Soldering Shims

[quickdtoo]

This subject was brought up a few months ago and I questioned that it would not work for fear of the solder hammering out making the barrel loose, but I discussed it with Wayne last time I was at his shop, that's how he does it using soft solder, he said as long as the shim is firmly seated against the pivot, there's not enough solder to hammer out and it will work fine. I forgot all about it   until I decided to fit the 260 Rem barrel to a different frame today! I cut a .012" steel shim that fit the pivot, then annealed it, sanded the back side of it a bit, then degreased it and the pivot. I wanted to be able to hold it in the pivot under pressure and then heat it all up and seat it, so I tested a couple drill bits for size that would hold the shim against the pivot with no gap behind it, found one that was .352" in diameter and clamped in place, there was no gap between it and the pivot.

Next I needed something I could use beside a steel drill bit, didn't want to solder it in the pivot accidentally, so I decided to use aluminum, found an old 3-piece shotgun cleaning rod I had that's .375" diameter, cut a short section, chucked it up in the drill press and turned it down to .352" with a file. Using 60-40 acid core solder I tinned the back side of the shim and the pivot, after they cooled I clamped a large spring clamp($4 at the hardware store) on the short piece of aluminum rod against the shim and on the latch shelf on the other end of the underlug, then heated the entire works with a propane torch and watched it fully seat in the pivot as the solder melted, worked like a charm!!   The all I had to do was cut the pivot to .375" to fit it to the new frame.

Tim

[AtlLaw]

COOL!   

Any idea which is the stronger bond, epoxy or soldier?   

[quickdtoo]

I dunno, but it didn't take long to find some info on the net, but they don't list compressive strength which is the factor that would be tested. JB Weld has a compressive strength of 10.6kpsi, Superweld which has been renamed Automotive has a compressive strength of 36kpsi.

Tim

http://www.engineersedge.com/solder_joint_design/solder_materials_calc.htm

http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/solder.htm

http://jbweld.net/products/jbweld.php

http://www.eclecticproducts.com/_tds/au_ep_tds.pdf

[mtbugle]

Funny I was just giong to ask about this very thing for the last couple of days when I had a chance.
Thanks Don.

[wtroger]

I use Stay-Brite High Strength Silver Solder it is 96% tin 4% silver flows at 430 F and is 4-5 times stronger then tin/lead solders as easy to use as tin/lead solder. And the way you did yours is exactly the way I do mine, tin both pieces compress together and heat till you see flow.

[Winter Hawk]

Not wanting to be a wet blanket, but my experience from many years ago soldering electronics (back in the days of vacuum tubes!) has been that the acid flux does not neutralize, and eventually the acid will eat the joint.  My dad made a couple of hanging lamps for the new house in 1957, copying an antique stable lantern we had.  The joints all were showing signs of deterioration after ten years.  Now those were built using sheet copper, steel may do just fine.  Maybe Tim can post how his shims are doing in another ten years?   

-Kees-

[quickdtoo]

I use Stay-Brite High Strength Silver Solder it is 96% tin 4% silver flows at 430 F and is 4-5 times stronger then tin/lead solders as easy to use as tin/lead solder. And the way you did yours is exactly the way I do mine, tin both pieces compress together and heat till you see flow.

I saw some lead free solder that has similar proportions of tin and silver, but I didn't know how well it would bond, what kind of flux do you use?

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Not wanting to be a wet blanket, but my experience from many years ago soldering electronics (back in the days of vacuum tubes!) has been that the acid flux does not neutralize, and eventually the acid will eat the joint.  My dad made a couple of hanging lamps for the new house in 1957, copying an antique stable lantern we had.  The joints all were showing signs of deterioration after ten years.  Now those were built using sheet copper, steel may do just fine.  Maybe Tim can post how his shims are doing in another ten years?   

-Kees-

Yeah, the acid thing did cross my mind,  it's so easy to do, I may just redo it with some better solder!! 

Tim

[rdlange]

Wait... does that mean the aluminum WON'T get soldered in when used as a clamp?  Or does just 'tinning' the two surfaces of the shim and barrel lug minimize the solder enough to prevent the aluminum from getting stuck?

I've got Stay-brite already, but I thought I was supposed to use a separate flux.  How am I gonna flux the joint between the lug and the shim?

Another thing... do I solder the shim in first and if/then do the epoxy steel lug fill?  Seems like soldering 'after' filling in the center of the lug would soften the epoxy when I did the soldering.  Maybe I don't need to do the lug fill if I solder in the shim...

Finally, I still need to 'cut' the shimmed lug to .375 after soldering, so I make it a bit too thick, or does the solder itself increase the thickness enough to provide enough to abrade to a perfect fit?   ... just wondering in the details..?

[trotterlg]

The truth about the acid flux is that if you clean it up after soldering things will be just fine.  Acid core and electronics don't work out well because there is no way to really clean off all the flux, so it will have some problems mainly with the copper wire.  Solder and silver solder will not stick to aluminum and only some silvers will stick to stainless.  The joint will be so thin that it will not get hammered out, I soldered (soft) latch shelf shims that take far more pressure than the hinge pin does with acid core soft solder and they are still running fine as far as I know.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

Thanks Larry, I was kinda hoping that cleaning it up good afterwards would work. 

Tim

[Smokin Joe]

Brush it down with baking soda and water. Give it a shot of gun oil afterward.

[trotterlg]

Not a problem with solid stuff, in electronics the acid flux would wick up the stranded wire or get up under the insulation of solid wire and soak into the circut board, that kind of thing.  Larry

[wtroger]

Quick the flux is a zinc chloride base Ie(cut acid) hydrocloric acid with zinc dissolved in it. I used to make it myself but now I just buy it with the stay-brite kit. I get these from either Brownells or Midway. The kits have enough in them to do several small projects like sight or hinge shims.

[Catshooter45]

Excellent work Tim.  Solder will give a much stronger joint than epoxy, particularly a silver solder.


Cat

[moorepower]

Has anyone ever tried the loctite that is used for loose bearing races? I have used that stuff on hubs that spun a wheel bearing and it flat works. Just curious.

[quickdtoo]

Quick the flux is a zinc chloride base Ie(cut acid) hydrocloric acid with zinc dissolved in it. I used to make it myself but now I just buy it with the stay-brite kit. I get these from either Brownells or Midway. The kits have enough in them to do several small projects like sight or hinge shims.

Thanks, I'll pick some up.

Tim

[gcrank1]

I havent used the Locktite specifically for this, but many other similar applications and it has worked well. When I have had to disassemble a few some propane torch heat has done it.
As an experimentor I will use it, without hesitation, if I have to stick a shim on one of mine.
If I am not satisfied I will then try soldering, as per this post! (thanx Tim)

[quickdtoo]

I found 1oz 6% silver kits on ebay for less than $18 shipped, that's twice as much solder and flux for less money than Midway's ˝oz kit if anyone's interested. 

Tim

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330378666406

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=813132

[Bill3006]

Here is the link to the locktite, I think,  if anyone is interested.

http://www.fiberoptics4sale.com/pdf/Loctite-680-technical-spec-sheet.pdf

[moorepower]

I know it works good on races, but I have no idea if it will work on the hinge.

[quickdtoo]

The ebay source of silver solder is back logged on their orders until the end of the month, so I did a little more foot work, Radio Shack has Ľoz tubes of rosin core 96% tin/ 4% silver on the shelf for less than $4.

Tim

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062722&tab=custRatings#showReviews

[dwalk]

i used to use locktite bearing and stud set on motorcycle engines when i raced motorcycles...worked great...

[mechanic]

The ebay source of silver solder is back logged on their orders until the end of the month, so I did a little more foot work, Radio Shack has Ľoz tubes of rosin core 96% tin/ 4% silver on the shelf for less than $4.

Tim

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062722&tab=custRatings#showReviews

I think you will find the rosin core (for electronics) will not bond well to steel, you will have to use an acid base flux.  This will not be a problem, or never has to me.  I've soldered many, many radiators and pieces of steel tubing with never a corrosion problem.  The lead free solder would be better IMO, because of the lower melt temp and flow rate......

[gcrank1]

Mechanic, would you say it would be OK to use acid flux on the steel for prep and still use the rosin-core solder to tin and join?

[mechanic]

Just personally, I wouldn't use rosin core at all for anything except electrical soldering.  The best would be the silver base solder someone has already mentioned, with a flux designed for it.  I don't think in a normal lifetime that corrosion from the flux would happen, if you clean the residue off the outside.

I've had poor results trying rosin core on anything except copper, silver and gold, (as in jewelry).

But thats just my experience, others here I'm sure have more...

[quickdtoo]

After working with the rosin core, I agree with you Ben, it doesn't tin very well at all, but if I tin with the acid core 60/40, brush it off good leaving the metal nice and shiny, then put down a layer of the 96/4, seems to work fine.

Tim

[mechanic]

I have an older shotgun barrel fitted to an SB2, that had almost 15 thousanths of slack.  I built it up with a torch and brass rod, then worked it down with a round file, then varying emery paper around a drill bit.  Seems fine.  I would not recommend it unless someone has a lot of patience.

Ben

[bikerbeans]

Tim,

Ever try soldiering a shim to the top of the latch shelf?  Can't tell you why I want to know.

BB

[quickdtoo]

Not yet, but Larry did. 

Tim