Combustible paper cartridges

[AtlLaw]

Well, I made some!   

After going back through all the related posts made here since the forum started, I felt I had learned enough to give it a try.  So I bought a jug of the "Specracide Stump Remover" from Lowe's and a pack of cigarette papers from one of the local convenience stores.

Getting the papers was almost tramatic!     Try to picture this old, long haired hippy type standing at the register of a crowded convenience store, discussing the relative merits of the different varieties of the "Joker" brand of rolling papers, all the while bemoaning the fact that they didn't have any of the tried and true ZigZag brand in stock.  Add to that the fact that the young, and rather loud, clerk was apparently very, dare I say intimately, familiar with required qualities of the object of this discussion and I'm supprised we didn't get busted!   

As if that weren't enough, Kathie, who is not known for being the trusting type where I'm concerned, saw the papers on the kitchen counter and is now convinced I'm smoking down in my man cave...   Tobacco that is!    (Still trying to quit after 50 years...    )

Be that as it may, after the chemical mixing, paper soaking and paper drying was done, I thought I'd see how combustible combustible was.     A touch of the match and the paper rapidly, flamelessly and very smokingly burned up to a fine black ash.

Okay, not quite what I'd expected.  I sorta kinda thought the paper would disappear in more of a flash.  You know, like the flash paper the numbers runners used back in the day... Y'all do remember that don't ya?     Or am I dateing myself again...   

Anyway, having cut the papers in half before soaking them, I rolled them into a tube on an appropriately sized dowel, glued the long end, put some glue on one of the tip ends and stuck a ball in!  Worked perfectly!

Now, when I'm ready to go shooting I'll charge the tube and seal the remaining tip end.  I figure I can crease two sides and fold the end over on itself, glueing it down.  I 'spose I could just twist the end but the folds would look better.   

If the wx holds I may actually have a chance to try some this weekend!   

[bedbugbilly]

AtlLaw - Got a question for ya.  I'm guessing that you are shooting .44 cal.?  I've been thinking about playing with making some combustible cartridges . . . but . . . for my .36 Colts and Remington (right now, all I have is .36 cal. pistols - 5 of 'em).  I've been a "reformed smoker" for too many years to remember the things I'm thinking about.  At one time (many, many years ago) there was a company that made a cigarette machine for making your own and you could buy the paper tubes already made up, either with a filter or without.  I'm thinking the machine was possibly called a "Tops" but I may be wrong.  I don't know anyone who smokes where I'm at now and basically, I am too cheap to buy a pack for the information I need.     Do you know, or does anyone out there know, what diameter these pre-made cigarette tubes are (if they still make them) or for that matter, the diameter of a cigarette?  I'm thinking that they would be close to a .36 and possibly could work, but . . . then again maybe I'm all wet.  It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong!     If they were, it would be a big help as it would save time "rolling" the cartridge.  Thanks for any info anyone can provide - greatly appreciated!   I hope your experience is a successful one with the cartridges! 

[AtlLaw]

Hey Billy!
Actually I have a 36 and a 44.  The cartridges I made were for the 36.

I had a cigarette rolling machine 'bout 50 years ago.  But it didn't use pre-rolled papers.  Seems to me I saw something like you're talking about, but it was also long ago.   

And even if you found some they'd proably be more expensive then what effort you saved rolling your own.  And I don't know how those pre-rolled papers would survive nitrating.   

Finally,    since I quit smoking there isn't a cigarette around here for me to measure.  I think they are a good bit bigger around then the 36's chambers though.

Think I'll make some 44's!   

[Cowpox]

After 50 years, I too am trying to quit.

Alas, I still smoke, and make my own smokes with an injector machine.

I think you will find the pre-made tubes will be too small for .36, but might be worth a try for .31.

Here is the online store where I buy the needed products.  If nothing else, it would be a cheap place to buy rolling papers (2400 at a time).

http://www.ryocigarette.com/ 

Cigarette paper is as good as any you can find nowdays, but I haven't been able to make paper cartridges that are truely consumable since the early seventys, when it became impossible to find the very thin, almost transparent paper they used to call onion skin.

Now it is a good idea to check each chamber with a dental pick before reloading, because it is not uncommon to find large chunks of unburned paper that like to plug the flash hole.

Either that, or get a piece of heavy guitar or piano string, and make a long, curved nipple pick to run into each nipple before capping.


Both methods will omit dry fires caused by paper that remains in the chamber.

[jlchucker]

Long ago, I used to make up some rather frail combustible cartridges for my 44 revolver. I used ZigZag, but didn't soak it in anything first.  I rolled it around a piece of dowel that I tapered down, and folded it at the bottom, gluing it with some white paper paste.  The paste, as I recall, was the sort that kids used to see in kintergarten, back in the day.  Then I poured a flask-measured charge of either holy black or pyrodex in the little paper cone, put a round ball on top, and folded the paper over the ball, pasteing it in place. I carried these around in a little matchbox--the smaller size that wooden matches come in.  I could get about 5 in one, as I recall.  The paper over the ball would tear while being rammed into the cylinder, but not enough to lose any powder.  I used RWS, CCI, and Remington caps, and never had ignition problems shooting these cartridges. I lubed over the ball after ramming, much as you would if you loaded loose.

[AtlLaw]

Wow!     Thanks for the link there Pox!  After all this time I still don't think to do an IN search... 

Is it a fact that they don't sell onion skin paper anymore?  I was thinking of trying some, even though the cigarette papers are a good size for the 36 or 44 when cut in half.  And, the truth be known, as much as I'm going to get a chance to shoot, I may just stay with the single packs!   

I carried these around in a little matchbox--the smaller size that wooden matches come in.  I could get about 5 in one, as I recall.

Funny you should mention that J'.     I was thinkin about how to carry these "bullets."  I decided to wrap 5 or 6 in foil.  I think I'll try to take some pictures of the whole process just for grins!   

[Cowpox]

The stores around here act like they never heard of onin skin, so I assumed it was unavailable.

Time for me to kick myself for not doing a google for it.

This is the first link I checked.  http://www.thepapermillstore.com/onion-skin-paper 

They sell a rather large lot for about 25 bucks, so I tried eBay, and there was even a couple of listings on there.

A little more searching, and maybe another place can be found for more suitable amounts ?

[Cowpox]

By your replies, I notice you are having trouble deciding how to store and carry your paper cartridges.

In the begining, I went so far as to buy tag board, and made boxes to put them in.  They proved to be to fragile for anything but storage.

Then I found the MTM SafeGuard ammo boxes.

I use the ones for 10mm - 45 ACP, and they work well for both .36 and .44, with the bullet up.

For pocket carry, I made wood blocks similar to the ones Sam Colt sold paper cartridges in.

Cut 1x2 (3/4 x 1 1/2) birch boards in lengths that will allow 6, half inch holes to be drilled in from the side.  Then cut a half inch piece that will act as a cover for the holes.   Put a small brass hinge on one end, and a jewlery box catch on the other end.

They are bulky, but they will let you carry a few reloads comfortably in your coat pocket.

[jlchucker]

Wow!     Thanks for the link there Pox!  After all this time I still don't think to do an IN search... 

Is it a fact that they don't sell onion skin paper anymore?  I was thinking of trying some, even though the cigarette papers are a good size for the 36 or 44 when cut in half.  And, the truth be known, as much as I'm going to get a chance to shoot, I may just stay with the single packs!   

I carried these around in a little matchbox--the smaller size that wooden matches come in.  I could get about 5 in one, as I recall.

Funny you should mention that J'.     I was thinkin about how to carry these "bullets."  I decided to wrap 5 or 6 in foil.  I think I'll try to take some pictures of the whole process just for grins!   

Atlaw, I did wrap mine in tinfoil before putting them in the matchbox. Without looking in my closet to see if I still have my old repro Civil War capbox, I think that one of those capboxes would carry two little matchboxes--good for 10 or 12 rounds.  I used a standard, inline brass capper, and squeezed borebutter over the loaded cylinders.  I think it was 5 rounds per box because I rarely loaded my Remmie with 6--for safety.  The cigarette paper pretty much completely burned away upon firing.  I never soaked those cigarette papers in anything.  They ignite pretty good the way they are. I didn't even have to cut the cigarette papers in half, either.  Just folded the narrow end of my cone over and glued it.  When you ram a cartridge into the cylinder, that cigarette paper will break open under the ball anyway--within the cylinder.  Inside it would be, if you could see it, loose powder and a torn piece of cartridge, under the ball.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks for the info - it's appreciated!  I've read some threads where fellas have made 'em out of cigarette papers but don't nitrate and they've seemed to work fine.  I guess it would all depend on how the end was sealed that went into the chamber first - it it wasn't heavy with paper, a cap should blow through it and ignite the powder. At any rate, I sure appreciate the information and the posts on this thread.  I smiled when I heard the reference to "onion skin paper" - I had a hard enough time a while back in finding "carbon paper".  The next thing you know we'll be talking about "typewriters" (remember those?).  Are we sounding old or what?  I guess it's not hard to "date" yourself anymore!     Thanks again for the info!

[AtlLaw]

Here's the finished product!

The cartridges are made, slipped butt first into the heavy paper container I made, wrapped in aluminum foil and covered with a label copied (somewhat) from originals.  The string is under the lable so when I'm ready to use them I pull the string to open the hopefully somewhat waterproof package.

A lot of work, but what they heck... I think they look pretty cool. 

[Graybeard]

Richard ole friend you really need to get a hobby, you got waay too much time on yer hands. 

[lrrice]

Cool boxes.

I shoot lubed conicals in my remington.  Just fold ocb cigarette papers like miniature flat paper drinking cups, open it up, pour in the powder, set the bullet in and mash the paper and bee's wax lube together.  Ive never treated the paper with anything and it seems to burn up completely.  never have come up with a good way to carry them for any distance, an altoids box with quilt batting works pretty good.

[jlchucker]

Cool boxes.

I shoot lubed conicals in my remington.  Just fold ocb cigarette papers like miniature flat paper drinking cups, open it up, pour in the powder, set the bullet in and mash the paper and bee's wax lube together.  Ive never treated the paper with anything and it seems to burn up completely.  never have come up with a good way to carry them for any distance, an altoids box with quilt batting works pretty good.

That's pretty much the way I had always done it.  I've carried them around for quite a while, 5 to a matchbox, but wrapped in a little  packet of aluminum foil before putting them into the box.  I never thought of an altoids box.  You could probably get a few more rounds in there.  Wrap them in foil in little packets of 5 first, then they'd probably fit tight enough so as not to move around and get damaged before you got around to loading them.

[AtlLaw]

wrapped in a little  packet of aluminum foil before putting them into the box.

The moisture proof issue got my attention and I been givin it sum more thought!     After placing the loaded cartridges in the little packet I made for them, I wrap them in foil like you do.  After the "pull to open" string is placed of course!     Then the label goes over the foil folds.  I figgered that would make the whole packet pretty waterproof.   

But I ain't for sure... So I made a couple of decisions.  first, I'm gonna make a ball sized top for the cartridge packet.  It won't make it anymore moisture proof, but it will make the final package more square and pretty.  A major factor if they gonna be able to be stored for awhie!   

Now, secondly and more concerned with the moisture issue... How about waxed paper!     I can glue the pull string to a piece of waxed paper, wrap the packet of combustable cat-ridges with it, seal the folds with beeswax, wrap the whole she-bang with foil then stick on the label sealing the foil folds!   

I tell ya what boys... sometimes I amaze my own darn self... 

[Cornbelt]

You just reminded me of some combustable ctgs I rolled last summer, or was it summer before last? I dunno. I plum forgot till I read this post. And I'll have to go look for 'em, 'cause I forgot that, too. But I had been reading about bird intestines and such, so I tried skin. Had a good sunburn and it was peeling off in sheets. Made real good looking loads for my .31 and fit nicely in a small match box. Durned if I remember where I put it.
    But would someone fill me in on how to nitrate it for combustion? I know I didn't do that. And if I get another sunburn...

[Pat/Rick]

Cigarette papaers are already nitrated. Instead of onion skin paper I have heard of folks using tracing paper. read somewhere about how to nitrate papers but I don't remember where the link is.

[AtlLaw]

I had been reading about bird intestines and such, so I tried skin. Had a good sunburn and it was peeling off in sheets.  But would someone fill me in on how to nitrate it for combustion? I know I didn't do that. And if I get another sunburn...

Hummmmmm...     Don't know how I missed this post.     I'm usually ready to give my opinion and share my vast experience in such matters.   

First, with regard to bird intestines.  It is my understanding that it was preferred by the british for musketry.  So much so that, during the Revolution and War of 1812, they imported and released large numbers of Starlings and English Sparrows in order to have the raw material for their cartridges readily available.  And since these birds are still considered a pest and unprotected in most states, we still have a ready supply of this commodity.

Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber,    I don't believe it would be suitable for use in a C&B revolver.  You see, being tissue it doesn't lend itself to nitrating and combustablity.  It did however, make a great lubricating wad.  Ergo, the soldier would bite off the end of a bird gut cartridge, pour the powder down the barrel and then ram home the bird gut (more properly called "Gut, Bird" in military speak) and round ball.

The benefits of this "Gut, Bird" Ordinance, or GBO or sometimes just GB, were numerous.  Probably the foremost of which was the fact that the soldier didn't have to spit out the portion of the cartridge he bit off.  Instead he would chew up and swallow the intestine, which actually became a major portion of the british soldier's diet.  This practice, considering the cleaning of the gut before loading was minimal, also explains the notable lack of fraternization between our american girls and the british soldiers. 

Another interesting tidbit is that, should the soldier, in the heat of battle, bite to far down the GBO round and into the powder charge, it became impossible for him to chew the piece of GBO.  Hence the origin of the old saying that "he bit off more then he could chew." 

More to follow!   

[AtlLaw]

Cigarette papaers are already nitrated. ... read somewhere about how to nitrate papers but I don't remember where the link is.

Well, before I get any further into substitutes for cigarette papers   , when it comes to nitrating, I just disolve stump remover in water until the water can't hold any more in solution, then I soak the papers for a bit.  I believe I got that information right here on this forum... 

[Pat/Rick]

Bird gut, very interesting I have never heard of that before. I'll need to research that more, sounds interesting. Is there a particular stump remover that is better than others? Or do you just go by nitrate(s) percentage? I did not know about that either. have only ben registered on this site for a couple of days and have learned LOTS! What fun!

[AtlLaw]

have only ben registered on this site for a couple of days and have learned LOTS! What fun!

Well, GBO in general is about the best place they is, and this forum is a blessing to me!  I'm new to C&B Revolver shooting but it is fast becomeing my favorite passtime!     I feel like Josie Wales every time I strap on my Army/Navy/Dragoon!   

BTW, is u Pat or Rick or that good ol' Irish boy Patrick?      

Bird gut, very interesting I have never heard of that before. I'll need to research that more,

I doubt if you'll find much on Gut, Bird Ordinance, "GBO," in you normal research channels.  Probably best to try to reconstruct the old methods based on my outline.  Personally, I would take a little more time in the preperation of the gut then the "sling 'em empty" method that was prevelant during the Revolution.  My preference would be that they be at least "stump whipped" although they are considerably more fragile then the chit-lins cleaned this way and more care must be used.  Additionally, I would apply a little "Texas Pete" hot sauce to the end that was to be bitten off.   

Is there a particular stump remover that is better than others? Or do you just go by nitrate(s) percentage? I did not know about that either.

I got mine at Lowe's I think.  As I remember they are all pretty much 100% Potassium Nitrate.

[Pat/Rick]

Patrick, the division is a satiracal view of the duality of man,( two names,one for each of us). Scots actually. more German than anything else, American before all others. Yessiree, if hot sauce will help C-rats , it would do wonders for bird guts     Good to know about the stump killer.Thanks.  Josey Wales packs alot of iron don't he!Good thing he didn't fall off that ferry! LOL!

[AtlLaw]

the division is a satiracal view of the duality of man,

   huh?

(two names,one for each of us).

Oh!  I get it!  Like Schizophrenia type psychosis!     same same d^#@/head or a&*/hole.   

if hot sauce will help C-rats ,

Heck...    I always liked C's the way they was... 

[Pat/Rick]

   

[Cornbelt]

 About the nitrate stump remover, If it's Lowes, it will be "Spectracide".
  If it's Menards, it will be "Green Lightning".
  If it's Rural King, don't buy it, 'cause it is something else entirely.
 
  And if you're looking for guts, you can get 'em from "sausagemaker.com".
 The sheep guts are about slim-jim size.
  Beef bungs are 4" diameter (in case you've got a revolving cannon).

[Pat/Rick]

Revolving cannon! I know they made 'em but the closest thing I have seen to onelately was built by a machinist/gunsmith in Mattawa, WA. He builds his own BP guns all the way from spanish matchlock, and Ferguson rifle,twist barrels, to revolvers. I was invited to view his collection. VERY impressive! He has revolvers he has built, one each example that I know of and seen first hand that are .50, .75, and 1 inch!!!! The cylinder for the 1inch revolver  is about 5 or 6" in diameter and four shot. He has built a few cannon as well. An elderly gentlmen who says "if ya can't buy 'em ya gotta build em"! He used to give talks to schools until they came up with the no guns at schol crap. I would like to get back up there and see if I can get pictures. Maybe my BIL can get some, he lives close to him. I hate to think what will become of his collection. He is all alone. His is the only residence that has not been broke into by the "migrant farm workers" and MS 13 that live in the area. I understand that some folks thinks he's crazy. I am of the opinion that he is far from it.

[flmason]

wrapped in a little  packet of aluminum foil before putting them into the box.

The moisture proof issue got my attention and I been givin it sum more thought!     After placing the loaded cartridges in the little packet I made for them, I wrap them in foil like you do.  After the "pull to open" string is placed of course!     Then the label goes over the foil folds.  I figgered that would make the whole packet pretty waterproof.   

But I ain't for sure... So I made a couple of decisions.  first, I'm gonna make a ball sized top for the cartridge packet.  It won't make it anymore moisture proof, but it will make the final package more square and pretty.  A major factor if they gonna be able to be stored for awhie!   

Now, secondly and more concerned with the moisture issue... How about waxed paper!     I can glue the pull string to a piece of waxed paper, wrap the packet of combustable cat-ridges with it, seal the folds with beeswax, wrap the whole she-bang with foil then stick on the label sealing the foil folds!   

I tell ya what boys... sometimes I amaze my own darn self... 

Not to be irreverent, but wouldn't a ziplock sandwich baggie work? Or perhaps just a screw top vitamin jar like the kind Centrum comes in? Looks to me like the container Crystal Lite drink mix comes in would work great too. Especially the new flatter style, rather than the older cyndrilical type.

Granted, it has no "vintage appeal" what so ever.

[AtlLaw]

... ziplock sandwich baggie ... a screw top vitamin jar ... the container Crystal Lite drink mix comes in ...

heratic...    You gotta ask yo-sef, WWJWD?   

[coyotejoe]

Richard, with all this makin' of catriges have you found time to actually shoot any?

[AtlLaw]

Nope... Ain't been to the range in months...    Always Honey-do's on the weekend and when I do get some free time I just want relax.  Usually I sit in the man cave, drink likker, smoke cigaretts and play with explosives...