Author Topic: Looks like me and Taurus are gonna be parting company. (Read 11808 times)

Graybeard · « **on:** December 12, 2003, 11:37:01 AM »

Well guys you may remember the story awhile back of my Taurus Ti Model 460 6.5" .45 Colt that arrived with so many problems I just packed it back up and shipped it off to Taurus without even firing it. IT was the secon gun in a row that had to go back if you recall. The M44 I bought was throwing bullets thru the target sideways at 25 yards the barrel was so bad in a brand new out of the box gun.

Well this M460 had different but altogether just as bad problems. Action was horribly gritty and almost locked up right from the box. Timing was off so badly it already had a ring around the cylinder right out of the box. When holding the hammer and trigger back which should lock it in place the cylinder would rotate. Worse of all to me was it had what I still think is a metal defect on the top strap near where the rear sight mounts.

Taurus put it on the bench last week on Wednesday (12-03-03) and apparently have only now decided what to do with it.

When I called today I was told it was repaired and would be returned. Sounds good at first blush. BUT! I ask what about the cylinder with the ring around it. Was told they replaced the cylinder but the replacement already has a ring on it also from their test firing it! I said WHAT? A gun with proper timing don't score a cylinder that fast. My RB454 with at least a couple thousand rounds has no such ring.

"But this one is Titanium" he says. WOW! How about that it is titanium. Dang near the hardest substance know to man except a diamond and I'm supposed to accept that as a reason why just testing firing puts a ring around the cylinder.

So I ask about the place I felt and still feel is a defect in the metal of the topstrap. He looks and says he can't see any such place. Neither he nor another person with him can see it. Well maybe "just maybe" my poor old eyes played tricks on me and it was only a scratch and it was polished out. MAYBE! If so tho why wasn't it so noted on the repair sheet? All they've been willing to say since it got there is they see NOTHING! Sorta like the old sarg on Hogan's Heroes TV show. Well when it gets back if I see NOTHING I'll forget that part of it and chalk it up to my eyes playing tricks on me. But under magnification it sure didn't look like no scratch to me.

I'm gonna be hard pressed to make the decision when this one comes back in the shape it apparently is coming back in whether to fire it and see what I think or just take it back to the dealer I bought it from and trade it off on something else and let someone else deal with it. I've been wanting this gun since LONG before they made it. When I first noticed they were making the Tracker series in the 2" snub nose guns in .44 Special and .45 Colt I've been wanting one or both with a 6" up to a 7.5" barrel. As soon as I heard this one was to be made I've been trying to get one. I finally get it and find the QA department had apparently been napping when this one came thru. If they weren't then they were surely having lunch cuz they sure didn't check it and then let it thru.

Remember this is the SECOND such junker in a row I've bought now. At least as bad as the M44 was they did quickly replace it with another. They could have just replaced a barrel and really that one would have been OK and I'd have not had a problem with it coming back to me because except for that it really was a decent gun. But when 2 of 6 bullets goes thru a target sideways (I mean totally broadside) and another couple are clearing yawing with at most a couple appearing straight on that's a MAJOR problem. Yeah this was factory ammo as well as reloads.

So why this time claim to have replaced a cylinder which I don't believe was done and wasn't the problem anyway. Dunno folks. But this old Graybeard is parting company with Taurus. You ain't likely gonna see anymore good words from me about them. I treat folks good who treat me good. I have no doubt my good reviews of Taurus guns have been reposible for hundreds if not thousands of gun sales for them. A bunch of folks have written me to so advise. Who knows how many didn't write but bought. Well now IF this turns out as it appears it is gonna I'll see how many folks I can convince to NOT buy a Taurus.

If it happens as it appears it will I make you no promises as to the chances this forum will remain. For sure the positive reviews of other guns which might lead to someone buying Taurus guns in the future will be removed. :eek:

Yeah ya might say I'm not a happy camper with Taurus rat now. Ya might.

GB

Big Blue · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2003, 01:56:38 PM »

I'm sorry to hear of the trouble, you have experienced with Taurus handguns. I have just bought my third Taurus and haven't experienced as much as one defect. I have the Mod. 450, Mod PT92, and now a Mod. 651, of their new protector series. The quality and workmanship on these guns is first class, and I would stack them up against any other make. I don't make it a habbit to support foreign companies, if I can get the same or better product from the USA, but I have judged Taurus to be a better value than the domestic makers. Hope you can straighten out your problems with them.

Don

myronman3 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2003, 04:02:04 PM »

now that is really interesting, boss. what do you suppose the problem is? maybe they got a bit too comfy with their position in the market? maybe they are under some new management? i considered them tops for quite a while now but may have to reconsider, depending on how this turns out for you. something must be up because i been hearing a bunch of negative stuff about them lately. anyhow, if they screw you, let us know. i, for one, will definately cross them off my list of options.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2003, 05:39:06 PM »

I think they are trying to grow too big too fast and as usually happens with companies that do that they are taking short cuts. I have two RBs in .454 Casull and .480 Ruger that are as good a guns as I could ask for. Not a problem with them. We have a couple of the Taurus Tracker Tis and they too have been fine guns. No complaints on either really.

BUT then I but the new for this year M44 12" and it is a piece of crap. The barrel when I got it looked almost like an old black powder gun that hadn't been cleaned regularly. It was more black with pits and such than shiny. You could see tool marks from end to end that looked like they were made with a file. Fire six shots and two might appear nose on to the target. Two for sure would be full broadside as they tumbled and at least two would show signs of tumbling but not full broadside. This was with bullets of 180 to 310 grains in weight both factory loads and reloads. This one they replaced without comment.

Now the new for this quarter of this year Model 460 6.5" and it is JUNK. See above all the problems with it.

Now I do believe in coincidence and I do believe that if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all. BUT two in a row bad, so bad right out of the box they had to be returned immediately? That ain't coincidence. That's poor quality control.

At least with the M44 the Customer Service folks did their job and made it right. This time they don't really seem to care to me. I think maybe they are getting so many back they just don't have the time or patience to care anymore.

I'm of the opinion that they got too popular too fast because they really were doing good for awhile. They got too much good press and let it go to their heads it seems to me.

I'll with hold judgement on this latest case until I see what I get back but if I get what I was told I'll be getting I'm washing my hands of them. I've been hearing a LOT of negatives from folks on them of late and was having a hard time believing it based on the experiences I'd had to date with Taurus. Well now I BELIEVE!

GB

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2003, 06:26:30 PM »

Graybeard,
Just to throw another log on the fire, I went thursday to pick up the model 85 I had ordered for the wife for christmas. When I got there they set the box on the counter, I opened it and Luckily it was the wrong gun. It was a model 85 alright but it was the blued version not the stainless,but here is the kicker..

I picked it up to look at it even though I was not going to buy it and there was a WEAR RING AROUND THE CYLINDER!! and the TRIGGER WAS NOT RIGHT!!! Now when I say not right, It was not gritty,it was worse.. It felt like it was binding,but only in single action. It felt fine in double??? This was a NIB gun!!! Still in the plastic bag!!!
So if monday when the correct gun comes in and I find it in that condition I may be looking elsewhere for handgun's as well....

Big Blue · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:12:56 AM »

After seeing your post last night, I more closly examined my Taurus revolvers, for the problems you had found. I don't know if my luck is just better than yours, but the guns seem fine. The only critisism I could find, is with the new 651. I picked it up yesterday, and when I got home, I had to take a few shots to check it out. I put a box of Federal 129 gr. .38 +P through the gun, and they shot low and to left about 4". I haven't tried other ammo through it yet, nor have I had enough time with the gun to say the problem isn't me. The groups at 30' were excellent , just low and to the left. This is the smallest revolver I've ever owned, so the problem may improve as my grip does.

myronman3 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2003, 09:45:16 AM »

cripes! with smith's history and the way taurus is going, a guy is running out of d.a. options. :shock: i like ruger in general; but think their d.a.'s look like polished turds (not to include the gp100's).

EricG · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2003, 10:17:44 AM »

With today's quality in the industry I don't dare buy a gun that I can't personally inspect before I lay out cash money. That is unfortunate because I see so many deals on the internet. The local dealers add $100-$300 over the internet price for every gun I see. I'm seriously considering a 5" stainless Raging Bull .480. I can find an internet price of $442 and the local dealer wants over $700 fo rthe one on his shelf! I checked out the one on his shelf and the quality looks great, like what I have in my .454. I'm very tempted to buy the gun over the net, but I'm afraid to end up in the same situation you folks are finding with the poor quality because you can't inspect it first.

Do you think the distributors and large dealers are shipping their rejects to those of us who buy on an order without seeing the gun first? makes me wonder.

Eric

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2003, 12:23:06 PM »

Well Eric I don't know what's going on. I don't like it either. I've heard a fair number of complaints on the RB but have never been totally sure of the validity of them. The ones I've seen, owned and held have all been fine. But all of them have been somewhat older production too. From my personal experience with Taurus of late for sure I'll be ordering no more and if I buy another and thats a mighy BIG IF then it will be from shelf stock and I can ad least examine closely first.

myronman3, yup I sure do wish S&W would get their act together and make a good faith attempt to get out from under the agreement. That's really all it would take for me to forgive the new owners but IT IS gonna take that. No one has ever been any stronger a proponent of S&W guns than I was before the agreement. It sure hurts me to not be buying them but I will not until they come around.

The shame of this is Taurus really has some truly innovative and desireable products. Stuff no one else really has anything comparable to. I sure hate to see what seems to be both a slide downward in quality and a loss of customer service concerns on their part.

I make take a look at the Ruger Red Hawk. It is brute strong and I kinda sorta like the looks of it OK. Best of all Pachmayr makes a good grip for it. I think it might make a suitable platform for a five shot .475 Linebaugh or at least the .480 Ruger that would be lighter than the RB480 and with proper porting might be manageable for me. I can't imagine how it could shoot better than my personal RB480 does but that big rascal sure ain't in my opinion a hip carry gun and I'd sorta like one that is. I can't deal with the level of recoil these rounds deliver in ANY single action to include the FA83 or the Ruger Bisley. For this level of recoil I need a double action.

GB

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2003, 12:35:38 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard

The shame of this is Taurus really has some truly innovative and desireable products. Stuff no one else really has anything comparable to. I sure hate to see what seems to be both a slide downward in quality and a loss of customer service concerns on their part.

GB

i couldnt agree more. hate to see it going this way, but what do you do when customer service goes south? part ways, i guess...

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2003, 01:15:31 PM »

Greybeard
I have a Redhawk that I replaced the grips with Pach's declerators. I Have large hands and Ruger comes with small grips. These work great. Sorry about your problem with Taurus I have 3 and have had no problems, so have not had an experience to deal with customer service. I can't seem to get a catologe from them, probably a related department.
Jim

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 2003, 12:08:19 PM »

Jim, I've noticed that Pachmayr makes three different grips for the RH. A Presentation, a Decelerator and a Gripper with finger grooves. Do you know which or if all of these have rubber at the back of the back strap? I have a bone spur or calcium deposit or some such at the base of my right thumb and really MUST have rubber covering the back strap to be able to handle any real recoil.

BTW I got four good Taurus revolvers in a row before now getting two bad ones in a row. :roll: I sure hope they do better by me on this last one that I believe they are going to.

GB

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #12 on:** December 15, 2003, 01:26:47 PM »

My Pach grips on my Redhawk are the declerator's and they have the finger grooves and are padded in rubber on the back strap. Have the same grips on the super black hawk they do help.
Jim

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2003, 05:21:31 PM »

I will give an update tomorrow on the taurus I ordered. If it is anything like the other one they ordered (the wrong one) I will be looking for another brand.....

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2003, 04:16:58 PM »

Well I picked up the wifes model 85 today and I am happy to report that this is an excellent gun,so far :grin: In light of all that has happened with graybeard, and with the other m85 the shop ordered for me (the wrong style) I went over this gun with a fine tooth comb before I agreed to take it :wink:
I was even able to sneak off and put 10 rounds of +p through it, the first 5 in single action and the rest in double as fast as I could pull the trigger.
So far so good

dpastor · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2004, 10:16:02 AM »

GB

Sorry to hear about quality problems. The worst thing about them, is that once a problem is encountered, you never stop thinking about it or what might happen tomorrow. Just like my wife's feelings when I let sawdust fall on her new carpet. It will never be the same.

I own a Taurus 441, 5 shot .44 special 4" bbl. Probably the best out of the box revolver I have ever owned. Both Rugers needed trigger work. One gave me tendonitis on my cocking thumb after a day at the range. In fact both Rugers give me fits on double action due to the necessity of consciously releasing the trigger ALL the way before putting pressure on it again.

454-hunter · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2004, 07:37:53 PM »

what do you mean I may be ignorant to what this is I have been shooting for about 5 yrs. when it comes to big bore guns and I have had a taurus RB 454 for about 6 months and find that mine shoots fine what is this ring you are talkiing about and what does timing or how does incorrect timing produce this ring. ? please explain to a poor ignorant handgunner.

Stan

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2004, 04:50:13 PM »

Wow Stan, you sure pulled up an oldie.

The ring is a mark around the diameter of a cylinder caused by the hand that locks into the notch not being timed right. If it is properly timed it should never come into contact with the cylinder before it is just at the noth and therefore wouldn't make a ring on the cylinder.

Many old and tired guns get it with age and use as the timing of the gun slowly gets out of whack. A new gun really shouldn't be subject to this if it is right from the factory.

Both of my RBs are fine. Sure can't say the same for either the original Model 460 or the replacement.

GB

mjb · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2004, 03:48:08 AM »

In my experience, Tauruses are nothing but junk. They are cheap copies of Smith and Beretta. They also make the only revolvers that are known to jam.

unspellable · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2004, 05:19:32 AM »

Graybeard,

I couldn't agree more with your remarks on timing, except that this problem is due to the bolt not the hand. (At least in a S&W) The big problem is where do we get a revolver that's properly timed? I have not seen a revolver come out of the factory box (of any make) in the last twenty years that was properly timed. I think it's a cost cutting thing. It's easier for the manufacturer to time the bolt early on all of them, then there is no hand fitting. Doesn't affect reliability just creates the ring on the cylinder.

In the case of a S&W the length of the bolt nose is what sets the timing on the bolt. You need to have a longer nose to make the bolt rise later which sounds a bit klugey. No good solution to this. Rounding the edges a bit on the part of the bolt that contacts the cylinder helps a bit.

I get a song and dance about the early bolt reducing the chance of the cylinder going past index, but I've never seen it happen and I don't think it would be a problem except on a revolver used for some kind of speed competition, in which case the revolver will be customized any way. It's easy to shorten the bolt nose. They could at least leave a long nose on the replacement bolt so you could cut it down to where you wanted it.

Wrong Way · « **Reply #20 on:** September 09, 2004, 02:08:30 PM »

Quote from: mjb

In my experience, Tauruses are nothing but junk. They are cheap copies of Smith and Beretta. They also make the only revolvers that are known to jam.

I have owned almost a dozen Taurus revolvers over the years and have found them to be far better quality that ANY Smith & Wesson I have ever owned. (And I've owned more than a few) I have never had even ONE problem with any of them. As far as "jamming revolvers", well, my brand new Ruger Stainless Blackhawk .45 didn't even get the first six shots through it before it jammed up. Went right back to the factory. They fixed it alright but I never did get my shipping costs back... I wouldn't spend anymore of my hard earned money on either a Smith or a Beretta. I'll leave that to you.

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** September 09, 2004, 02:20:09 PM »

Quote

I wouldn't spend anymore of my hard earned money on either a Smith or a Beretta. I'll leave that to you

Not me you won't. I've not spend a penny on S&W since they signed the agreement. Have never owned anything made by Beretta but sure would like to own one of the O/U shotguns.

But it is so appropriate that you brought this old thread back to the top today. Why?

Because today I finally got around to taking the M460 out again. I had I think fired it 5 or 10 rounds when I first got it and now was out for the second time with it.

Fired five rounds fine but they made a group of 3.3" at 25 yards. I had just fired a 0.9" group with same ammo in my Ruger Bisley. Fired five more rounds and it was 4.2" at 25 yards. Tried to load five more and the cylinder wouldn't close. Finally after much cleaning and messing around I got it to close. Never did figure just what the heck happened.

BUT for sure this one is now trade material and will go back to store I bought it at very soon. I will NEVER EVER in a MILLION YEARS buy another Taurus handgun.

myronman3 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 09, 2004, 03:09:56 PM »

all that after how many trips back to the factory? 2? so if 2, that means it left the factory 3 times. 3 times and they couldnt ensure it was right? inexcusable.

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** September 09, 2004, 06:29:50 PM »

Well gun one left the factory and went to my dealer than me. It went back the next day after I got it to Taurus. It came back to me with no change. It went back to Taurus and then this new replacement came to me that in some respects is worse than the first one I refused to fire.

It is unreal the lack of quality control I've seen in my Taurus purchases in the last 18 month. And customer service is no better. As a minimum the barrel on this one needs to be replaced. I'm not sure what the heck tied up the action the way it did today. It was not possible to force it closed out on the range. Even tho I never really saw what was the problem it did close and begin to rotate freely again after I messed with it long enough. I'm done with it and I'm done with Taurus.

My two RBs are fine guns. Good as they come. I've never owned better double action revolvers than they are. The jury is still out on my 12" M44 which as you may recall is a replacement for the first one I bought. I need to do some more shooting with it. I've just not worked with it enough to say for sure if it's a keeper or not.

BUT judging by the way my Accusport Bisley .45 Colt shoots I'm seriously considering just trading the M44 on a Ruger Bisley .44 Mag and being done with it too. That would leave me with only the RBs which are perfectly good revolvers.

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #24 on:** September 10, 2004, 02:51:28 PM »

I am to the point that I will not consider anything from Taurus except something in the Raging Bull line. I don't care for ruger, and wont buy S&W, so I am a little limited right now. I guess I will just have to work on the rifle and shotgun collection....

Graybeard · « **Reply #25 on:** September 10, 2004, 06:02:24 PM »

Quote

I guess I will just have to work on the rifle and shotgun collection....

I've been doing just that. Tried to call my dealer today but he took the day off. I only deal with him directly and not the staff so will have to wait until Monday.

Gonna get prices on a Whby. Vanguard SS in .257 Whby. Mag. and a Remington CDL in .35 Whelen and then decide from there what I order. The M460 will go for one or the other.

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #26 on:** September 12, 2004, 02:20:35 AM »

Thats interesting Graybeard, I've been itching to get my hands on a Weatherby Vanguard in 257 Weatherby as well....

TC Shooter · « **Reply #27 on:** September 14, 2004, 05:49:45 AM »

I have been seriously considering a Taurus Tracker 22lr . Looked one over and it appeared to be well built and finished. Reading this thread has made me think twice!

Mohawk · « **Reply #28 on:** September 21, 2004, 06:48:17 AM »

I still carry, from time to time, my '70's era Model 80 .38 Spl. It is a Model 10 clone. The only problem I've ever had with it is after about 100rds it gets a bit sticky. But, the more I clean it the more rounds I can put through it without this happening. Maybe they made them better back then. I stay away from new guns altogether unless I can help it. My model 19 S&W duty revolvers were made in '76 and '87. Both work great. But one thing I will add, is if you are looking for S&W to put out a better NEW product, you had better check that gun CLOSELY. People in the field have had barrels fall off at the range.

LMM · « **Reply #29 on:** October 30, 2004, 01:06:05 PM »

Quote from: TC Shooter

I have been seriously considering a Taurus Tracker 22lr . Looked one over and it appeared to be well built and finished. Reading this thread has made me think twice!

I'm with ya. I was seriously looking at one recently at a local shop. Looked good, but after reading these problems I won't be buying any Taurus. Will stick with my Ruger's!