1924 Inventory of Historic Ordnance at US Naval Academy, Annapolis MD

[cannonmn]

Here's a pretty impressive list.  It seems like the oldest guns are still there, but many of the Civil War items were given to (or taken by?) WWII scrap drives.  I think West Point was hit worse back then, I've heard they gave 150 tons of old ordnance to the WWII scrap drives.

I found this document in the National Archives, Washington, DC about 20 years ago and sent copies to the Naval Academy for their records at that time.  The photos aren't the clearest I've ever taken so I'm including the links in case you want a better view.





http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums46/RG74E113etcRG181b136a.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums46/RG74E113etcRG181b136.jpg

[seacoastartillery]

Here's a pretty impressive list.  It seems like the oldest guns are still there, but many of the Civil War items were given to (or taken by?) WWII scrap drives.  I think West Point was hit worse back then, I've heard they gave 150 tons of old ordnance to the WWII scrap drives.

      I noticed immediately that the 150 Pdr. Armstrong (8" Seacoast Rifle) was on the 1924 list.  This and the fact that an image of it in an Annapolis Naval Battery exists today is pretty good evidence that the Navy scooped it up from the southernmost fort guarding the North Carolina City of Wilmington after the Second Battle of Fort Fisher was over in January of 1865.  Located across the Cape Fear River from Fort Fisher was the smaller, but heavily armed masonry fort, Fort Caswell located near the delta of that large river.  Various accounts of the two Battles of Fort Fisher place the second 150 Pdr. Armstrong there and the Ft. Fisher Armstrong in Battery Purdie on the seaface wall of that fort.   Too bad the Navy's Museum Director didn't chain himself to that beautiful Armstrong and say forcefully,  "Not this one!!", when the WWII scrap drive collectors came to haul away all that 'old iron'.  Photo below.

Thanks for posting this list, John, a very significant find it is.

Tracy and Mike


We hope Boom J. doesn't get all twitterpated when he sees yet another dispart sight cover on that smooth-bore in front of the big 150 Pdr.  Armstrong!   Cannonmn,  could that last one in line possibly be a 15" Dahlgren pulled from a monitor?  It does not appear to have a cascable, something I had never noticed before.

[cannonmn]

Yes it could definitely be a 15 in. Dahlgren.  Rsn I know for sure those were at Annapolis PG is that I had a friend who lived near where the old range was.  One day he said "you like old guns, there's an old cannonball that's been in my backyard forever."  I looked and it was a half-buried 15-in. Navy cored shot, wt. 440 lbs. about.  He let me have it, and I "borrowed" a welding gas cart from a nearby construction site, and put the ball on the shelf.  One little issue, I could not push the handles down to get it off the ground.  He loaned me a few hundred lbs. of lead in ammo boxes I hung off the handles, and I was able to push the handles down and move it.  I pushed it up the hill across the Severn River bridge (I was in good shape back then,) into the basement of Bancroft Hall at USNA, and onto the elevator, up to 4th floor where I lived.  I got a few other guys to lift the seabag we rolled it onto and put it on my desk, where I was allowed to keep one paperweight.  I put it in a cutoff shell casing with a little piece of paper underneath so it qualified as a paperweight.  Too bad I wasn't able to take it with me when I graduated!

[GGaskill]

... wt. 440 lbs. ...

That must have been a pretty strong desk.

[cannonmn]

Desk-yes they were heavy steel things made for two people sitting opposite.  There was a steel combo safe built into the bottom of each side for us to keep our USN confidential publications in.  Very strong desk.

[Cannoneer]

We hope Boom J. doesn't get all twiterpated when he sees yet another dispart sight cover on that smoothbore in front of the big 150 Pdr.  Armstrong!   Cannonmn,  could that last one in line possibly be a 15" Dahlgren pulled from a monitor?  It does not appear to have a cascable, something I had never noticed before.

T & M,

When it rains it pours; when I wanted to show an example of a protective dispart sight cover, I couldn't find the photo of the Teaser's stern gun to save my soul, now here's a second photo of one in the same week. While I may not have gotten hyperexcited at seeing another sight cover, I did start to palpitate when I saw this photo (that I haven't seen before) which shows the huge Armstrong, 200?-pounder Parrott, and what Olmstead, Stark, and Tucker labeled as the XV-inch Bureau of Ordnance Long Cannon of 43,000 pounds.
I guess we'll have to call it a cascabel on the XV-inch Dahlgren, because I don't know of another word to describe it; the cascabels on these guns were short rounded affairs that were just large enough to accommodate the elevation screws. On the ironclad ships where these guns formed part of the battery, they were only ever mounted on wrought iron carriages that had their own braking systems, so the extended breeching jaws seen on Dahlgren's smaller guns were unnecessary. I think that its just the shading of the photograph that makes it hard to discern the cascabel, but you can plainly make out the upright elevation screw.

[seacoastartillery]

     Boom J.,   Since the only 15" Dahlgren Shell Guns in the world above ground, or more correctly, above water are in the land of the "Swedish cannon-maniac", I bet those are the Filipstad guns which guard John Ericsson's tomb.  Yep, that's a 150 pounder Parrott used by the Federal Navy to arm both Frigates AND a few Monitors.   

Mike and Tracy




"Small-bore" 150 Pdr. Parrott on right and a 15" Dahlgren on the left.  This is the same ship that had the odd shaped projectile dents on it's turret that we discussed a while back.




     Two 150 pdr. Parrott rifles were mounted on the Federal Ship Susquehanna during the war and the smaller, Federal Gunboat, Nipsic also had one mounted as a pivot gun.  As yet we have not found pics of these, although The Army's NHI in Carlisle, PA is supposed to have two images of the Nipsic Parrott.

[cannonmn]

Thanks for the info.  I went looking for the photo(s) and found that...as you probably already know///

Two other photographs have been published of USS Nipsic, both taken on board her during the Civil War. These are described below:


1: View of Nipsic's 150-pounder Parrott rifled pivot gun, trained out to port with its crew at stations. Photographed from the ship's forecastle, looking aft along the port side.


2: View looking forward along Nipsic's port side from her quarter deck, with a Dahlgren howitzer on a pivot mounting in the foreground. The ship's 150-pounder Parrott rifle is visible in the distance, as is the 30-pounder Parrot rifle on her forecastle.


Both of these photographs were printed in page 107 of "The Old Steam Navy, Volume I: Frigates, sloops and gunboats, 1815-1885", by Donald L. Canney (published by the U.S. Naval Institute, Annapolis, Maryland, 1990). They are credited to the U.S. Army Military History Institute, Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Mebbe I'll buy that book onna these days.

[Cannoneer]

Boom J.,   Since the only 15" Dahlgren Shell Guns in the world above ground, or more correctly, above water are in the land of the "Swedish cannon-maniac", I bet those are the Filipstad guns which guard John Ericsson's tomb.  Yep, that's a 150 pounder Parrott used by the Federal Navy to arm both Frigates AND a few Monitors.   

We can be grateful to John Ericsson for buying, and then gifting those two giants to the country of his birth, because if he hadn't, we would literally find ourselves in the unfortunate circumstance of having only a slim to nonexistant chance of ever viewing an original example of one of John Dahlgren's XV-inch smoothbores. There is one other Dahlgren 15-inch gun extant that I know of, and its location (believe it or not) is in Hong Kong at their Museum of Coastal Defence. The Hong Kong museum gives the history of this gun as being one of a pair of XV-inch Dahlgren cannons that formed the armament of the USS Catawba, a Canonicus class monitor that never saw action in the Civil War; this ironclad was sold to Peru in 1868.
Notice that the "cascabel" end is flat, unlike the two guns (and all the drawings of this type gun that I've seen) located at Filipstad, that have smoothly rounded ends.

USS Catawba

[cannonmn]

Regarding the flat cascabel, remember this discussion and the photos?

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,138697.0.html

[Cannoneer]

I do remember your fine scale model, and its clear that the modeller wasn't utelizing his imagination when he fashioned the pattern's cascabel. The carriage of this model is interesting, in that I'm ignorant of a real 'wrought iron Marsilly broadside carriage' being manufactured that was of a size large enough to accommodate the XV-inch Dahlgren. Do you know if carriages of this type were actually produced for a gun of this size? 

[cannonmn]

Do you know if carriages of this type were actually produced for a gun of this size? 

No, and I doubt they were made in any quantity unless we can document a non-monitor installation, which I've never heard of.

I'm pretty sure the model was made by Fort Pitt foundry or one of the other foundries which had contracts for the 15-inch BUORD gun tubes, maybe they custom-built the model in an effort to generate interest for 15-inch guns for ships other than monitors, who knows?  Notice that the model has dual firing lock "ears" like the smaller Dahlgrens, and unlike the 15-inch "monitor" gun in Hong Kong in the photos above.

[Cannoneer]

I think this photo of "One of the Union siege guns mounted in defense of Washington," might be of the same XV-inch Dahlgren that's shown in the photo of the "Battery at Annapolis" that Tracy & Mike posted; only this photo, with the 150-pounder Parrott (that is, if there's an anchor stamped on top of the tube) placed next to the 15-inch gun was taken from the vantage point of the opposite end of the pic they posted. Whatever the case may be, its interesting to note what type of "bed" the Federal troops were mounting these big Dahlgren guns on when they were used on land.

[cannonmn]

I think the caption of that pic. was somewhat imaginative.  Do you think it shows the Navy test range at Annapolis?  May even be postwar.  The carriage appears to be a 13-inch mortar bed, with special bushings added to adapt the 15-in. gun's trunnions to it..

[Cannoneer]

The date given with the caption I have in quotes for the first photo I posted was 1864, and the location on the second photo was given as "near Washington." Yeah, I think that's definitely a 13-inch seacoast mortar bed.

[Double D]

Mike on the left  and Tracy on the right!

[cannonmn]

The guy on left is moonlighting, doing "Caveman" commercials on TV.

[seacoastartillery]

     Don't think either of us was ever that skinny, DD!  If that really is us in a previous life, it doesn't look like I have the strength to force  one of those monster sponges all the way to the bottom of that bore and then get it out again!  No, I would have been pretty good at bore inspection, though, another trade I followed in my 'second' life.  To do it on the 15" Dahlgren Shell Gun's bore, you simply light a candle just insde the muzzle after the bore has been scrubbed well and wet sponged, and then crawl in to inspect for visible gouges or "weeping" from an internal crack.  The Federal Navy used 1st, 2nd and 3rd class 'Boys' for that job normally, but a skinny guy like me could have done OK too.

     Does indeed look like the same Annapolis Battery from a different angle, in fact that closest telegraph pole in the first photo is in just the right place to be in front of the two seacoast pieces in the 15" Dahlgren,  right cheek, pole and barrel pic.  Photo research is lots of fun, it is really satisfying to find a good one!    Thanks, Boom J.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

PS  We're on our way to see Fort Point again after being skunked for various reasons on 2 previous trips.

[cannonmn]

PS  We're on our way to see Fort Point again after being skunked for various reasons on 2 previous trips.

If you boys want to do us Spanish cannon researchers a big favor, you could check all the early Spanish tubes (1 at Fort Point and maybe 6 more at Presidio) and check closely for any roman numerals on the top of the basering.  I've found those on some of the old Spanish pieces at USNA and we're just beginning to wonder what they mean.  If I could get photos of any such numbers on the SF guns, we could perhaps rule or rule in certain things.  I'm trying to determine exactly when those numbers were applied and by whom, and of course what they mean.  I suspect they are a kind of registry of serial number applied at the foundry, but I just don't know for sure.

[seacoastartillery]

     I don't know if we will have time, John, to take any pics of any of those green guns.  We will be really busy getting plenty of photos of the C.W. guns under the Golden Gate Bridge, you know,the real interesting ones with transitional 1880s carriages and all.  Then there is the opportunity to be part of an Endicott period gun crew down the coast a bit at the only California disappearing rifle battery, Battery Chamberlain, I believe.  I did a terraserver search of the Presidio compound not long ago, and here are quite a few cannon there, most on a small, rectangular concrete pad, so they are easy to spot from above, scattered among all those terra-cotta tile roofs as they are.  Now if there are a couple iron guns to lure us over there, we might be able to snap a few of those green ones too.  Roman numerals, eh?  We will see.

T&M

[dominick]

Mike on the left  and Tracy on the right!

Is that a Dictator carriage or a look-a-like with different dimensions?

[dan610324]

if it would be a look a like I dont think the lower step should be there
and by obvious reasons the upper step is removed

so my guess is that it is comming from a dictator

is it anyone who got the dimensions for both the guns and can compare them ??
would be interesting to hear the result

[cannonmn]

Now if there are a couple iron guns to lure us over there, we might be able to snap a few of those green ones too.

There was at least one big Rodman gun on a concrete mount sitting on the parade ground at the Presidio, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have moved.  Also, as I recall the Presidio museum had some stuff from the Coast Artillery days, hard to recall what, since that museum had something from various periods, including some interesting exhibits on the SF earthquake of 1906.  One of the few remaining WWI-era 155MM GPF guns, nicely preserved, on coast arty platform as I recall, was right outside the museum.

[cannonmn]

This AM I figgered out the meaning of the Roman numerals on the Spanish guns, they are just an early form of weight mark.  For instance the mark on one cannons named SALBARO (St. Albaro?) is shown.  This one has two different forms of weight mark, each meaning 3050 Spanish pounds, which was expressed in either set of marks as basically 30 quintales plus 2 arrobas.  A quintale is 100 Spanish pounds and an arroba is 25 Span. lbs.



For bigger pic:  http://i17.photobucket.com/album

s/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0462.jpg

I'm covering all this in excruciating detail on the CMH board, I'm sure more so than anyone here wants to read.

[dominick]

...  The carriage appears to be a 13-inch mortar bed, with special bushings added to adapt the 15-in. gun's trunnions to it..

...  Yeah, I think that's definitely a 13-inch seacoast mortar bed.

Guess I should read the previous posts more carefully.        My question's answered.  Thanks.