30-30 rifle barrel misfires, any suggestions?

[Dezynco]

I borrowed my Dad's 21" 30-30 carbine barrel to do a little shooting before deer season. I am shooting with my G2 Contender.  I have an alarming number of my cartridges that are just going "click" (3 out of 5 yesterday).  I can chamber all of the "duds" with dented primers and fire them just fine in my old Winchester '94.

I am hand loading my ammo.   I do NOT have a hammer extension.  This does not happen on any of my other barrels (new or old).  The firing pin does not seem to be broken, although I did not try to disassemble the firing pin block.  The center fire/ rim fire selector is in the correct position.

Does anyone have an idea why this is happening, or does anyone know of a link where this might have been discussed before?

[aimhard]

probably a weak spring

[RAdkins]

Two things to check.  The first and easiest is be sure your stock bolt is tight and there is no wiggle in the stock.  Why this effects firing I don't know but it does.  Second is the correct headspace.  If you loaded rounds for another rifle chances are that the headspace is not correct for the Contender barrel.  Brass for the Contender must be full length resized.  Check correct headspacing by holding the extractor down and drop a resized case in the chamber.  It should be flush with the end of the barrel.  If it is sticking out any it will not allow the barrel to lock up properly which will cause a light pin strike.

[Sixgun]

I had the same problem with my Hornet barrel and the last generation frame, before the G2.  Remington brass worked fine but the Winchester brass gave the same type of missfires with a small dent in the primer.

What was finally figured out was that the Win brass rim was all different sizes.  Some were thicker that others and would not allow the barrel to close tight enough and the hammer would give a light strike.  I miked all of my Win brass and hit the thick rims with a file and everything worked just fine after that.

I emailed Winchester and told them the problem and they told me I was crazy but I noticed right after that their Hornet brass had more uniform rims.

Sixgun

[Blackhawker]

I've been getting an awful lot of misfires with my T/C rifle barrel on my G2 frame lately too.  It seems like I've had a lot of them ever since I started using my G2 frame on my older rifle barrel.  In addition, I've been getting a lot of split cases at the web.  Now I'm aware that this is the first place that a case will thin and crack after several re-loads but some of these are once fired.  I can't figure out what's going on here.  When I fire the same reloads from my T/C frame with my T/C pistol barrel, I don't have any problems. 

My guess is that the G2 frame just doesn't lock up as tight as the original T/C frame with my older barrel.    I've been wondering what's going on here for quite some time.  My original thought was to buy a new barrel for my G2 frame but I have no idea if that's going to solve anything either. 



Oddly enough, I've been having problems with my .223 rifle barrel on my G2 frame too.  I seem to get a lot of primers backing out into and jamming up the firing pin hole.  Some primers blow completely through with a hole left in them.  The remaining metal from the primer cup usually ends up stuck in the action or in the firing pin hole and jams the firing pin up.  These are NOT by any means "hot" loads and they work fine in my old T/C frame.  Again, I can't figure out what's going on here.   

I share in your wonders Dezynco.  All I know is that I hope I can find a solution.

[David D.]

Most misfires,not all, from Encores and Contenders come from incorrect head space. I own and shoot several different cartridges, from rimless, semi rimmed, to rimmed and all are head spaced off the shoulders, regardless of rim style.

[Grumulkin]

The headspace theory and weak spring suggestions are valid.

A couple of other suggestions would be:

1.  Try a softer primer like Remington or Federal.  If you're using CCI primers, they're a bit harder than the others.

2.  Make sure the primer is fully seated in the primer pocket.  If it isn't, it takes the first firing pin strike to seat it and the second strike to fire it.  I usually seat primers, turn the case a bit and seat them again just to make sure they're bottomed out in the primer pocket.  Of course, if you can't even shoot the cartridges with a second try, it's not a primer seating issue.

3.  I haven't shot a G2 Contender but I think their made similar to an Encore.  There is a screw on an Encore with an Allen head where the hammer strikes.  If that screw is loose you will get misfires.

[Dezynco]

So far as I can tell, it's just THIS barrel.  I don't have any problem with any other barrel.  I might try some new brass, and keep that brass with this barrel.  I have had trouble in the past with old brass that has been reloaded several times developing a "memory" for the chamber that it was fired in.  Since this is my Dad's carbine barrel, and my brass was mostly fired in my Super 14 30-30 barrel, there might just be enough difference in headspace to cause the misfires.

I am using CCI primers, so I might switch to another brand (if I can find them!) or use large pistol primers instead of large rifle.

[GameHauler]

I was getting a bunch of misfires with my 7-30 Waters
changed from CCI primers and all was good.

[Dezynco]

Switched to pistol primers, problem seems to be solved!  Groups seem to be better also!

[securitysix]

In addition, I've been getting a lot of split cases at the web.  Now I'm aware that this is the first place that a case will thin and crack after several re-loads but some of these are once fired.

I must be doing something wrong, because mine split and crack at the neck/shoulder area way before the web wears out, and I full length resize everything.

Sounds like you have a headspace issue with that barrel and your G2 frame.  Also sounds like the same problem doesn't exist with your older frame. 

[Blackhawker]

In addition, I've been getting a lot of split cases at the web.  Now I'm aware that this is the first place that a case will thin and crack after several re-loads but some of these are once fired.

I must be doing something wrong, because mine split and crack at the neck/shoulder area way before the web wears out, and I full length resize everything.

Sounds like you have a headspace issue with that barrel and your G2 frame.  Also sounds like the same problem doesn't exist with your older frame. 

I full length resize as well.  Funny thing is that I found a clearance price on a new T/C stainless barrel in 23 inches (which I've always wanted to buy).  I bought it and tried it out a few weeks ago.  Guess what?  No more cracked cases and no cases with the white line on them (indicating thinning brass).  I guess the old barrel just didn't lock up correctly with the G2 frame, hence a headspace problem.    Thus far, problem solved. 

Now, I haven't fired that many rounds from the barrel yet and therefore I may not have come across any old brass (many times reloaded) from my stock.  I guess I'll have to keep shooting it for a while and see if any show up....but so far so good.

[southernutah]

30-30 headspaces off the rim not the shoulder like rimless. check the bullets  are flush  not counter sunk with barrel and then the gap between barrel and frame.

[Hopalong7]

     If it's just this one barrel,  I'm betting on a lock bolt fit problem.  Try different amounts of force on closing the action and see if it makes a difference.  You can also swap out the lock bolt(it's quite easy to do) with a barrel that fires good and see if there's a difference.  If this appears to be the problem, remove the bolt and polish the mating surface with Flitz or something similiar, clean, lube with a little grafite and retry.  Do not try to remove an amount of metal, just polish!!!
Good Luck

[Blackhawker]

Took a trip to the range yesterday and shot my new 30-30 barrel a little more.  Well, it seems that the new barrel didn't fix the problem.  There is no way I'm ever going to know this but, truthfully, I'm beginning to suspect that the problem is old brass.  Unfortunately, I mix my brass every time I shoot it.  In other words, the 1X fired brass gets mixed in with the 7x fired brass, etc.  So, I have no way of determining how old each piece of brass is until I fire it and it shows either a crack or the tell-tale white line on the web.  Unfortunately, I guess I've just got to fire the stuff until the old stuff gets thrown away.    Either that or I can throw it all away and start over but I don't think I want to replace 1000 or more pieces of brass when I know that a LOT of it is fairly new and only 1X fired.

The only other way I might determine if this is a chamber issue or an old brass issue would be to take two or three different firearms to the range and fire 40 or more rounds from each.  If most of the broken cases come from the G2 rifle, then I might conclude that there is a lock-up issue.    I guess I'll have to see what happens.
Thanks for your input on this.

[southernutah]

I t will be a PITA but you might give T/C a call and send everthing in for a check up. An other thing that comes to mind is brass length. Do you have a way to check that the brass isn't to long. I don't crimp the 30-30 I shoot in my contender and trim them 10 thousands shorter than the recomended trim length. I'm also using pointed bullets. I found that my throat is short and some 30-30 bullets crimped in to the cannelure will not let the barrel close.

Is the fireing pin denting the primmer. If so might be the primmers.

[southernutah]

I've been getting an awful lot of misfires with my T/C rifle barrel on my G2 frame lately too.  It seems like I've had a lot of them ever since I started using my G2 frame on my older rifle barrel.  In addition, I've been getting a lot of split cases at the web.


Oddly enough, I've been having problems with my .223 rifle barrel on my G2 frame too.  I seem to get a lot of primers backing out into and jamming up the firing pin hole.  Some primers blow completely through with a hole left in them.  The remaining metal from the primer cup usually ends up stuck in the action or in the firing pin hole and jams the firing pin up.  These are NOT by any means "hot" loads and they work fine in my old T/C frame.  Again, I can't figure out what's going on here.  

I share in your wonders Dezynco.  All I know is that I hope I can find a solution.

sounds like a pressure problem  on the 223. Are the brass commercial or mil surplus. If you are mixing like I did they do not have the same capacity. The pressure spikes with the smaller capacity. I aso found that not all my 223s have the same chamber throat length. Take one of you reloads and twist it in a scotch brite pad leaving light scratch marks that go around the bullet. Chamber it in the rifle and remove. With a magnifying glass  see if you have small marks showing the bullet hitting the rifleings. If so this would spike the pressure , seat the bullets until the marks are gone.

[Hopalong7]

     Are you still having miss-fires out of the new barrel too?

[Blackhawker]

Hi guys,

I forgot to mention yesterday in my last post that I resolved the primer problem with my .223.  Believe it or not, it's the type of primers.  I have used Winchester primers in the past and never had a problem but it seems that CCI, or at least the lot of CCI primers I have been using are the culprit. 

I loaded varying loads and my typical load in different types of brass using Federal primers instead of my usual CCI.  I also brought along some factory PMC ammo.  I shot and shot for about an hour and as soon as I came across a round loaded with a CCI primer (regardless of load or brass type), the action hung up and the primer deformed back into the firing pin hole.  So it looks like I'll be loading my .223's with Winchester or Federal primers from now on.  Lesson learned.

On a new note with the 30-30:  Last night I got to thinking about what one of you said in a post having to do with 30-30's headspacing on the rim.  I got to thinking about things and so I tested a few things last night.  As it turns out, when I load pointed bullets in my 30-30 rounds for my T/C's I always seat the bullets in reference to my pistol barrel and not my rifle barrel.  For kicks, I went through all of my loaded ammo, checking each load in each chamber.  I even checked the chambering of unloaded brass as a reference of how far each round seats in a chamber.  What I discovered last night is that my pistol barrel has a deeper throat than both of my rifle barrels (all T/C barrels).  So, even though my loads chamber correctly in my pistol, almost every round did not seat fully in the rifle chambers and the ogive of each bullet were resting on the lands.  Hence, each rifle round is probably not seating fully in the chamber when being fired and the case is over-expanding when being fired and cracking. 
For the time being, this is my postulation and I'll test this the next time I get to the range (after I reseat all of the bullets) but it sure seems to follow the reason why I haven't seen so many (if any) cases not crack in my pistol as opposed to my rifle.  SO....I guess I leave this message as a note to all.  When loading pointed bullets or different style bullets for your 30-30, check the seating in both chambers (pistol and/or rifle) if you're intending to shoot them from both.  The chambers ARE different in both. 

Thanks to those of you who put the bird in my ear about seating and headspacing on the rim!

[Hopalong7]

    If you're blowing CCI primers, which are the toughest, back into the firing pin hole you are running way too much pressure, which is caused, at least partially, by the bullets being in the lands before firing.  You've already figured out that you need to custom load for each barrel so you're headed in the right direction.  You just need to determine your COL for each barrel.  I'd back off that load a little too and work back up to it.  In loading for a Contender with every different barrel and every different bullet, I remove the barrel from the action, just barely neck size a case so a bullet will slip in the neck fairly easy(but will hold in place if turned vertically), place a bullet in the case and chamber it, then point the barrel muzzle down and tap it lightly with my plastic mallet(or a block of wood), turn the barrel back up and carefully remove the case & bullet and measure the overall length.  Then back off .005"-.010" and that's my COL.  You then have ammo custom loaded for that particular chamber.  This is the best reason I know of for reloading.
    My friend southernutah said the 30-30 headspaces on the rim.  I've got to respectfully dissagree with him, at least partially.  Yes, a rimmed case can and will headspace on the rim if it's sized too short for the chamber, but this is detrimental to performance and case life.  ALL bottleneck cases should be headspaced on the shoulder!!!  Nobody learned this lesson any harder than yours truely, years ago when I got my first 30Herrett barrel.
GOOD SHOOTIN', Walt

[Blackhawker]

The primer problems were with the 223, not the 30-30.  Ironically, my load is UNDER what most load manuals state so I was concerned that maybe my pressure was too high from too low of a load.  SO, I loaded many loads, mine and higher loads.  The irony of the whole thing is that the SOFTEST primer (Federal) stood fine and the CCI failed.  Truthfully, I think it's a bad lot of CCI primers and not their primers altogether.

The 30-30 is the rifle with the bullets resting on the lands.  Lesson learned there.  I'll be further seating all of the bullets I have loaded since none of them have cannalures on them nor are they crimped.

[southernutah]

I agree with hopalong  that every bottleneck caliber  SHOULD have the headspace measured from the shoulder.  The rimless being the most critical.You can under size the rimmed and belted and still fire but not always with rimless. ALL the  different calibers I have even the belted magnums that headspace off the belt get  the chamber and the reloaded ammo headspace checked to the shoulder with a RCBS precesion mic. I had a Winchester 300 win mag that the chamber was so long the brass was unloadable. Also the more you resize and shoot barss the hard it gets. It makes it harder for the dies to resize. If you have some bullets that are hard to close the action on look first at the headspace. I  pulled a bunch until i got the mics to check it all out.

[scratcherky]

When hand loading it is best to headspace all bottle neck cartridges off the shoulder. That being said I am in process of tracking down a headspace problem on my G2 handgun in 7-30 Waters shooting only Federal premium ammo. That ammo rim is 0.005 inch below the barrel face, so I specificly asked the ammo tech at Federal where their 7-30 ammo was designed to headspace and his answer was the rim. He was very definite in his answer.
I am not having misfires but my primers are protruding from 0.010 to 0.012 inch after firing. T/C of course wants me to send the frame & barrel to them for evaluation. It appears I will have to do this if I want to shoot factory ammo. In my opinion the chamber in my barrel is cut too deep by about 0.005 inch. I have no pressure signs & extraction is easy.

[Hopalong7]

    I'm pretty sure it was Bob Milek's writing about the 30Herrett many years ago where I first heard about headspacing cases on the shoulder by the "crush fitting" method...sizing the cases intentionally long(where the action would not close properly) and gradually turning the sizer in a little at a time until the action would just close with a little snap.  At the time I had just gotten my Herrett barrel and was having a h@%& of a time with misfires....followed his instructions...problem solved.  I cannot remember any bottle neck cartridge since then in any of my Contenders, Encores or Handi's that didn't protrude slightly out the rear of the chamber.  I never(well almost) shoot factory ammo.

[scratcherky]

Hopalong7, I agree that if I reload for this barrel I can headspace on the shoulder and make the problem go away. This is the first time in about 30 years I have tried factory ammo. I have about 6 boxes of this ammo and would like to be able to use it. A barrel from a manufacturer should have a chamber cut with proper headspace.

[Hopalong7]

      scratcherky,  I see absolutely nothing wrong with your expectations!

[Blackhawker]

Quick range report....
The other night I took all of my 30-30 loads and further seated the non 30-30 style bullets.  I seated all of the bullets so that they were just at or slightly below the lands of my rifle barrel.  Results:  NO CRACKED CASES!!