Author Topic: .223 Performance on Deer (Read 20113 times)

jmayton · « **on:** November 29, 2009, 04:04:47 PM »

My Colt M4 and I have teamed up for two deer so far this season. It's not my normal deer rifle, but was what I had with me when I stumbled upon the deer. The last one was a cull spike that I shot this past weekend. The bullet entered it's left shoulder, cut the heart in half, and lodged itself underneath the opposite shoulder. It is (or was) a 55gr Sierra GameKing SBT. I've been shooting these for quite some time for hogs and they took several doe last year. I don't always get or take the time to recover the bullets, but this one cooperated. On the left is the 55gr GameKing and on the right is a 150gr GameKing that I load for my 30-06. I am quite pleased with the performance of these bullets and how they significantly increase the capability of the smaller calibers.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #1 on:** November 29, 2009, 04:30:05 PM »

Textbook!!!!!!!

What's the weight of the recovered bullet?

jmayton · « **Reply #2 on:** November 29, 2009, 04:39:29 PM »

I haven't weighed it yet. But I'm guessing somewhere between 45-50grs. That highly trained and technical guess was confirmed by a shooting buddy of mine this morning. I'll weigh it and post.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #3 on:** November 29, 2009, 04:52:16 PM »

When you do please post all the load and shot details

jmayton · « **Reply #4 on:** November 29, 2009, 04:54:49 PM »

Certainly.

Lone Star · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:47:27 AM »

Quote

I am quite pleased with the performance of these bullets and how they significantly increase the capability of the smaller calibers.

In the past I have used my CAR15 shooting the Nosler 60 SB with good results on deer - no CNS shots either. Why do you say that the Sierra 55s "significantly increase" the performance - is it better than other bullets of the same general weight you've used? Not doubting or trying to argue, just trying to increase my understanding.

.

jmayton · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2009, 05:01:51 AM »

All I'm saying is that properly constructed controlled expansion bullets like the Sierra, Nosler Partition, Barnes, etc. make the .223 perform on a wider range of game. It used to be only a varmint or military (fmj) round and now that there is a wider bullet selection for it, you can do more with it. I'd like to shoot Nosler's or Barnes, or even Berger's, but I'm cheap so I keep using the Sierras.

jmayton · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2009, 03:44:50 AM »

Finally weighed the bullet. Actually a friend weighed it on two different scales. It was 53.3grs. That's 96.9% weight retention! The load is 20.9grs of H4198 CCI Small Rifle Primer in commercial brass. This gets me around 3100fps. The shot was just under 100yds.

pastorp · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2009, 03:55:18 AM »

I don't think the sierra gamekings are in the same class with the Nosler partions or the barnes. I've never heard anyone use them in the same sentence.

Regards

jmayton · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2009, 04:05:07 AM »

pastorp, they're certainly not in the same price class! . . .but as for performance. . . hmmm, well, uh . . . they all kill pretty well. I had an old gunsmith/hunting guide (think about the old gunsmith in Shooter) tell me to not waste my money on those expensive bullets like the Nosler and Barnes and just shoot Remington core-lokts. This is from a guy who met John Nosler and got to be pretty chummy with guys like Bruce Hogdon. So, the way I see it, I can spend twice the price for nosler, barnes, or berger or get basically the same performance from my sierra's for cheap. There, used together in a sentence once again.

To clarify a bit, I have nothing against the more pricey bullets. I'd happily shoot them. It would be interesting to see pics and stats on Nosler, Barnes, Berger, etc. of the same wieght (or close) and caliber and see how well they performed. Truth is, if it hits bone, the Nosler and the Barnes should hold together better, but I don't have any real-world experience to back that up. Maybe I'll load some up. Kill some hogs with my sierra's then shoot them in the shoulder with the others, dig out the bullets and see how they did.

teddy12b · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2009, 05:14:37 AM »

This is a great thread. I usualy shoot the 69gr matchkings in my 223's, but I've been thinking about switching to gamekings just in case I needed hunting bullets and finding reviews on the gamekings is pretty tough. This is a great write up and I'm glad to see that you got some deer and took the time to weigh the recovered bullet. I have some of the 65gr gamekings on the way just because of this thread.

Carutht · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2009, 09:58:01 AM »

I used a Barnes on a deer last year. I had a Remington LTR in .223 and just wanted to see how it performed. The shot was broadside at about 70 yards. The bullet broke a rib going in, took the top of the heart off, broke a rib going out and continued downrange spewing lung tissue onto the ground. I have been taking deer since I was 13 years old and I am now 60. The problem I have had with Nosler Partitions and Barns is they rarely stay in the animal to weigh later. I have recovered only one 95 grain N/P from a .243. That was a frontal shot and the bullet was recovered just in front of the ham. The back of the partition and the metal from the front was left. I did recover a Barnes Spit-Fire 285 grain from an Elk I shot with a muzzleloader at 180 yards. It broke a rib going in, went through the lungs, broke a rib going out, broke the scapula near the front leg joint and lodged under the skin. Weight retention was 100% and the bullet looked like the pictures you see. My hunting buddy shot an Elk as well and that bullet was 100%and could have been in a commercial. Those are the only recovered bullets and the two of us have been hunting together since our early 20's. 98% of our takes have been with a N/P with a .243. I personally want an exit but for the three exceptions we get it.

jmayton · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2009, 10:14:40 AM »

Carutht, thanks for the input. I typically like an exit as well and my 30-06 usually complies. I don't think one passing through is much of a problem. I guess I would be concerned that they are constructed too tough and don't expand enough to tranfer their energy inside the animal. A 150gr like in the picture was used to take a coyote who wandered out at the wrong time. I hit him just behind the ribs and I had a .30 hole going in and maybe a .338 hole going out. Clean pass-through with little, if any expansion. Still killed him, but it showed what a big, tough bullet will do on something small and thin-skinned. I want the bullet to do as much damage as possible once it's inside the animal and that usually means it has to either expand or fragment.

pastorp · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2009, 06:16:56 PM »

Jmayton, I would agree with your gunsmith friend. My favorite hunting bullet is the remingto core-locs. I have killed a lot of deer with them. Also with the sierras. The point I was getting at is especially the barnes are too tough at times. The noslers are great preformers but just too expensive.

I was not questioning the preformance of the sierras but your comparision with the noslers & barnes. Noslers cost too much and barnes are just too tough for deer size game. I think the cor-loc is ideal ant the sierras not far behind.

I once shot a big mule deer in the chest with a sierra 165gr 308 bullet. The deer was facing me and about 80 yards away. I found the bullet just in front of his hind leg. A barnes would no doubt have exited but why do I need that. The heart was gone so my mulley ran in the direction he was facing and I watched him pile up after a 50yd run.

On a broadside shot the sierra or cor-loc will exit usually. Noslers are designed for a different use and the barnes as well.

Regards,

jmayton · « **Reply #14 on:** December 09, 2009, 03:57:44 AM »

pastorp, understood. Apologies. The point I was making was that they are all a controlled expansion type of bullet. It's just that the Nosler's and the Barnes expand much slower. . . or, uh differently. Anyway, they are all marketed for the same type of game, so I think the comparison is somewhat valid because of that.

josie wales · « **Reply #15 on:** December 09, 2009, 02:00:07 PM »

Are there other people here that are scratching their heads on this topic? A 55 grain Gameking bullet doing this is rare. Something is wrong and this post will send some people out armed with this combination and it will result in LOST animals and much suffering! If you feel a need to use something .224 please use a Barnes,Nosler Partition,Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or a Winchester Power Point. Winchester went through a great big expense developing the 64 grain Power Point for hunters that use .224 diameter bullets on deer(.223 WSSM). The preformance you experienced with this Gameking is not typical. Better yet use the '06 it is a sure killer and no tracking and lost animals.

jmayton · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2009, 03:01:52 PM »

so josie, what then is typical performance of the 55gr GameKing? I've shot probably 75 or so hogs with them ranging in weight from 20-300lbs and 6 deer have fallen to it as well. The only animals lost have been 6 or so hogs that ran into the brush and were never recovered (mainly because I didn't want to go in after them). If a bullet can kill a hog, it can kill a deer. I agree that in general something of greater diameter is preferred for medium game. I'm just impressed that a small bullet did so well. I am continually amazed at how well my cheap, inferior, sub-par, non-boutique-bullet, gamekings keep killing animals.

chutesnreloads · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2009, 04:54:01 PM »

Have a 60 grain partition I recovered from a wet clay bank.Just eyeballing it compared to your G.K. it appears the G.K. has a bit more expansion.Would the partition expand more in game?Don't know.Like you the .223 isn't my "go to" deer rifle.Started using the partitions for turkey.Needed something to hit them at a distance and not blow them to pieces.The partition has peformed very well for that job and if a hog gets in the way when I'm carrying that .223 he's going to be dead.Been paying attention to your comments on the G.K. because them partitions are expensive and the G.K.'s would appear to perform if not equally as well then close enough for what I want.I'll be suprised if they're not as accurate if not more so too.When I run out of my current batch of partitions you can bet I'll be working up a load for the G.K. Thanks Jmayton

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #18 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:42:44 PM »

Quote from: josie wales on December 09, 2009, 02:00:07 PM

Are there other people here that are scratching their heads on this topic? A 55 grain Gameking bullet doing this is rare. Something is wrong and this post will send some people out armed with this combination and it will result in LOST animals and much suffering! If you feel a need to use something .224 please use a Barnes,Nosler Partition,Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or a Winchester Power Point. Winchester went through a great big expense developing the 64 grain Power Point for hunters that use .224 diameter bullets on deer(.223 WSSM). The preformance you experienced with this Gameking is not typical. Better yet use the '06 it is a sure killer and no tracking and lost animals.

Read these reviews and see who's scratching their head and who isn't
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=280317

How exactly is a Gameking supposed to behave? DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH THIS BULLET? The performance of the OP's bullet has been pretty typical from my experiences. Below is a pic of the hole the 55grn gameking left going into a deers chest cavity after shooting through one shoulder and leg. Not pictured is the bullets continued path through the opposing shoulder and into the leg muscle onto the opposing side. Alas I didn't recover my bullet as I had the deer in question professionally processed.

Also worth note the impact velocity for this pic would have been very high as I load this bullet just under 3K fps at the muzzle and the deer in question was NO MORE than 30yds away

no guns here · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2009, 09:53:45 PM »

This is one of those... "just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it" things. At least that's my opinion.

The .223/5.56 isn't a reliable killer if there is ANY error in shot placement. Can it penetrate and break bone? Yes. Can it take out heart/lungs? Yes. Can it penetrate through and through? Yes. Will that 55gr pill do ANY of these things as well and as reliably as a heavier bullet? No.

I've killed two deer with my AR using Barnes bullets. Both were high percentage CNS shots (brain). Truthfully though I could have made those shots with a good .22 LR too. Doesn't mean I SHOULD have.

My personal limit for caliber/bullets for medium/big game is the 6mm Remington. Even that is limited to smaller deer and antelope some day. For anything above that I'll move up in caliber and bullet weight.

I don't say that you need a .375 for deer or elk... I think that mass and penetration are what is important. Mass breaks bones, penetration lets blood out and air in from both sides. Light bullets just aren't reliable enough to make up for the missing mass, they just don't penetrate as well as heavier bullets either.

Every thing I said is my opinion only...

NGH

jmayton · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2009, 04:22:30 AM »

ngh, I agree. The laws of physics are pretty hard to argue with and more mass transfers more energy at a given velocity and surface area than less mass. But what surprised me was that the little 55 expanded out to nearly .45 diameter. Now ever though it is lower mass, it larger cross section will transfer more energy than say a 220gr .338 that never expanded. Since the mass isn't spread out over a larger surface area, all you get out the greater mass is more penetration. Now taken the same performance out of a larger caliber bullet, the larger one would do better. So better to hit them with a small, expanding bullet than a larger bullet that doesn't expand.

How's that for armchair physics? Again, I'll say that the .223 is not my go-to deer caliber, but what what I had with me this year.

drdougrx · « **Reply #21 on:** December 10, 2009, 05:05:01 AM »

...and you did good with it. Nuff said.

teddy12b · « **Reply #22 on:** December 10, 2009, 05:52:25 AM »

Quote from: drdougrx on December 10, 2009, 05:05:01 AM

...and you did good with it. Nuff said.

I agree. Let's not overcomplicate this. The bullet killed a deer and retained 96% of it's weight. The bullet and hunter did a good job. Congrats.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #23 on:** December 10, 2009, 07:41:46 AM »

I've no qualms of any one using a .223 on deer as I've killed quite a few deer myself with that cartridge using bolt actions and gas guns (ARs and Mini 14s). I do agree that a correct bullet should be used and bullet placement is even more critical. It is not a good choice if the cover is dense, the shooting will be fast and/or the tracking conditions are poor. In this case I believe jmayton was successful as bullet placement was perfect and the rifle ammuntion combined to give what is normally a very exlposive varmint bullet controlled expansion. His stated 3100 fps with that load of H4198 is quite optomistic given the 16" barrel of his M4. It was probably more like 2700-2800 fps and at whaever range the deer was had even less velocity. This provided good controlled expansion and penetration. As has been stated the deer was dead and recovered, jmayton is a happy successfull hunter so all is well. I would not hesitate to recomend the .223 for use on smaller deer under certain circumstances. As a "general" hunting cartridge i would not as there is little room for error.

BTW; I prefer the Winchester 64 gr SP at an actual 3000 fps out of my 20" AR with 9" twist. It also does well at 2925 fps out of the 10" twist Mini14 and 3100 out of my 22" barreled 9" twist bolt gun. However, for "general" deer hunting I still prefer the standard cartridges from .257 up through the .35 Remington with appropriate cast or C&C bullets.

Larry Gibson

josie wales · « **Reply #24 on:** December 10, 2009, 07:54:20 AM »

Most states here in America do not allow hunting deer with anything that is .22 caliber. It has to be bigger after all there is no replacement for dispacement. One picture I saw looks like the bullet blew up on impact no wonder there was no bullet found.The little 55 grain GK is not bonded so core separation is always a possibility. With a 160 or even a 100 grain bullet the mass will be there to insure a kill. I can also tell stories where a single #1 buckshot pellet killed deer. Is it that one pellet is so great or just luck that it hit the right place. I don't want to say what your doing is unethical but damn use the right gun for the hunt! The 55 grain GK is not (and I will say it again) IS NOT a big game bullet. It is a critter bullet ,good for varmits but I would just consider marginal for large eastern coyotes. For deer size animals .24 caliber would be the smallest I would consider. The 25's even better. I consider the 30-06 the best cartridge ever developed. I have used it from squirrels to Elk with great results on both and everything in between. Oh for squirrels paper patch a #1 buckshot with a few grains of Bullseye. Just dont shoot down!!

jmayton · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2009, 08:41:20 AM »

josie, I think you're getting the Blitzking and Gameking mixed up. The Gameking is designed as a medium/big game bullet in all calibers and weights. It's not one of those that is only good for varmints when you get small than 6mm. And secondly, I live in Texas and the rules for game animals simply state that it has to be centerfire so a .22 hornet is legal. I live in Llano county, purported to have the highest concentration of deer in the U.S. and we shoot a lot of deer around here. The two calibers used the most are the 22-250 and the .222. Most of our out-of-town and out-of-state hunters use whatever the latest shoulder-cannon on the market is at that time and they wound and lose a lot of deer. Us locals shoot them from our back porch with the little .22's. Finish our coffee and then go dress the deer.

And believe me, if I was wanting a critter bullet, a V-Max would probably be my first choice and then maybe a Blitzking or Dogtown or something along those lines. That's what they were designed to do.

The purpose of this thread was to show how well modern bullet construction works on medium game in a caliber that is not typically used on that type of game.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #26 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:15:48 AM »

Gain Josie whales what experiance do YOU have with this bullets performance on game?

chutesnreloads · « **Reply #27 on:** December 10, 2009, 01:38:00 PM »

Would'nt be suprised if there are more deer hit on the roads in LLano county than are shot even during deer season.Is it unethical to drive through that county considering the number of deer maimed on the roads?And one more time ,as said before, .223 is NOT the first choice for a deer cartridge and I haven't heard anyone suggest it is.

jmayton · « **Reply #28 on:** December 10, 2009, 03:26:12 PM »

chutes, when we moved here we counted over 50 dead deer on the road from Brady to Llano. Needless to say, we keep a close watch when driving at night.

pozoutdoors · « **Reply #29 on:** December 10, 2009, 03:57:41 PM »

That sounds like southern Iowa!! I don't ride my Harley after dark!!!! My wife totaled her car and my blazer in 15 days!!! Now I'm hoping she does as well with her shotgun!!