Author Topic: 24-Pdr. Flank Howitzers are on the Move. We Should Make One. (Read 2372 times)

seacoastartillery · « **on:** December 24, 2009, 11:46:17 AM »

The 24-Pdr. Flank Howitzer, M1844 has always fascinated me. Mike likes it too, mainly the carriage, which is very unique. I guess you can chalk that up to the old saying among military men; "Know your Enemy" and the more you know about the equipment they use, the better prepared you will be if things become heated. So, as an old Infantryman, I have always been curious about this particular howitzer, whose job it was to eliminate Infantrymen from a fort's walls by projecting cannister with extreme prejudice. While not a pretty gun, it has it's own businesslike persona. Emplaced in fortress bastions, demi-bastions and caponiers, these guns sit on a carriage which can be quickly handled and rapidly run out for the next shot.

I know we will be making one of these guns in the next few months, but neither one of us can decide on which scale. Maybe it would be smart to start small, very small, and create a new Nano Cannon, and revive the old Nano Mortar and Cannon thread for the second time from December of 2006. When some members see how easy it is to produce one of these little guys, maybe that will inspire more members to give cannon making a try. The photos below illustrate our fascination with the M1844 just a bit.

Merry Christmas from Seacoast Artillery Company,

Mike and Tracy

Emplacing an original 24-Pdr. Flank Howitzer in a river-front casemate at Fort Knox in Maine. Four of these were recently refurbished and returned to the fort. Naval Landing Parties take note!!

One of these guns guards the demi-lune from a small bastion which can sweep the gorge wall, and cover an extensive moat as well, at Fort Pulaski east of Savannah, Georgia.

Here's another one at Fort Alcatraz on the old Penitentiary island of the same name. If you transfer this image to a folder on your computer, you can enlarge it and see that this particular howitzer had a very nasty load of canister which totaled 48 balls, each between 1.32" and 1.35" diameter. The sign in this photo diagrams the packing of the balls in this fearsome munition. We checked and found that Gibbon's, The Artillerist's Manual lists this load and sizes of balls.

I was sick of drawing the last 7" Brooke drawing, the one of the very complex platform, the other day, so I began doodling and came up with a full-size 24 Pdr. Canister ball layer, one of four such layers in each Canister Round. You can see how the next layer would fit just like the ball bearing in the photo which is approx. the correct size. The bore size of these guns was 5.82 Inches and the charge of two full pounds of powder blew 21 pounds of cast iron balls out in a devastating shotgun pattern.

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2009, 12:07:49 PM »

So are you going to publish plans for this? AOP doesn't list this gun amongst their folios.

navygunner · « **Reply #2 on:** December 24, 2009, 12:14:09 PM »

HMMMMMMMM!!! I'm attending they Civil War reenactment at Fort Knox, Maine next July with the USNLP. Maybe i'll stay behind and guard the museum during the assault LOL.

NG

RocklockI · « **Reply #3 on:** December 24, 2009, 12:15:46 PM »

Sweet!

ETA NavyGunner , yea , as soon as you are off loaded and expected to do something ridiculous ....my best guess would be to bolt like a friggin maniac ...without a cause ! Left , right anywhere but where the masses are .

I dont think the commies had them ,but Uhgg !!!!! As a radio operater .....you must not only stick with the mass .... ... ... you must stay with the head of the mass .... (some butter bar who couldnt find his butt with both hands) .

Other than responsibility , bolt one way or the other .......don't be in the center of the bullseye !!!

Flank Howies

....friggin murder ,straight up !

Gary

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** December 24, 2009, 01:49:44 PM »

My Fort Pulaski 24 PDR Flank Howitzer photographed in 1989 looks different than your Fort Pulaski 24 PDR Flank Howitzer!

As to the scale to build these guns. If you are building for your personal enjoyment, then you should build to what ever scale brings you personal enjoyment.

If you are going to build these guns for inclusion in the series of magnificent replica's that you build, then indeed keep faithful to that detail. It would be fitting to display the series in the the same scale and would generate additional sales. The comparison in same scale can only ehance the appreciation of how big some of these gun were.

Is the 24 PDR Field Howtzer the same tube on a field carriage?

Wonder if AOP has that drawing?

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #5 on:** December 24, 2009, 06:31:42 PM »

George, We are going to order the correct drawings from the Maryland Silver Company, see the stickies under GBO Sponsors and Blackpowder cannons and link list, because AOP does not have this one. Anyone interested can do the same.

My warning for Naval Landing Parties was just for you, Navygunner. If you must leave the whaleboat and participate in the assault, plan your route well and pick a very careful path around that huge reddish colored 'Rockmount' on the River side. If you go up any portion of that you'll be under the Flank howitzers located in the central bastion, NOT a good place to be! I would run between blasts of the 10" Rodmans any day before I would face those 24 Pdr. Flank Howitzers! Good luck!

Quote from: RocklockI on December 24, 2009, 12:15:46 PM

Sweet!

Flank Howies ....friggin murder ,straight up !

Gary

   Listen to this man, he's correct occasionally and he knows what he's talking about on this topic!

   Double D, The bronze 24 Pdr. field howitzer tube on the temporary, concrete, replica carriage was gone by the time we got there in 2003. They replaced it with an original 24 Pdr. iron tube on an authentic, flank howitzer carriage. We are thinking about building a nano version now and maybe a larger one at some future date. After those are built, we will see if there is any interest in them.

   From DD: "Is the 24 PDR Field Howitzer the same tube on a field carriage?" In your example, yes, but the 24Pdr. Flank Howitzer, M1844, is a totally different animal only produced in quantity with an iron tube. Very nice pics, Thanks DD.

   That "Nano Cannon" thread started by Cu_Cannon in Dec. of 2006 is a remarkable one and it really needs reviving. We will do that early next week with the start of this howitzer build.

T&M

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2009, 07:03:21 PM »

I found the answer while going through the Mordecai E-Book.

The carriage was wood.

I should have taken a close up of the makers mark...probably Paulsens or Steen.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #7 on:** December 24, 2009, 08:38:05 PM »

Double D, I was looking at those voids/dents on your second photo just behind the interior leading edge of the left cheek. They looked like voids that you see in some molded concrete products, but upon enlargement, they look more like claw-hammer dents on a wood surface.

I know that the Paulsen Bros. made the Flank Howitzer carriage they have at the Caponier Museum at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York, but I don't know about that one at Ft. Pulaski. Could be, or maybe Steen?

T&M

Terry C. · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2009, 04:16:28 AM »

I can't be sure, and the photos don't show much detail, but a close up (down on my knees) inspection of these fragments at Fort Clinch lead me to believe they are from a destroyed iron 24-pounder Flank Howitzer.

Each of the five bastions has embrasures for 4 Flank Howizers.

Lots of cannons were destroyed at Fort clinch (probably because of the way it flip-flopped between Union amd Confederate occupation). Once upon a time the grounds (and the waters behind the fort) were littered with cannon framents, now they are a rare find.

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2009, 06:41:15 AM »

So does the bronze field 24 PDR Howitzer have the same dimensions as the Iron Siege and garrison 24 PDR Howitzer ? Is the only difference between the two the metal? What are the differences?

Terry C. · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2009, 07:30:20 AM »

Not sure of the exact dimensional differences (if any) but the 1841 bronze and 1844 iron guns are nearly identical in general appearance.

I've never found any reference to bronze howitzers at Fort Clinch. They were probably all iron, given the late construction of the fort (it was never completely finished).

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2009, 07:31:50 AM »

Quote from: Double D on December 25, 2009, 06:41:15 AM

So does the bronze field 24 PDR Howitzer have the same dimensions as the Iron Siege and garrison 24 PDR Howitzer ? Is the only difference between the two the metal? What are the differences?

Double D, I can give you several key dimensions on the siege and garrison howitzer, but we still don't have a good dimensional field artillery book, so I can't help you on the 24 pdr. field howitzer. I will amend this posting when I look up those six dims.

OAL 69"
Basering Dia. 13.8"
Dia. First Reinforce just ahead of Basering 13.2"
Rimbase Dia. 6.62"
largest Dia. of Chase 11.6"
Muzzle Dia. 11.7"

T&M

Terry C. · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2009, 07:34:51 AM »

BTW: Does anybody know what happened to cwartillery.org?

Double D · « **Reply #13 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:02:23 AM »

Was CWArtillery.org Peter Jorgersen's operation? He did pass away this year.

Comparison between 24 PDR field and garrison-seige howitzers of 1844. Sounds like we need to get the GBO Archivist on the job! Merry Christmas Cannonmn!

Terry C. · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:32:12 AM »

I forgot to mention that at one time they had some of the original mounts in the bastions, some with the carriages in place (no guns). I was fascinated at the geared elevator screw mechanism on the otherwise primitive-looking carriage.

After a brief stint with some really bad ornamental barrels, these have been long since removed.

Last I saw of these carriages, about three decades ago, they were stacked rather unceremoniously in a storage room. I no longer have access to such areas, everyone I knew from that time is either retired and moved away, or dead. Where they are now is anyone's guess.

Spuddy · « **Reply #15 on:** December 25, 2009, 02:46:52 PM »

M&T
"After those are built, we will see if there is any interest in them."
I have interest now. The Fort Knox photo is wicked cool

Tim

GGaskill · « **Reply #16 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:31:18 PM »

Does anybody know what happened to cwartillery.org?

I once tried emailing the owner of cwartillery.org about something that needed to be corrected and never got a response. I don't think it had anything to do with Jorgensen's properties; the Civil War News website is still online.

My guess is the web hosting fees have not been paid so the host has turned it off.

The url is still active, according to Network Solutions.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #17 on:** December 26, 2009, 06:53:04 AM »

It's gone! That's a shame, because it was an easy access reference site; the "Encyclopedia of Civil War Artillery" had a date given for the last update, and while I don't remember the exact year, the last update was quite some time ago.

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2009, 02:00:21 PM »

Maybe someone would care to contact the author and ask what is going on.

Administrative Contact :
      TenBrink, Charles
      c-tenbrink@UCHICAGO.EDU
      5401 Ridgewood Court #2
      Chicago,, IL 60615
      US
      Phone: (773) 288-3351

(above from Network Solutions)

cwartillery.org is no more but its content has been added to another site. See this thread for more details.

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2010, 06:28:24 PM »

Here is the explanation for the bronze 24 PDR at Fort Pulaski in 1989.

Quote

Mr. Dickens,

I'm sorry for the delay in writing back to you. It was a doozy of aquestion for me for I've only been here a few months. Here's what I was able to find out for you. You certainly are correct that all 24-pdr field howitzers, m1844 were madeo f bronze and all 24-pdr flank defense howitzers, m1844 were made of iron.The weapon in the pictures you sent is a 12-pdr, m1841 bronze field howitzer and not a 24-pdr flank defense howitzer, m1844. It appears to be the park's old reproduction 12-pdr field howitzer made by the Adirondack Machine Corp. We're not exactly sure of the year the howitzer was purchased because the company's records were destroyed in a fire, and we could find no NPS documentation. We're also not sure why a 12-pdr waslo cated in the Bastion. The 24-pdr iron flank howitzer currently in the NW Bastion is a reproduction from South Bend Replicas. We're also not sure when it was purchased. In case you were curious, the flank howitzer in the SW Bastion on the other end of the fort is an original, cast in 1864 at Seyfert,McManus & Co. of Reading, PA. Hope that answers your questions. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have further inquiries.

-Joel
Joel Cadoff
U.S. PARK RANGER
FORT PULASKI NATIONAL MONUMENT
Division of Interpretation & Visitor Services

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2010, 07:31:01 PM »

Thanks Double D, that explains a lot about what we saw in 2002, 2005 and 2007 at Fort Pulaski, our favorite fort, Gee, can you tell? I think I saw that Iron Flank Howitzer tube on the South Bend Replicas website, and the Paulson brothers recently sold one from their collection. They built the Casemate carriage which supports the Flank Howitzer in the Fort Hamilton Caponier Museum in Brooklyn, NY. It's amazing how much detailed information the NPS organization has and the state organizations too. The fort historian at the State of North Carolina facility at Fort Fisher, Kure Beach, North Carolina was particularly helpful to us when we studied the 150 Pdr. Armstrong Rifle in 2006. All you have to do is ask.

Tracy and Mike