8". Of course I made a mistake in the email and called him Rick instead of Nick. Hope he won't mind too much.
Jerry Miller (lefty41)
"In God we trust"