What Color Should the Big French Mortar Bed be?

[seacoastartillery]

     Vite!  Vite!  We are running out of time guys.  We need to paint the bed in one week.  What color should it be?  Upon what historical evidence did you base your suggestion?  Thanks, all serious suggestions will be considered carefully.    Remember please, we are talking about a big French mortar in a national military campaign, The Siege of Antwerp, in 1832.

Thank You!

Mike and Tracy 

[Double D]

If I wake up in the middle of the night and can't sleep because it is so hot up here, I'll research it for you...can you wait? 

[Cat Whisperer]

Why, Blue, White and Red; of course!

[KABAR2]

Didn't from sometime in the 18th Century through the 19th Century the French go to a green/olive paint?

this is probably where the U.S. adopted it from with copying the Mtn Howitzer and Napoleon..........

[dan610324]

why not just use tar , turpentine and boiled linseed oil in equal proportions ??
that was the old time way to protect the wood

[Soot]

I would use an oil finish to show the wood.

[seacoastartillery]

     So far, we have found only a couple hours to look into this, but almost all internet sources agree with the authors of the Osprey Series book titles Napoleon's Guns in that up to the 1760s the wood on French artillery carriages, limbers and rolling stock was painted red and the iron hardware, black.  This changed to a light blue-grey with black ironwork at the time of the introduction of the Gribeauval system of artillery in 1765.  A change was made to a darker, olive-green in 1789 and lasted for at least 80 years until the Franco-Prussian War in 1870. The question now is:  What shade of Green was it?  Even descriptions of eyewitnesses to Army life or battles of that era are so subjective as to be almost worthless.  A scientific study of an actual painted artillery carriage would probably be best, but where would you find that?

     The issue of rapid fading of the old, yellow ochre, linseed oil  and charcoal paints would be difficult to overcome as well. Unless DD or somebady else finds a real gem, we will have to go with what one contemporary called "dark green with a little yellow mixed in" and we'll call it good enough.  At least it won't be totally wrong, like the light blue-grey that we first thought about probably due to seeing the representative French artillery at Yorktown, Virginia brought over in 1780, which belonged to General Rochambeau's French Expeditionary Corps in America from 1780 to 1782 and used to great effect against the British forces led by General Cornwallis.

     And so it goes.  Many thanks to those who gave some suggestions, particularly to KABAR2.  We will study any serious suggestion up to this coming Saturday when we will be painting.

Mike and Tracy



     

     

[Double D]

Paint was probably applied to the bed, but not the platform

[seacoastartillery]

     Thanks Douglas.  Now we have at least three people who feel that way about platforms sans paint, you, Mike and me.

Tracy

[cannonmn]

Purple.

[KABAR2]

  like the light blue-grey that we first thought about probably due to seeing the representative French artillery at Yorktown, Virginia brought over in 1780, which belonged to General Rochambeau's French Expeditionary Corps in America from 1780 to 1782 and used to great effect against the British forces led by General Cornwallis.

     And so it goes.  Many thanks to those who gave some suggestions, particularly to KABAR2.  We will study any serious suggestion up to this coming Saturday when we will be painting.

Mike and Tracy

Actually the French may have had a mix of French & Spanish guns, they had to be Re-supplied by their Spanish allies after they hit a storm on the way over,

It has been a long time (25 years) since I read about the campaign and this should be taken supposition on my part, but if they had to lighten ship in a storm artillery may have been sacrificed.


I will dig out my books and try to find reference to this, I guess what I am saying is what the National Park Service may research and "what was" may be very different.


You have one more on board as to the platform being left natural, more than likely it was built on site from available materials and not carted across the countryside.


Allen  <><



     

     
 

[GGaskill]

You have one more on board as to the platform being left natural, more than likely it was built on site from available materials and not carted across the countryside.

Do you know what was done with it after the siege?  Did it return to France or lie abandoned at the site?

[Double D]

Incredible!!! I normally scream for paint!!!!! Here I am on the side of natural wood.  I would bet the real ones were little more the linseed oil or creosoted timbers.

The ones at Petersberg National Battlefield under the Mortar weren't even treated, just raw wood.

[seacoastartillery]

You have one more on board as to the platform being left natural, more than likely it was built on site from available materials and not carted across the countryside.

Do you know what was done with it after the siege?  Did it return to France or lie abandoned at the site?

     Unfortunately I have not found an after-action report which includes the disposition of the very large and heavy mortar platform required for the monster.  I bet Allen is correct about it's construction too.  Most likely made there and left there.  Some interesting info on what they had to haul to the Citadel bombardment site is included here:

                 "The experiment having succeeded, it was resolved to bring the mortar into Antwerp, and preparations were made to place it in battery on the covered way of the bastion of the city, between the re-entering place of arms of Montebello and the Malines gate. Eight horses were required to draw the carriage on which it was placed, and eight others to draw the carriage containing the bed. The weight of the empty shells being nearly 1,000 lbs. it is easy to calculate the number of these projectiles that could be moved in any ordinary ammunition wagon. The weight of the bed, which is of timber, is not given in the scale, but it may be taken as at somewhat more than the mortar itself, making altogether about 30,000lbs.; add to this 110 shells for 100 rounds at 1,000 lbs. each, and 110 barrels of 90 lbs. each, and it gives the enormous dead weight of 70 tons, exclusive of gins, triangle, chevalet, carriage, and sundries. The name of Monster-mortar seems to have been well selected, for it is scarcely possible to conceive a more ugly or unwieldy implement. With the exception of the mortar at Moscow, which has thirty-six inches in diameter at the mouth of the cylinder, and was, if ever used, employed for projecting masses of granite, the monster- mortar exceeds any other weapon of the kind hitherto known. The original conception is due to Colonel Paixhans ; it was executed under the direction of Baron Evain, and cast at the Belgian royal foundery at Liege."

Wish I had a more complete answer, George.

Tracy and Mike   

     

[KABAR2]

So have you found the right shade of olive/green? is it painted yet?

inquiring minds want to know!  The just nosy ones Too!

we need photos of the finished product!!! 

does this seem impatient? 

[subdjoe]

That sounds like the 1800s version of the 800mm railway guns.  Big, impressive, scary, and likely not as effective as was hoped. Or, not enough to justify the massive support needed.  With the railway guns - a whole battalion, or more, to serve ONE gun?  A major general commanding ONE gun? 

[KABAR2]

That sounds like the 1800s version of the 800mm railway guns.  Big, impressive, scary, and likely not as effective as was hoped. Or, not enough to justify the massive support needed.  With the railway guns - a whole battalion, or more, to serve ONE gun?  A major general commanding ONE gun? 

Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, by the looks of things just a couple of Major Generals will do 

I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot. 

[Double D]

I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot. 

Yes, some will be disappointed, those who cna't make it...

[seacoastartillery]

     Allen,  have a little faith.  But just like fine wine or beer, the ingredients have to be ripe, or in our case made, painted and assembled before they can be called complete.  Everything will be completed by July 25th, after all we must allow some time to test it.  Without a good thorough test, we could not possibly bring it to Montana and come Hell or Highwater it WILL be on the gunline in Cutbank.  

     Subdjoe,   In all of the cases I have read about, except for this one, you would be right.  The tremendous expenditure in material, time and personnel, never could be justified.  The Belgians and their French allies, 70,000 strong, basically lucked out with Col. Paixhans big mortar.  The very first shell fired against the Dutch forces in the Citadel of Antwerp landed within a few yards of the main powder magazine of that fortress.  When they saw volcanic eruption of many cubic meters of soil and the gaping hole and crater where the entryway to the powder magazine had been, they were afraid, very very afraid.  This, along with a very persistent fire from close-by breaching batteries, and resolute French infantry massed near the growing breaches, caused the Dutch Army to give up the Citadel after just a few days.  In France, this military adventure was called the Ten Days Campaign and it fits that rare nitch in the history of armed conflicts that Col. of Volunteers, Theodore Roosevelt, called, "A Splendid Little War".  

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

[Double D]

OH M&T don't test fire down there, bring it up here to test.  Should you break your trailer, it's better you break it up here.  Southpaw and I would get his tractor and haul your rig up to his place and fix it for you. You would need to leave thirty or forty pounds of powder so we could test and make sure the welds of the repair hold, then you could come back up and get ...next year.  The Montana boys have only your best interest in mind!!!! Yessir we sure do!!!

[subdjoe]

Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, by the looks of things just a couple of Major Generals will do 

I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot. 

 Now I'll hav eGilbert & Sullivan running through my head all day.
(walks off muttering: "I am the very model of a modern Major-General
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical)

[KABAR2]

Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, by the looks of things just a couple of Major Generals will do 

I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot. 

 Now I'll hav eGilbert & Sullivan running through my head all day.
(walks off muttering: "I am the very model of a modern Major-General
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical)

There are far worse things than having G&S run through your head..........

I'll not list them for fear of sending you on another bent.......

[Cat Whisperer]

...
Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, ...
 

But they will - it will also be at 1/6 scale!   

[seacoastartillery]

     Do the Montana boys really have our best interests at heart?  I am a pretty trusting person.  I always take a man's word for something until his actions prove it not to be worth much.  But there is something about this offer that, to use an old west Texas rancher's lingo, smells like you're downwind of a large feedlot.      We will test here and let those Montana boys test it under the big blue Montana sky as well.  Thanks for your vote of confidence, Allen, we sure do try.  Tim, you are correct; if we needed a platoon to help us man this thing, it would only be at 1/6th scale, or, more specifically 2/5th scale for this particular gun. 

     Hey!  Good news today; we found the perfect shade of green with just a hint of olive drab in it.  And it's only a tiny fraction of a point away from an interior paint called Paris Green.  Talk about a good omen, this has to be the right shade!  It's the closest shade to the paint depicted on the cover of Napoleonic Artillery in the Osprey Series of Military books, which meets all verbal criteria we have been able to find.  Not everyone will love it, but we are convinced that it is as close as we will find on a beer budget.  It's a bit more Forest or Alpine green than some folks will hope for and a little less Olive, but we were NOT looking to duplicate WWII O.D. Green or 1950s Mail Box green for this mortar.  It is also flat green rather than glossy or satin or semi-gloss.  Any military that used gloss paint for field equipment is not worth two pinches of sour owl s__t in our opinion.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[Double D]

     Do the Montana boys really have our best interests at heart?  I am a pretty trusting person.  I always take a man's word for something until his actions prove it not to be worth much.  But there is something about this offer that, to use an old west Texas rancher's lingo, smells like you're downwind of a large feedlot

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

Oh ye of little faith....

[Cannoneer]

M&T,
I know this is a day late, and a dollar short, because you've already chosen the paint shade you're going to be using, but I've got nothing that would change your minds anyway. A few years ago, and then again when you began this thread, I searched, but never found any valid documentation on how and/or when the U.S. Army Ordnance Dept. came to choose the OD green paint color for the Army's field artillery train. I agree with Allen, and yourselves that its very probable that the U.S. adopted this color from the French model, (it may even be that the OD color formula that we know, was the same as the original French paint) but it remains unproven as far as I know.
You probably know that a Lieutenant Daniel Tyler was sent to France to study the French artillery system in Jan. 1828, and he returned in 1829, bringing back a wealth of information and drawings that he presented to the Ordnance Department; but did he also bring the paint formula for the French shade of green?
These photos are of artillery pieces in the Hotel des Invalides/Musee de l'Armee in Paris, but as you've already said, they can't really be used to prove the original shade of green, because who knows when these coats of paint were applied, and what toll time, and the bleaching effects of the sun have had on the pigments used in the paint. In other words, this is basically an irrelevant post, but what the heck, its raining outside, and I had to occupy my time somehow. 
BTW, Im looking forward to seeing the assembled, and painted Mortar.

 12 pdr Napoleon


 Limbers, and Napoleon


 Rifled Mountain Gun

[carronader]

had to resize

[Cannoneer]

Carronader,

Yes, that is a good sized (I don't know if that should be called a bombard, or a mortar, I'll go with mortar) stone mortar, and it sure does have a green tint to it; where is the museum?

[Cat Whisperer]

I still think the colors of the French flag - blue white and red.

Maybe silk screened with an image of Charles de Gaul ....

[KABAR2]

I still think the colors of the French flag - blue white and red.

Maybe silk screened with an image of Charles de Gaul ....

And on the other side Inspector Clouseau......