Author Topic: Carronades on U.S.S. Shark (Read 2645 times)

Double D · « **on:** November 27, 2009, 08:15:00 AM »

Looking for drawings of the 18 PDR carronades that would have ben carried on the U.S.S. Shark

Cannoneer · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2009, 08:18:55 AM »

Redo that url, D.

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2009, 08:22:20 AM »

redo'd! Thanks!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2009, 08:44:57 AM »

Northwest Cultural Resources Institute
Vancouver National Historic Reserve Check pp.1, 3.

NCRI Report

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2009, 09:52:09 AM »

I've been curious about the "Mc. House Cannon" shown on pp. 6 of BoomJ's post, ever since I found it on the web and posted it on this board a couple of years ago. I'm a bit surprised there's no comment in the article that the cannon itself is mounted upside-down, so that the inverted marks on the trunnions are now right-side up. Clearly no muzzle-loading cannon I've ever seen has trunnions above the bore centerline, so it must be mounted upside-down. Might there be some marks on top of the gun (now on underside) that no one's seen?

For DD, I have a copy of a very thick document, "Rep. No. 141, National Foundry, March 3, 1835, Congress of the United States." Most of it consists of a report by CAPT. Thomas ap. Catesby Jones, of an inspection he conducted of some 2400 naval guns at six different Navy yards. There are probably a couple of dozen 18 pdr. carronades in the report, which gives several measurements for them, and descriptions of features (raised vent for lock or not, hole for screw or not, breech ring or not, etc.) There are no drawings. However if the measurements interest you I could find a way to summarize them I think. The data tables themselves are strung out for a few pages and thus would not photograph in any comprehensible way.

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2009, 10:25:59 AM »

I think this is one of the views I posted back then:

cannonmn · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2009, 10:29:16 AM »

and another one on this pg

http://www.yelp.com/user_local_photos?userid=SxendBvKWhXRMhGlxwSdEw&select=ZiyhY38OBr_WDmjl8ED5NQ

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:27:15 AM »

Boomj,

The illustration in the Shark article appears to be of a English Carronade perhaps one from the HMS Victory. I have it already, thanks anyway.

John, I am researching Carronades and in particular the 18 PDR as used on Shark. The document you have, could the 18 PDR carronade section it be copied at Staples or Kinko's...at my expenses of course.

I still would like to find drawing of the 18 PDR's and their mounts. I need a vusualization to go with dimensions and particuarly the mounts.

cannonmn · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:47:01 AM »

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The document you have, could the 18 PDR carronade section it be copied

It is tough to explain, not all in one place, spread thru whole report, data for one weapon may be a line continuing for two or three pages. Lemme think about a way to export the imagery or data.

It is probably best for me to photograph or scan or copy all the 18 pr. Carronade data from one of the Navy Yards that had many of 'em, then see if you need more. I'd pick one that had a number like the one in the x-ray, with hole for el. screw, and with a breeching loop.

Quote

I still would like to find drawing of the 18 PDR's and their mounts.

I'll look thru a stack of copies of Navy drawings I got from the Archives; I don't recall a carronade that small but a good drawing of a larger-bore weapon would be better than nothing. Also, what I'm seeing in this huge inspection report is that there seem to have been more English-made weapons than American-made, except for the 32 pounders, which were largely American-made. I didn't really count nor even make a good estimate, it just seems that way from flipping pages.

cannonmn · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2009, 01:08:07 PM »

DD, here's an old USN drawing of an 18 pdr. "pivot carronade" from the Nat. Archives, Record Group 74 "Records of the Bureau of Naval Ordnance." I don't know the date of the drawing and it isn't recorded on the drawing, we'd have to try and find some dated drawings with straddling numbers. I'd guess it is sometime 1820-1840.

The old Navy drawing number is 7790. I don't know the "entry" number offhand which would be desirable for a complete citation. I can find it out later if needed. I can provide it in another form if required, the form it is in here is on photo paper, about 12x16 or so.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums49/IMG_1261.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums49/IMG_1266.jpg

GGaskill · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2009, 01:19:04 PM »

Is that second image showing the way you wanted it to display?

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2009, 01:35:18 PM »

John,

Is that supposed to be an U.S 18 PDR? If so then drawing Boomj posted is US. The US carronades, I found all had rounded and not stepped cascabals.

If you have any other drawing or photos that show carriage and mounts, that would be great.

What would it cost me to get copies of that drawing. Staple or Kinko's could make copies that big.

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »

Quote

Is that second image showing the way you wanted it to display?

It is just a closeup of a part of the first one, the left end of the "scale." You can see the diagonal gives you an easy way to measure 8ths with your dividers, just count squares from the top to get the numerator.

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Is that supposed to be an U.S 18 PDR?

Yes it is, as far as I can tell. In a USN drawing a foreign piece would be identified as such.

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I found all had rounded and not stepped cascabals.

I personally would not want to make such a general statement unless I'd seen the vast majority of them, and certainly I haven't since most are long gone. Also you have to be careful about just saying "US" because a very sizeable percentage of USN iron guns, gunades, carronades, etc. in use in the early 19th C. were made in England. Some were indeed captured pieces but the vast majority of British iron ordnance in use in the USN was purchased from England from about the 1790's onward.

I can put a full-sized cy of this in the mail soon, just pm me an address.

carronader · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2009, 10:24:30 AM »

DD the link is specific to 18pdr carronade............scroll down to plans.........is first or second.........plan and elevation....http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/the-royal-navy/research-guide-b10-naval-gunnery-sources-of-information-at-the-national-maritime-museum

carronader · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2009, 11:35:35 AM »

maybe have something.............e-mail.

cannonmn · « **Reply #15 on:** November 28, 2009, 01:24:10 PM »

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DD the link is specific to 18pdr carronade............scroll down to plans.........is first or second.........plan and elevation....http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/the-royal-navy/research-guide-b10-naval-gunnery-sources-of-information-at-the-national-maritime-museum

I have the first two 18 pdr. carronade items under "ship plans." The first one will be in the pkg I send to DD, the second is an oddball one-of-a-kind I don't think he needs? The one at very end of the list I don't think I've seen.

I found them today along with another US drawing of an 18 pdr. carronade tube.

I will photog. and post later so y'all can see what they look like.

Anyone doing any serious research on US Navy muzzle-loading ordnance should read Spencer Tucker's "Arming the Fleet." He's already done all the hard work, pulling stuff out of the arcives, digesting it, organizing it, then presenting it in a very readable book that is very reasonably-priced considering the vast amount of information it contains. The bibliography and notes are treasure-troves of resources. He's taken a lot of fuzzy and faint and faded drawings from the archives and redrawn them, then stacked related drawings near each other so you can compare various models of cannon.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** November 28, 2009, 02:21:30 PM »

Thanks John and Tom for your help!!!

cannonmn · « **Reply #17 on:** November 28, 2009, 02:55:47 PM »

The other drawings. You can see how the USN drawing I posted earlier seems to be an "adaptation" of this British drawing. The tube looks identical, but the carriage has changed.

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** November 28, 2009, 03:22:25 PM »

John,

That's what I am looking for!!! Those Blueprints!!!!

Are there any drawings of the carriages or bases?

If you can send me copies of that print I would be greatful!

cannonmn · « **Reply #19 on:** November 28, 2009, 03:40:13 PM »

I have one dwg of a USN 32-pounder carronade carriage which might be of interest, even though the dimensions wouldn't be correct for an 18 pdr. Would that one help any?

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2009, 04:37:52 PM »

Yes, that would help, they could be scaled!

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2009, 04:51:11 PM »

OK DD, my plan is to get the drawings copied and shipped early this week. I assume the drawings will suffice and won't copy the inspecton reports I mentioned, which show 18 pdrs at Navy yards and some of their dimensions, unless you want those too.

GGaskill · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2009, 05:24:12 PM »

There is a carronade/gunnade carriage on the NHC CD-ROM.

Double D · « **Reply #23 on:** November 28, 2009, 05:41:49 PM »

The drawings are what I am after...but if you think the inspection reports will help me build one of these guns...I'll let you be the judge.

George, I just found the drawing of the carriage. That and the Drawing John is sending should get me enough data to start drawing up a gun.

Thanks guys.

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2009, 06:13:02 PM »

George,

I know that we have always talked about the Constitution having Gunades instead of carronades...and the gunade drawings are on that CD...did you you know there is a carronade on that disk also--a 32 PDR!

With your drawings and John's drawings, plus the ones Tom sent me, I am going to look and see if one of those three guns are in this.

So I can shoot these.

RocklockI · « **Reply #25 on:** November 29, 2009, 02:46:33 PM »

Yikes , that looks like a heck of a project ! Good Luck

Gary

Cannoneer · « **Reply #26 on:** November 30, 2009, 10:04:46 AM »

Cannonmn,
The last five drawings in your reply #17 appear to fit the bill when compared with the carronade known to be from the Shark that was discovered on the beach in 1898. The two cannons that washed up on the shore in 2008 are currently at Texas A&M University where it has been estimated that the ongoing conservation work will not be completed for many years to come.
See Figure 5. p. 21, and Photo 2. p. 11 (after p. 23, out of sequence)

Recovery of Arch Cape cannons

Double D · « **Reply #27 on:** November 30, 2009, 11:46:20 AM »

Thanks Boomj for that!!

It shows the rounded breech version that I was looking for and matches up with the versions George, Cannonmn and Carronader came up with. Thanks a bunch!

cannonmn · « **Reply #28 on:** November 30, 2009, 12:00:47 PM »

I have to wonder a little about a report that uses the term "cannonade" (caption to fig. 5.) I didn't read the whole report, maybe they explain themselves in it. If not, ..?...?

Sometimes you get very knowledgeable scientists, archaeologists, etc. who get involved with cannons for the first time and come up with things I think are odd, or miss some things that seem obvious to me. For example, I'm still amazed that none of the researchers have made any comment about the fact that the McLaughlin House cannon in Ore. City, OR appears to be mounted upside-down.

Does the position of that cannon and the apparently inverted markings bother anyone else? If not, someone 'splain it to me.

GGaskill · « **Reply #29 on:** November 30, 2009, 12:52:31 PM »

You must have noticed the PhD after the author's name in the heading. Now tell me what university teaches anything about cannons?