Casting with Bismuth to make 'Lead free cast bullets'

[paulschweik]

Hi Vernal,

I live in California, which recently banned the use of bullets with any lead in them.  This ban covers a large area, about half the state.  Pure copper bullets (Barnes, etc) are legal.

I like to hunt with cast bullets and use them in a 45 cal rifle, 357, 44 and 45 cal revolvers and in a 58 cal patched roundball muzzleloader.  I would like your advice on the feasability of casting bullets from bismuth (I would use a bismuth/tin alloy) for these guns.  The bismuth is non-toxic, approved for shotshells.  It is acutally a little denser than lead, almost the same, so bullet weight will be very similar to lead. 

The bismuth is too expensive to use for general shooting, but I can still do that with lead, and just cast a few bismuth bullets for hunting.  Do you think this will work?

Thanks, Paul

[COR]

How would you convince the Game Warden it was bismuth?  Might still ruin a day of hunting and end you up in court.  I do like the way you think and am interested in Verals reply...

You could also head east. 

[Dixie Dude]

Bismith turns pink when it oxidizes.  That would be the clincher.  (Pepto Bismal uses bismith in its formula).  Lead turns white.  Problem with bismith is it oxidizes too fast sometimes.  I know someone who used bismith shotgun shells and they clumped the shot together when it corroded inside the shell.  Must use tin in the alloy to keep this down. 

[Veral]

  I have no clue about bismuth or how it would perform.  I have heard that the shot is very hard, which may be a problem if what I heard is correct, or it may shatter on impact at some unknown impact speed.  So, if you use it, extensive experimentation will be in order.

  My choice would be to purchase a good sized lot of no lead plumbing solder and cast with it, straight.  It is quite hard, casts like a dream, and is very affordable for a few hunting bullets.  Carry your receipt with you in case one of the Nazi gun confiscation law enforcers gets you by the collar.  I think it would back them down quite effectively as anilization isn't very expensive, and would really push your issue up their nose after presenting them with your receipt and stating that your alloy has no lead.  In handgun bullets you will probably have a little problem getting full power from magnum revovlers, and bullets may expand a little, but they will not shatter, and penetration on any CA game will be excellent.  In rifle loads, you'll easily get 2400 fps velocity if you use LBT bullet lube, and I seriously doubt that it would be possible to find a better or more reliable alloy so far as expansion and weight retention.  Bullet cost will be around fifty cents each for 250 gr at the last price I paid.  Expensive but very affordable to beat a dirty law.

  Dirty law.  To my knowledge CA has some of the most highly mineralized soil in the world.  I know for a fact this is true of a vast area around death valley.  If one were to have some of that soil analized he would probably find at least enough lead to make a box of ammo from every ton of dirt.  I know of soil in western AZ, (Quartsite, Wickenburg area) and the same soil type goes continues all the way up to the Boise Valley in Idaho, where aluminum analizes as high as 400 pounds per ton, gold at a half oz, silver very high, and where there is silver there is lead, everywhere on earth.   

[R J Talley]

The lead ban came in as a measure to protect the Condor. The pseudo-science that whelped this bastard law  (no real proven scientific study was ever presented) was that Condors eat lead ridden gut piles and then die. Considering what we spend to save these vultures the lead ban was seen as a good deal by the tree-huggers. The DFG was supposed to give hunters vouchers for state-funded rebates on non-lead ammo to help offset the extra cost. (a non-lead box of 30-30 rounds at WalMart runs over $45) Well, funds for the rebates were never approved by the state assembly so that never happened. Big surprise!  Now they are moving to make the ban statewide and to include bird shot. previously, 22 ammo was boot-strapped into the earlier bill in spite of the fact that the DFG said it was not needed and promised that it would not happen.   What we have found in retrospect, is that the lead ammo ban was never really about the Condors but was in fact, a back door grab at gun ownership. If one could not ban guns, then just ban the ammo. So far it's working. The sale of hunting licenses are down and fewer hunters are taking to the field.  Tis a sad state of affairs here in the Peoples Rebublik of Kalipornia.

[Veral]

  Thank you Reece.   Tree huggers is just a term for a few ignorant people who are under the spell of the real culprits, who are those trying to put a one world government, or NWO in place.  Their rapid progress is because millions of $$$ are channeled into all the politicians pockets in the form of bribes of various sorts, and the fact that our mainline media is owned by them, lock stock and barrel, and people who call themselves  Americans are willing to broadcast their lies and coverups.
  I rarely watch or listen to their news, and get angry if I do, because I have learned so much about the fraud against this ignorant nation.  My greatest learning was of coarse the 5 years of prison I got in their attempt to put LBT under.

  Free people cannot organize against them, and for the most part we have no clue who is actually the orchistrators of the war against our freedom, and finances.  I believe most of the nations gun owners are somewhat, or widely awake to these facts and are buying like mad to prepare for the unknown future.  I'm proud of us for that, but only God can direct us as to when to get them out and start using them.

[ShadowMover]

Bismuth is only twice as abundant as gold, and less abundant than silver. It isn't found in any major ores, but is mostly a by product of refining other metals, such as lead or tungsten.  It seems like a waste to throw away such a scarce material. I guess it will stop being used as shot and bullets when the price gets too high. As somebody else mentioned, Tin lead free solder would be cheaper and better.

[paulschweik]

Thanks for all the replies.  The lead free solder (tin with a few percent silver, usually) is a good idea.  I'll give it a try.

Yeah, California is a very screwed up state politically.  And we are paying the price for it now, with the highest state government debt and lowest credit rating of any state in the union.  There is now a net exodus of legal citizens out of the state, as businesses move elsewhere to operate in better environments.  The only thing keeping the California population from shrinking is the influx of illegals from down south.

Cheers, Paul

[dukkillr]

Interesting discussion.  I have a related question: If lead-free solder is the best alternative to lead in centerfire projectiles why are shotgun shells made of bismuth?  More specifically, why have I never heard of lead-free solder shotgun shells for non-toxic waterfowl areas?

[Veral]

  You expect ME to answer this?
   It is an interesting question though, and I suspect 'too easy' might be the answer.

[ShadowMover]

Interesting discussion.  I have a related question: If lead-free solder is the best alternative to lead in centerfire projectiles why are shotgun shells made of bismuth?  More specifically, why have I never heard of lead-free solder shotgun shells for non-toxic waterfowl areas?

The main reason is that Bismuth has a density of 9.78, while Tin has a density of 7.36 Iron has a density of 7.87. Iron or steel is a lot cheaper and somewhat heavier than Tin, while Bismuth is a lot heavier. Tin shot would work, but it would be bulkier and wouldn't go as far.  Another problem with really pure tin is it can convert itself to a gray powder when kept below freezing. This isn't always a fast transformation, and other metals mixed with it slow down the process, but it can happen, and most manufactured tin solders probably have something alloyed in them to stop it. I hope, otherwise there are going to be a lot of unhappy homeowners.  It sure would be a bad hunting day if those tin shot shells turned to a gray dust after sitting in your cold truck overnight.

The latest high density shot is made of Tungsten,with a density of 18. I guess it can scratch a barrel, but boy is it dense stuff. It is more than 50% heavier than Lead, which has a density of 11.34. So if you want to make an impact with a shot shell , this is the stuff that will hit your target and your wallet hard. It doesn't melt anywhere near normal temperatures, so I don't know how they make the shot.

[Veral]

I'm glad you came out of the shadows with your answers, ShadowMover!

  The tin turning to powder situation is one I've never heard of, as it was used for many years to coat 'tin cans' for all kinds of foods.  That is steel cans with a tin coating inside.  It is still used for pineapple, I believe, as none of the currently used plastic coatings will hold up as well against the acids.  The plumbers solder I recommended has silver and antimony in small amounts, which apparently cures this problem as joints in our copper water pipes, which I soldered with it 20 years ago show only slight corrosion where I didn't wipe the flux off clean enough.

  TIG welders.  The term means Tungsten Inert Gas, use tungsten for the electrode.  Pure tungsten is used for welding aluminum, as it melts into a ball at the end, which better breaks up the necessary AC current.  For welding stainless steel and other exotics, the tungsten has something else alloyed in, which I've long since forgotten.  It doesn't melt even under the heat of direct current inside an inert gas shield!  The melt point is HIGH.  The stuff is also brittle as glass, and "harder than nails", to use an old machinest joke cliche.  If the tungston balls were to rub the barrel they would cut grooves, probably deeper than ball bearings do.

  All that aside, my no lead solder recommendation is still a good option for no lead states, as it is certified lead free, and casts beautifully at normal lead alloy temperatures.  Best of all if taken to court for hunting with such bullets we can argue that we are using the same protection for condors as the feds mandate for US citizen water pipes.  (Never mind that MANY cities which were plumbed with lead water mains many years ago, still have the lead mains, with officials remaining silent on the matter, and citizens no sicker than the newer cities plumbed with plastic and whatever else is the cheapest piping that can be bought.)

[Drilling Man]

  I have several coffee can sized containers of PURE tin beads...  I've had them over 25 years, and several containers have been in below zero weather for days and even weeks at a time.  Some have seen many -40F nights, and all of the tin beads still look like the day i got them.  None of them have turned to dust, so if that actually does happen, it doesn't happen easily...

  DM

[ShadowMover]

  I have several coffee can sized containers of PURE tin beads...  I've had them over 25 years, and several containers have been in below zero weather for days and even weeks at a time.  Some have seen many -40F nights, and all of the tin beads still look like the day i got them.  None of them have turned to dust, so if that actually does happen, it doesn't happen easily...

  DM

I see that the 'tin disease' or 'tin pest' has some doubters. Tin has different allotropic forms.  Many elements have a different look, depending on how they were made or treated. Carbon for example can be a diamond or graphite, both are nearly pure carbon. Phosphorus can be red or white. You've seen the red on the strike portion of a matchbook; although they are pretty skimpy with it now-a-days because of the war on drugs. White phosphorus is used in that other war. It's the same stuff.  I don't doubt your tin didn't turn to dust, but it does happen. I'm not sure what exactly starts the process, but as the link says, once it starts it goes even faster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_disease

[Veral]

  I'm going to venture a thought or two about the tin balls not degrading with age. -  Every lead mine on earth has silver in the lead, and, but refining the silver out is too expensive so most commercial 'pure lead' has a slight silver 'contamination'.  Labratory pure lead would be .9999 pure. 

  Having no experiance with tin turning to dust, or ever even having any tin that was claimed to be pure, and this being the first I've heard of pure tin turning to dust, I'm going to guess that your tin balls may have a trace of silver or other exotic metal at too low a percentage to disqualify it as pure tin. 

  I expect it is really a moot point for most casters, as it has been for me.

[243winxb]

As a general rule, Bismuth alloys of approximately 50 percent Bismuth exhibit little change of volume during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during solidification.

http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htmFirst the diameter of the finished bullet would be hard to control, it keeps expanding with some alloys  for days. 2nd problem would be its low melting point depend on the alloy mix. Just my guess on the subject. The owner of this business said in email, bismuth is not for casting bullets when ask by another forum member. But then they sell casting alloy also. You should do your own testing. It was priced right as scrap as i remember.

[Veral]

  An interesting post.  If I remember correctly, bismuth is the super low melt point primary metal used to make cerro chamber casting metals!  Melt temp somewhere around 200 deg F.  -  Bismuth would give SERIOUS 'bismuthing' of the barrel, far worse than the leading from much higher melt point lead alloys.

[45454]

Thanks for all the replies.  The lead free solder (tin with a few percent silver, usually) is a good idea.  I'll give it a try.

Yeah, California is a very screwed up state politically.  And we are paying the price for it now, with the highest state government debt and lowest credit rating of any state in the union.  There is now a net exodus of legal citizens out of the state, as businesses move elsewhere to operate in better environments.  The only thing keeping the California population from shrinking is the influx of illegals from down south.

Cheers, Paul

Hello Paul,
Barnes Bullets were the chief pusher of "no lead" bullets.
Barnes said that they can make the bullets cheaper than lead......when loaded ammo,and bullets as components really skyrocketed in price.
So much for the "......cheaper than lead.....".
2 or 3 years ago,I bought several 1lb spools of lead free silver solder.
When I bought those spools,they were running about $11.00 per spool.
I did try and did make 22 high content silver bullets.(insert werewolf comments  )
[Here's what happened.
In my Lee 255gr 45 mold,the bullets were difficult to remove from the mold.
And,the 255gr with this low lead mix,weighed around 240gr.]
This proposition would make for some quite expensive bullets.
I made for Frank V,a member here, 10 for him,and 10 for his wife.With 1 each for them to show and tell.
Since he does shoot a 45 Colt,so does his wife.
They lived not far from where we live.Yes,we've shot together.
I was going to deliver them to Montana.An accident just days before we were to leave,took care of that.
It will take a miracle for us to ever visit there.
Yes, those no lead bullets are doable,but it sure takes the patience of a saint to produce any quantity.
I might add,the quality was there.

[Veral]

  Paul,
  I is legal to ship your bullets by UPS, and I believe even by mail.  Your postmaster will tell you yes or no if you ask.  There are no special requirements.
  I do hope the miricle happens to let you travel again though.  It would be a lot more fun for all concerned.

[Terbltim]

Interesting discussion.  I have a related question: If lead-free solder is the best alternative to lead in centerfire projectiles why are shotgun shells made of bismuth?  More specifically, why have I never heard of lead-free solder shotgun shells for non-toxic waterfowl areas?

Here is my attempt at answering this question. I gave lead-free solder a serious look a year or two ago and learned a couple of interesting things but the answer, (my scientific-wild-ass-guess,) is that it is a simple matter of cost. The better brands of lead-free solder currently sell at $20/lb (retail) at Lowe's and Home Depot. That's the cheapest price you'll find anywhere.
So, shotgun ammo makers simply went with the cheapest product that covers all the requirements.
The lower grades of lead-free solder are somewhat cheaper but its all expensive when compared to bismuth. My best guess is that its a matter of production cost.

[Cat Whisperer]

There are two common lead-free solders (likely more, but two I've encountered commonly).

One, for plumbing, is 95% tin adn 5% something else, usually antimony.
Another, for electronic soldering is 96.5% tin, 3% silver and 0.5% copper.  Percentages vary by brand.

The electronic solder casts beautifully in stone-cold moulds, but takes a long time to solidify if the mould is hot. 

As mentioned, it is much less dense than lead.

Been playing with it, haven't concluded anything about accuracy or velocity.

[leadman]

Interesting thread.
Bullets are good to go in the USPS mail. The Priority Flat rate boxes work real well and are fairly inexpensive for this use. #70 pound weight limit with prices starting at $4.95.

I have been thinking of casting lead free solder into bullets. Has any testing been done for accuracy, expansion, etc.?

I have 6 pounds of tin and 4 pounds of antimony so could mix my own lead free. In your opinion Veral, what ratios do you think would work the best?

[Veral]

    Be aware that my response was totally,  a fearce, vindictive, and vicisous redneck reply, designed to counter the monsters who are trying to take our freedom!  Read that again, because I AIN"T bashful about saying it, to anyone!
    The only no lead solder I've used is what I've bought, and I've never used it for bullets.  I just know it would work well, and that expansion would be excellent with very high weight retention, based on very extensive testing with various tin lead mixes.  Keep the antimony fairly low, say not over 3% for best weight retention on expanding rifle bullets.  For revolver bullets, whatever makes them hardest, but still stay under 5% antimony to avoid brittleness.

[dakotashooter2]

I've used the no lead solder to cast tiny jigs for fishing in no lead areas. While casting small items can sometimes be a challenge with lead I had no problems at all with the lead free solder.

Bismuth will never be an economical choice for bullets. I looked into buying it for reloading shotshells and found little savings over those commercially loaded.   If I recall 1 1/4 oz was still gonna cost $2.50 just for the shot. You'd probably be looking at somewhere around a buck apiece for 150 gr HOME CAST bismuth bullet.  Actually the company that produced bismuth shells shut down for a while, I understand and the company I had looked at buying a bismuth/tin alloy from was having supply trouble for a while.