Remington 788 likely NOT to Make the Cut.

[Siskiyou]

The rifle is accurate and I have put a lot of effort in it recently in the load development department and making trips to the range.  I have come up with two loads suitable for deer and they might do for bear under the right circumstances. 

While I loaded some 100-grain and 105 grain loads for it in the past, I had settled on the 80-grain bullet for varmints.  I have two boxes of 105-grain Speer Spitzers, loaded in unfired WW cases ready to go in the fall.  I had re-sighted the rifle from 80-grain bullets to the 105 grain load.  I have been practicing at 100 and 200 yards.

A couple weeks ago the rifle jammed on me, and I had to drop the magazine to remove the live round out of the rifle.  The magazine follower had come out of the magazine and the spring was escaping.  I was not able to get it together without interrupting my shoot.  I just put it in my shooting bag and put it back together at home later.

Unlike my other bolt action rifles I find the 788 a pain to single load. 

I have a second Remington factory magazine for it.  Yesterday I left the above mention magazine at home and took the new old one to the range.  It has not been used but is about twenty years old.  Part of my range session is to make sure my handloads and factory ammunition feed from the magazine.  Three different times the bolt failed to pick up a round when I closed the bolt.  Because of its designed closing the action is not as smooth when compared to my other bolt action rifles, or my Marlin 30-30.

In the last few years I have taken bucks with a five different rifles.  All of those rifle reliable feed rounds from the magazine and are far easier to single feed than the Remington 788.

I have fed more rounds into the 788 in the last few weeks than I have in the recent past.  Again a key part of the range work was to make sure it was feeding ammunition from the magazine. 

The removable 788 magazine does not come close to the quality of the magazines I have for my Savage 110CL or even the magazines for the Remington 760.
In the past I have sang the phrase of the 788 but the magazine problem is going to keep this rifle locked up come deer season.  I want to be sure of a follow-up shot if needed on a deer or bear.

I am not going to dump the rifle; I will still seek Mr. Coyote and other critters with it.  It is chambered for the 243 and just the other day I loaded 20+ rounds with 80-grain Winchester softpoints.  I already had 80-grain Speer bullets loaded.  With a near maximum load of H414 it shoots about 8-inches higher than the 105 grain load, but the windage is the same.

A week ago I went into a sporting goods store with the intent of buying some 80-grain Hornady GMX bullets for the rifle.  Having enough money in my pocket for one box of bullets I defaulted to 130-grain GMX bullets for the 270 Winchester, because I know I can depend on those rifles.

I still have a good supply of 80-grain Hot-Cor bullets, 80-grain Nosler Solid Base, and a box of one thousand WW 80-grain softpoints.  As I recall I paid less than fifty dollars for the bulk Winchester soft points.  I went on line and checked on the current price for those thousand bullets, $184.99.

After deer season I will re-sight the scope in for the 80-grain Winchester softpoints.  I can still get a lot of enjoyment out of the rifle.  I will be on the lookout for some thin metal I can cut to fit in the bottom of the magazine under the spring.  I am hoping that will give the spring a little more lift.  The 788 was a Remington cost cutting rifle and the magazine is a product of that concept.  I had planned on taking the 788 hunting this fall but its spot in the line-up will be filled by another.

I had the Savage 110CL in 270 Winchester with me at the range.  I fired it for the first hour or so.  I loaded it in the same manner as I did the 788.  I would pull the magazine and put one, two or more rounds in it and feed the chamber from the magazine.  There were no failures to feed with the Savage.  The Savage is about ten years older than the 788 and the two magazines I have are trouble free.

The reason behind this post is a little guilt trip.  I have had the 788 for a long time and it has been a functional rifle the majority of the time.  It has been primarily used for varmints and target.  Not fast action deer hunting in brush, oak and pine stands.  I have posted the good in the past, and now I am posting a current issue.  I could tell the potential buyer to look at the magazine that comes with the rifle, but I cannot indentify a problem looking at my two magazines.  I will try a thin spacer in the bottom of the magazine below the spring to increase spring pressure.

[huntswithdogs]

I've got 2 mags for my 788 also. I have had the issue that you're referring to, but after some thought and trial and error, I found out my problem was me. I've been used to the mag spring straightening out my lack of attention when loading up rounds. On mine ,if the base of the rounds are down into the mag the pointy end up and not laying flat, the bolt will not bring them out. It(the bolt) will slide over the round , pushing the shell down. It's like this on both mags. Cheap design or about wore out? I don't know, but if I get them in right, it'll feed 'em just fine.

I gotta agree with on loading one of these singleshot! It'll make ya say thangs that'll melt paint!

HWD

[Siskiyou]

Huntswithdog:  Thanks for your response.

You have me thinking a little bit with the frustrating feeding problem.  I will pull three cases out of the discard can, drill a hole in the side of the cases to help identify them as dummy rounds, and mark them with red magic marker.  I will de-prime and full length resize the cases and seat a bullet in each.

I will use the dummy rounds to practice loading the magazine and chambering rounds.  In general I slide the loaded round base first into the back of the magazine and then pushing the round down to make sure it is flat.  When shooting from the bench I may not have been consistent when loading the magazine.

I believe the first magazine came apart when the bolt missed the rim and caught the case in the body.   As the bolt moved forward the cartridge cocked upward with the base deeper into the magazine body.  This pushed the follower forward where the tits on each side were able to escape the magazine body.  The base of the case needs to drop about ¼ inch to allow the escape. 

A side benefit is the activity will smooth up the action.

When I hunt with a rifle with a removable magazine I carry the spare in a pouch.  I am wondering if the rounds in these magazines will maintain position or shift.  It high quality magazines the rounds do not shift.

[Siskiyou]

788 Feed Test

I assembled three dummy 243 Winchester case after full length resizing and drilling a hole in the side of the cases.  The primer pocket was left empty and red magic marker was used on the side of the cases.  I seated a Winchester softpoint in the cases.  After this testing is completed I will hang on to the dummy rounds for future use.


The plan test was rather simple, load the magazine with the three dummy rounds and feed from the magazine to the chamber, ejecting the chambered case.  Repeat until thirty cycles have been completed and record the results.

Magazine #1 is the Remington factory original which came with the rifle.  I purchased the rifle new.  I have other rifles I prefer for deer hunting, and the last time I carried the M788 deer hunting was the fall of 1995.  I have never cared for the stamped metal M788 magazine.  It is slow to load compared to other centerfire magazines I have.  I used the rifle for some varmint hunting and I did experience a feeding problem once and while.  But it never spoiled a hunt.

I did some deer hunting using my mountain bike in 1995 and I carried the M788 in case I took a fall.  I did not want to risk breaking one of my other rifles if I took a fall.

Magazine #1 functioned properly for the first 11 cycles.  On the 12th cycle the bolt missed the rim and caught the case about an inch up from the rim.  The pressure of the bolt on the rim at that point pushed the rear of the case with cartridge follower depressing in the rear and moving forward at the same time.  The follower moved forward allowing the two retaining points to exit the assembly slots and the magazine came apart.

Magazine#1 was re-assembled and the testing was continued.   In the next 18 cycles there were four failures to pickup and feed a case.
Magazine #2 is a Remington factory after market magazine labeled 243 WIN.  I purchased it new in a sealed package.  A local shop special ordered it for me.
Magazine #2 experienced six failures in the thirty cycle test.  The first failure was very similar to the dissemble failure with Magazine #1.  The bolt caught the case about an inch in front of the rim and the rear of the case was forced down into the magazine, in this case forward motion was stopped.

Magazine loading procedure was done in a manner that should have not caused any failure.  The M788 magazine is designed to hold three rounds in the 243 Winchester.  The top of the magazine has case retention lips with a slot just wide enough to catch the rim of a case at the rear of the magazine.  I was careful in the loading process to make sure the cartridges were seated to the rear.

I noticed in some instances that when I fed the top round off the second or third round would more forward slightly.  The majority of failure to catch the rim was with the second cartridge.  Most failures to feed were cleared by removing the magazine in allowing the round to drop out.

I was careful in loading the magazine, sliding the round in the head towards the rear and then push the round to the back where the rim engaged the slot in the magazine lips.  The loaded rounds are not flat in the magazine; there is an angle of a few degrees upward from the base to the tip common in both magazines.  When closing the bolt on a loaded magazine without engaging a round the top cartridge must be depressed.

Follow the scenario.  The hunter fires his chambered round at a deer, works the bolt and chambers the top round in the magazine.  In the process the second round is lifted to be next in line.  The problem is that the second round moves forward in the magazine and the rim does not engage the slot in the feed lips at the rear.  The more forward the case sets in the magazine the greater the departure angle comes.  The hunter works the action to chamber another round, but the bolt face catches the body of the case, not the rim.  This results in a jam, and might result in the case follower exiting the magazine.
While working with the M788 I decided to work on improving the single feeding of a round in the chamber.  The answer came quickly.  My rifle has a scope mounted on it with a low mount.  The ejection port is adequate for reliable ejection.  I found that laying the rifle on its side with the ejection port upward I could drop a round in the port and it fed easily into the chamber.  Far smoother than when I fed a round into the chamber in the scope up position.

With the approach of hunting season the M788 is going to be put away and I will be practicing with rifles that have a good track record.  I believe the Marlin 336 is next in batting order.

[huntswithdogs]

After your troubles, I'd better check my mags again. If I don't, I'll think about when I'm fixin to pull down on a deer and start wondering if all's gonna be well. Add bad or uncertain thoughts to a situation that gets my heart a-pumpin overtime and who knows what'll happen! Probably get to shakin, sweatin and all kinds of other things... Ah but the things we get get running around in our heads.


HWD

[Siskiyou]

With similar problems from two Remington factory magazines I am thinking that buying a third one would be a waste of money.  Sure hate to have a faulty magazine spoil a hunt.

Every once and a while I see somebody looking for a 788 magazine, I wonder if it is because of a problem or the magazine has been lost.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=723530&catid=4346

When I was twelve I carried an old saddle ring Winchester 94 in 25-35 deer hunting.  It was a real cowboy rifle having spent a lot of time in a saddle scabbed.  The retired rancher let me use it, but I soon was looking for something else.  Every once and while a live round would drop down into the open action locking it up.  I would have to set down and carefully work the round out.  A rather frustrating process, but it taught a 12-yearold patience.   

Dad tried getting the round out once or twice and for my birthday before the next season he presented my with a new Remington 760 pump.  I finished that first season with a M99 Savage in .303.

I have thought about increasing the cartridge length but discarded that notion because the problem starts with the bolt face missing the rim encountering the body of the case forward of the rim.


 

[Siskiyou]

I went into the garage today to see what if anything I could do to improve the situation with the 788.

I did the normal safety check to make sure the rifle was unloaded before doing anything else.  When I operated the bolt seemed to be smoother.  All the chambering, ejecting, and loading magazines had smooth things out some.

I placed the rifle in a rest so it was level and started loading and cycling magazine #1.  In the first thirty cycles there was one failure at 18. 

I next ran magazine #2 for thirty cycles without a failure.

I returned to #1 and did 35 cycles without failure, and the same with #2.

I did some real close looking at the scope mount and came to the conclusion that I can grinded off about ¼ inch of the one piece scope base that runs above the ejection port.  This could improve ejection and feeding of single rounds.  That will be on the rainy day list.

I will take the rifle back to the range a couple times before season, but it looks like it may be back in the running.

[bullmoose]

I shoot with a 788 action as well.I'll settle for the hand feeding of single cartridges for the great accuracy the 788 gives me.I shoot a few different disciplines and am very satified with the old action.





                   SHOOT OFTEN ,SHOOT STRAIGHT

[Brithunter]

You might find that some bevelled strips glued or soldered into the sides of the magazine cases that just hold the shoulders back against the rear wall of the mag will cure the problem. This is a std feature on the old BSA and Parker-Hale rifles and stops the bullet tips beign mashed into the front wall of the magazine under recoil.

I am looking at the drop mag from a P-H 1200c as I writhe this and it has two indents running down the side of the magazine case walls the provide these shoulders to hold the case back against the read wall of the mag.. Just an idea  .

Edit:-
      This is the P-h magazine and you can see the impressed shoulders in the case:-





Hope that helps make it clearer.

[Siskiyou]

Brithunter:  Thanks for the post and the pictures.  Together they make good sense and it is a project worth trying.

[Brithunter]

Not a problem. I recall reading about an American gunsmith adding these strips to the inside of magazines on the rifles he built so stop bullet tip damage under recoil. What I don't recall is who it was and what rifles but it seems they were big magnums but I cannot be sure. the principle is the same though keep the cartridges held back against the rear wall of the magazine

[Siskiyou]

Brithunter

I revisited the Remington 788 this week, and unfortunately the magazine did not feed the second round at the range the first time.  Accuracy is not an issue with the rifle.

I have followed up after your post examining the magazine.  The 788 magazine does have the indent/ridge designed to contact the case at the junction of the neck and shoulder.  I have included a picture showing the 788 magazine followed by a Remington 760 magazine, and a Savage 110CL magazine.


Note that the 788 magazine lacks the forward retention lips that the other two magazines have.  The forward retention metal (lip) keeps the case flat in the magazine.  The lack of forward lips allows the front of the cartridge to rise up in the 788 magazine.  When the front of the cartridge raises the rim of the case slips down in the rear a slight amount.  This happens on the second round because there is enough upward pressure to prevent it when the magazine is filled with three rounds.

I believe a secondary cause is a weak magazine spring.  I have two 788 magazines and they suffer the same problem.  When the top round is fed off the magazine it drags the cartridge below slightly.  When the bolt is brought back this allows the front to raise up higher and the rim to drop down.  When the bolt goes forward  over the rim and catches the body of the case jamming the rifle.




I am going to look around for 1/16 or 1/8 thick aluminum and create filler in the bottom of the magazine to increase spring tension.  I believe the real flaw is in the design of the magazine without the forward retention lips that the 760 and 110 magazines have. 

Yesterday I received a favorable scouting report from a hunting partner.  Of course it does not guarantee action but I do not want to flub the hunt with a problem rifle.  At this time I will put the 788 aside for critter hunting.  I will also consider it if a second deer tag become necessary.

I took a Remington 700 in 270 Winchester on the same range trip as the 788.  I needed to sight in a new Elite 3200 3x9-40 scope.  Performance was flawless and it is ready for deer or black bear. 

[hardluk1]

  I have owned a 788 in 308 that i bought new somewhere around the mid 70's and do have three mags for it. I shot the heck out of that rifle. Are these problems with the 243 and not the 308 based rounds??? I never ever had any problem with the mags or rounds chambering. Just a rattle'n mags. That rifle still places most rounds at or under 1". Never cared much about brand but never shot heavy bullets. Mainly 150 and 125 nbt's now. I wwish i could find a couple others to buy. The bolt does need to be snaped back to clear fired or live rounds unlike control feed guns.

[chefjeff]

You know, the 788 was (is) a great performer but in my limited experience they are safety weak and sometimes have feed problems,basically you bought one at a good deal but rather have the 700 any day. They were just built cheaper.

[hardluk1]

 I never cared much about the look or finish on a weapon and that is the one reason i never wanted a 700 or would not trade for a rem 700. I doubt it could possible shoot tigher groups. I met a guy at the range that has 5 different 788s . Said all shot better than other more expensive rifles and just keeps take'n the old uglies hunting and to the range. The expensive and pretty guns are his safe queens. I at least have never had any problems with my one lowly 788. Only own to cenfire rifles, the other is a custom ruger 7 rem mag . and for the money its luck it does shoot tigher groups. There kinda like the vanguard was for weatherby. Now i would like to find a decent mod 600 rem..

[moorepower]

My .243 has never had a failure to pick up a round, but I can't say that about either of my 700's. I have found that teflon spray on the inside of the mags makes them work a little smoother. I would agree the mag is not a great design.

[mannyrock]

    I am confused.  Why wouldn't the very first thing you try to do be the purchase and installation of a new mag spring?   Isn't that the most obvious fix?

Regards,

Mannyrock

[Siskiyou]

Mannyrock:  I like your idea regarding buy a new 788 magazine spring.  I took the more costly step the first time around and purchased a new factory magazine.  I like to have more than one magazine for those arms that take an external magazine.  

Unfortunately that did not fix the problem; it highlighted the issue by repeating the same type of failure.  It appears that the miss feed starts with the second round in the magazine.  I believe the first round stays in position because on the upward pressure generated by the two following rounds.  I realize I am only dealing with one rifle, and two Remington magazines, but I believe engineering at the lowest cost maybe a factor.  


I have checked and they are out of stock.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=806950&filter=remington+788+parts&catid=0

I also checked these sites.

http://www.gun-parts.com/remingtonhprifle/

http://www.wisnersinc.com/rifles/remington/boltCF.html

I also did a search on Brownells site


The two magazines that I have should not be suffering compression failure from long team storage of ammunition in the magazines.  I load them when hunting or shooting, at the end of the day they are unloaded and cleaned.

I have mention in other post that I have a removable magazine feed Remington 760.  The rifle came with one magazine and I purchased a backup magazine a few years later.  They have been problem free for over fifty years.  The bluing is worn off from carrying but that is honest use.  About 25 years down the road the 760 had been replaced by the 7600 and there were question flying if the series would be continued.  I had the owner of a local gunshop order me a new 760 magazine.  It came in a sealed Remington package labeled for the 760 and the 7600.  It set in a drawer for about 15 years before I tried it.  It does not fit smoothly, a slight struggle and critical placement to get it into the magazine well.  

Using the old Remington magazines it is a fast firing repeater with a reload, with the new one it is a rifle with a magazine jammed in the well.

If I was to buy another Remington magazine I would try it out right away, so that I could return it if faculty.  

I have been sidelined with Shingles the past month so my deer season has come and gone with me being sidelined.  In this period I have not reload additional ammunition for the 788.  I am looking forward to loading for the rifle; I have a good supply of .243 bullets, and powder.  

Now that my only hunting option is bear and the tag is in my daypack I might get a few days out.  I have never fired a 243 at a bear, but I do have concerns.  When the magazine problem is factored in it drops out.  Fortunately I have other options.

I killed this bear with one shot in the ear with an 8MM Mauser.    The result would have the same with my 243 Winchester.




A day or two before coming downing with Shingles, I loaded my ammuntion box for my annual hunting trip.  The two boxs of 105 grain Speer Splitzers for the .243 did not get loaded.  Instead I back 160-grain loads for the 7MM Remington Magnum, and 150-grain loads for a .270 Winchester.  My primary focus being deer.  With the deer season over and the bear tag my remaining option I consider the latter two better options

http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/788.html

[Siskiyou]

Quote from September 22, 2010
“I am going to look around for 1/16 or 1/8 thick aluminum and create filler in the bottom of the magazine to increase spring tension.  I believe the real flaw is in the design of the magazine without the forward retention lips that the 760 and 110 magazines have.”

I revisited the 788 today with a plan.  Rather than looking for a metal shim for the bottom of the magazine I used a plastic shim cut from the lid of a 40-pound laundry soap bucket.  I cut the shim to fit inside the walls of the magazine. 

I cut the shim from just inside the lip towards the center.  The material has a taper thicker towards the lip side.  I placed the thickest material to the back of the magazine so the greater pressure would exert on the head of the case.

As I loaded the three “dummy” rounds into the magazine it felt like the pressure being exerted by the spring to be stiffer.

I loaded and cycled the action thirty times with magazine #1 without a failure.  The second round did not slide forward in the magazine when the first round was being chambered.  Unlike before modification the second round came up and engaged the rear lips of the magazine as designed.

I cut a plastic shim for magazine #2, placed it in the bottom of the magazine and re-assembled it.  I then loaded the magazine three rounds at a time and repeated the functioning test thirty times without a failure.

At this time I consider the problem FIXED and the rifle will be in the line for deer another season being this one over for me.  Yes, I will occasionally run a few dummy rounds to smooth the action and insure that the magazine problem is not dormant. 

There has been a lot of discussion regarding Remington triggers of late.  During all the testing the firing pin never fell unless I pulled the trigger.  In addition I pulled on the trigger with the safety set, and release the safety.  The firing pin did not fall.

I pulled the action out of the stock so I could get to the trigger.  It appeared to be different then the triggers in my 722 and 700 rifles.  No adjustment of the trigger was attempted or necessary.  The trigger appeared clear of any dirt, grease and debris.  I blew the trigger out as best I could with high pressure air, and lightly lubed with break-free. 

During the same session I pulled out the Model 722 with the orginal Walker Trigger.  Conducted a number of safety test and the system passed.  I do not know the wieght of the trigger pull on this rifle, but I discribe it as a "good" crisp trigger, not too light or too heavy.

[Brithunter]

Sorry to hear that have been ill. Hope you fully recovered now also glad to here that the magazine appears to be fixed  .

[Siskiyou]

Brithunter:

Thank-you I think this case of Shingles is rather serious.  According to the doctor it is.  I feel very fortunate that it is not on my face or around the eyes.

I have a 2010 Bear Tag but the body is not ready for the woods.  The movement of my T-shirt over the blister area is painful.  It is illegal here to bait bear, so it is not a sit around and watch a bait pile.

I am pitching Shingle Shots.  In some areas it is difficult or slow to get because the shot is expensive and small medical practices do not stock.  It is order, wait, and get the shot.  My wife got her shot at the doctor’s office one day when I was in there for a follow-up shingles exam.  Some health plans cover the cost of the shot.  My health plan covers it, dah!

I will get the shot down the road.  Doctor says that reoccurrence of Shingles are common.  The shot greatly diminishes the level of reoccurrence.

While I am on the bandwagon; do to some of the medication I have taken for the Shingles I cannot get a Flu shot for two more weeks.  I have never gotten the Pneumonia shot but I going for it this year.  I feel my immune system is way down, what is not normal for me.

A younger brother got pneumonia when he was in the Marines during the Vietnam War.  He has been treated for pneumonia a number of times since.  I convinced him that he was a good candidate for the pneumonia shot because of his history and time lost to fighting pneumonia.  He has not had it since his first shot, and now he calls and tells me he got his shot.  A case of Elder Brother Syndrome. (EBS)

The 243 dies are still setting in the Mag-T press and it looks like it could be a stormy week ahead.  The mind is churning regarding 243 loads what I have developed for game and varmints.  An issue is the major difference in vertical impact between the loads.  I feel a new topic in optics coming on.

[Brithunter]

My Father had a dose of shingles some years ago I seem to recall. Remembering all that has inflicted him since his major stroke is not easy. This year has been very bad for him and us as he has had so many things. In fact it started Christmas day when he was rushed into hospital with a urine and lung infection. not good for an 87 year old. they got their Flu shots "finally" this morning as the surgery didn't order enough and when I tool them about a month ago one the appointed day the surgery was closed and no one had told us to a 16 mile trip for nothing.

I really do hope you recover soon.

Let's hope I don't suffer with feed problems on the .280 AI I am building right now. The rifle was a .270 BSA Monarch but the throat was quite worn so i acquired a new in the white BSA manufactured CF2 7x64 Brenneke barrel and have fitted it. Although the thread is the same the breeching is different on the CF2 to the older Monarch (1967) so I had to turn back the shoulder and deepen the counter bore for the bolt head. The BSA's have the three rings of steel and have done since 1953 and the introduction of the Hunter model. We now await the delivery of the .280 gauges from Forster and the .280 AI PTG reamer from Midway UK  I am not good at waiting    BTW.

Oh I also had threaded the muzzle 1/2" UNF so I can use a sound Moderator or muzzle brake should I so wish. The Sound Mod will have to be a muzzle can rather than a reflex as I am going to solder the foresight ramp onto the barrel so I can use one of the Lyman 57SME receiver sights I have as well. Due to the BSA's integral dovetails on the action I will have to very slightly modify the Lyman to allow the scope rings clearance with the sight body. At the moment it's too close for comfort that is unless I can modify a set of Hilver scope rings to clear and sit forward of the Lyman 57 so the sight arm can stay in place on the rifle with the scope above it. Have just taken some photos of it and will put them up in another thread.

[sgtt]

Get the shot! My Doc advised me to go to Walgreens and have it.  He said the cost at the clinic was around $300 if ins. didn't cover it. I got it at Cub pharmacy. $41.

As far as the 788 goes, I have never had a problem with my 308 carbines 3 mags.

[Siskiyou]

Good information on getting the shot at Walgreens.  I did not know that it was one carried by the pharmacys.