Author Topic: TC Contender super 14 rechamber  (Read 2547 times)

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Offline DEACONLLB

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TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« on: February 20, 2011, 10:18:20 AM »
In a package deal I picked up there is a super 14 high luster 44 mag barrel that has been rechambered to 444 marlin so the question is will the contender frame take the preasure from this round. I have looked in the reloading book and the cup runs any where from 30000 up to 40000 so any of the experts here have an answer to this. I have also compaired a number of contender rounds and there are a number that fall in this range inc. 44 mag. I am going to list it once I get a good answer but wont to make sure it will be safe. Thanks for your help. See my last post on some reloading I have played with

Deaconllb
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Offline Ladobe

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 10:30:08 AM »
With proper loads they are safe on the Contender.   But more than one nimrod has pushed them too far and stretched or blown up barrels/frames.    Why Bullerry, MGM TC and others no longer chamber Contender barrels in 444 Marlin.   TC not even for the Encore, but the others still do I believe.    I'd also find out who did the rechamber and their reputation for doing them right.
HTH
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 11:14:35 AM »
Have no way to find out who bid the job as the fellow I got it from had no Idea either but the job does look good but then again that really dont tell us any thing, Thanks for your input Larry.

Deaconllb
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533rd material ,air defense Oxnard AFB 1953-1955
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Offline Ladobe

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 06:26:56 PM »
NP pard, glad it was of some use.

Easy enough to have it checked by a machinist if you wanted to be sure, or if you have the equipment to do so.   

Been a heck of a lot of years since I had & shot my 444Marlin and 45-70 barrels.   Instead I went to the JDJ and SB wildcats basaed on the 444, and never looked back.   Steve at VVCG tried to talk me into doing the testing on the 45-70 based wildcats they wanted to bring out (for the hype of having their name on them), but I'd seen enough of their work by then to say no.
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 12:39:49 AM »
There should be no problem with the 444 Marlin in the Contender.  Approach maximum loads cautiously and stop and back down a little if the frame becomes at all hard to open.  J. D. Jones has based a number of his wildcats on the 444 Marlin cartridge (like the 375 JDJ) which he concocted with the Contender frame in mind.

It was implied above that there might also be a problem with the 444 Marlin in the Encore frame.  This is not even close to true.  The Encore system can even handle 460 S&W Magnum full house loads with a SAMI maximum pressure of 60,000 psi so you could even hotrod the 444 Marlin cartridge without breaking anything.

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2011, 03:06:54 AM »
I have looked in the reloading book and the 375 is listed for contender and the cup is a lot more than the 444 marlin. Was thinking that I might be able to reload it much like I do the 7mm Rem mag or reduced loads and be able to use it with no problems. Load it up like a 44mag but reduced a few grains and a lighter  bullet just wont to be safe. I use Hodgdons reduced loads for 7mm mag for my TCR 83 and they work fine Killed two deer last season, is almost the same load as a 7x57 mouser.
Keep the info coming and thanks

Deaconllb
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Offline Ladobe

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 07:50:24 AM »
Quote
There should be no problem with the 444 Marlin in the Contender.

A potentially dangerous statement without adding some qualification.  Shooting 45,000 psi or lower factory 444 Marlin ammo is one thing, and folks have got away with it for years on their Contenders before developing a problem.  But the 444 is easily capable of being loaded past what the Contender can stand up to, and has been too many times.    Lots of varibles in reloading... which materials used, technique, not to mention your particualr chamber, the condition of your frame/barrel, headspacing, etc, and the list goes on and on.    The 444 probably accounts for more Contender blow ups than any other cartridge (not fact, just personal observation from someone who has shot and reloaded for Contenders almost as long as anyone else has, and much longer than most).    IOW, 9 out 10 that I saw or heard about were 444 Marlin Contenders.

A better pressure indicator than a sticky frame with the Contender IMO is the very earliest signs of the rimfire firing pin/bushing on the case head of the brass.    You will often see that long before a frame becomes hard to open (positive proof that you have already pushed the load too far).   Naturally the brass itself plays a roll in how much pressure it takes to imprint it.   Regardless, I never understood folks pushing max (or over) loads in any firearm.   Doesn't equate to diddly down range, not enough to take the chances.

Quote
It was implied above that there might also be a problem with the 444 Marlin in the Encore frame.

Implied by the barrel makers.   I simply posted the facts of what they do and do not chamber now days with an assumption why.     They must have a reason though, and I'm sure they have more knowledge than you or I to base that decision on.



Quote
I have looked in the reloading book and the 375 is listed for contender and the cup is a lot more than the 444 marlin...

Please don't be mislead by pressure ratings when comparing one cartridge to another - that too is a dangerous assumption.   SAAMI, CIP, etc CUP, PSI, Strain, etc values are fine as far as they go (and rarely are interchangeable), but they are NOT the last word on what is and what is not safe in a Contender, particualrly your Contender.   While the Contender was designed mainly for low pressure large case head and high pressure small case head cartridges, there are many ramifications involved that allow some others to be safe and some others not to be for Contenders.   The ramifications of what the acceptable difference's are based on what makes them safe or not would take pages to discuss.   So I'll just add that for the 444 verses the 375JDJ, the later could safely run higher pressures in a Contender due to it running at lower back-pressures as a default of its design.   BTW, if I remember correctly JD once stated the 375JDJ was rated at 42,000 PSI in his Contender barrels.   Long time ago though so the memory could be foggy.   Regardless I never had presuure signs in any of the four 375JDJ barrels I had from the early 80's even shooting 270/300 grain bullets near or at the top of JD's loads for them, and the number of rounds fired between them had to be in the ten thousands because I shoot all of them often with a lot of rounds fired each time (ie, a typical range session with them was 200-300 rounds).

YMMV
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 09:23:58 AM »
Ladobe I value your vast experiance in the contenders and you keep a lot of us from blowing our guns or self up, so with all your knowlage is there any thing in the way of a rechamber this barrel could be done in or is it a strip off sights and locking lug and use as a paper weight. sure do not wont to unload it on some unsuspecting person and get someone hurt or worse yet killed.

Thanks
Deaconllb
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 11:33:40 AM »
Could you name one custom barrel maker that wouldn't offer the 444 Marlin in an Encore?  Match Grade Machine offers it.  T/C used to; the reason they don't now is, I believe, for efficiency and cost cutting and has nothing to do with safety.

For the record, I don't think I've ever seen a rimfire bushing indentation on a case I've shot in my Contender.  In my opinion, my sticky case extraction is probably indicative of less pressure than the aforesaid bushing indentation but, pressure signs can be different in different guns.

Offline Ladobe

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 03:44:54 PM »
Mr D,
None that I know of from those on my long list of safe Contender cartridges (which BTW does included the 444 with a * like a few others that have to be approached with caution on the Contender).    The 444 Marlin case is longer than the other 44's on the list, so none of them are doable in a rechambered 444 without a heck of a jump to the rifling.    IMO safety is entirely on the barrels current owner if they shoot it, so if someone buys/trades for a 444 Marlin best bet is they know it's potential problems in a Contender.   Telling them before the sale takes you out of it if they still buy it.   And you could require more of them before they could buy it too... just depends how far you want to CYA.

Mr G,
"Why Bullerry, MGM TC and others no longer chamber Contender barrels in 444 Marlin.   TC not even for the Encore, but the others still do I believe." 

Note the bold text.

It certainly could be that TC only dropped the 444 in the Encore due to low sales.   I was probably still thinking about the Contenders because of what has been implied by the barrel makers about the 444 in them...    ???   ::)  Me bad!

Larry
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline stoutstuff

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 06:56:03 PM »
Deaconllb,

I've seen 444 Marlin barrels around for the Contender. I have a Marlin levergun chambered in it and find the round somewhat fascinating. A lot of banter as to which is better, the 444 or the 45-70. The same precaution used with the 45-70 would likely apply. If I remember correctly, most have said that factory ammo is lower pressure and useable in the contender. Then again, some of the new Hornady loads are hopped up from the factory. Probably a "BLAST" to shoot! I'd like to try one sometime.

Stoutstuff

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 05:51:31 AM »
A friend and I were talking about this barrel last night and was wondering if a person could just load it with black powder and very light loads. Maybe use tripple 7 or even ffg, was just a thought. Don't they load the 45-70 this way, would have to find some specks on what would work. Another thing that I was thinking that in doing this rechamber you have remove metal that could also cause a chamber to let go, not a good thing.

Deaconllb
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Offline Ladobe

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 03:34:49 PM »
Black in a 444?   That's a can do, no different than the 45-70 and others.

Marshall (Beartooth Bullets) was working on a set of articles featuring the 444 Marlin Lever Guns 8-10 years ago that was suppose to include shooting cast bullets with black powder in the 444.   Didn't have much interest myself so never saw the articles if he did do them.   So, don't know any specifics, but it would be a place to start researching.

But if you are going to keep it, you know enough now to do so safely with smokeless loads.

To rechamber a 444 you wouldn't be taking away any more metal, you'd need to be adding it.     ;D ;)
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Dezynco

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2011, 01:31:12 AM »
Deacon,
I think you would be safe to shoot the 444 now that you have gained a bit of knowledge here.  I'm positive that the barrel would be safe with reduced handloads, but I would stay away from any factory ammo unless you're sure it's safe.

If you want to get rid of the barrel, you might spend a little money at the local jewelery shop and have them engrave "REDUCED HANDLOADS ONLY" onto the side of the barrel.  That will help to keep your mind at ease, and warn any future owners that the 444 is potentially too much for the Contender.

Think about it....I could have a Contender barrel chambered in some beast like the 458 Winchester Mag as long as I handloaded for it to keep the pressure down (not that doing so would make any good sense if you could find a gunsmith crazy enough to do so).  But the potential for an accident is there if some nimrod down the road doesn't know about it.

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 09:57:02 AM »
I have read on the net till my eyes are about shot and there is a lot of info out there in reloading for the 444 Marlin in a contender. The powder to use seems to be unique or RL7 and a 265 grn bullet and these are the components that seem to work the best although some are using T7, also still doing research on the subject.I also find that trail boss can be used in about any of the big kickers in a reduced load.

Deaconllb
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Offline stoutstuff

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 03:53:40 AM »
Deaconllb,

You really need to whip up some loads and give us a range report! I will most likely own one of those barrels someday and need to know how one shoots.

Stoutstuff

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2011, 10:42:35 AM »
Well in order to whip up some loads I will need dies, brass, powder and bullets, none of which I have at present. I did take the barrel over to my sons machine shop and had the barrel engraved in small letters 444 Marlin Reduced Loads Only. We took off the 44 mag and it now reads Thompson Center Arms  444 Marlin Reduced Loads Only
                                                                                                               Super 14
We left the factory engraving just removed 44 mag and added the above now if I ever deside to get rid of it hopefully some nimrod wont load it up with hot loads, there is a picture of one on the net that was blown up using factory loads. not pretty.
I am still looking at all the options for reloading and there is a lot of info. on the net from fellows playing with a rechamber super 14. I also found that the older barrels had 8 lands in place of 6 like the newer 44 mags.

Deaconllb
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Offline RicMic

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 10:14:32 AM »
According to the Hornady #3 reloading manual, when discussing the 45-70 in a Marlin rifle, they said that the max pressure of the 444 Marlin was 44,400 CUP.  They were using that as a basis for hotter 45-70 loads in the Marlin model 1895.  All of that having been said, comparing the #7 manual with the #3 I found that the load data for the 444 is a bit less now (about 5%).  The case head size of the 444 Marlin is the same as the 44 Mag.  The 44 Mag max pressure is 43,500 CUP (36k psi).  If both were working at the same pressure, would the back thrust be the same?  Or would there be a different dymanic involved?

Thanks
RicMic
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 11:43:51 AM »
According to the Hornady #3 reloading manual, when discussing the 45-70 in a Marlin rifle, they said that the max pressure of the 444 Marlin was 44,400 CUP.  They were using that as a basis for hotter 45-70 loads in the Marlin model 1985.  All of that having been said, comparing the #7 manual with the #3 I found that the load data for the 444 is a bit less now (about 5%).  The case head size of the 444 Marlin is the same as the 44 Mag.  The 44 Mag max pressure is 43,500 CUP (36k psi).  If both were working at the same pressure, would the back thrust be the same?  Or would there be a different dymanic involved?

There is no different dynamic involved.  If one is a knowledgeable reloader and reloads cautiously watching for pressure signs, a 444 Marlin cartridge can be shot in a Contender just as safely as can a 44 Rem. Mag. cartridge.  Of course, you can fit a LOT more powder in a 444 Marlin case than you can in a 44 Rem. Mag. case.  By the way, though the measurements in the book are the same, near the head, a 444 Marlin case is slightly larger in diameter than a 44 Rem. Mag. case.

Other examples of this phenomenon are:

1.  The 45-70 which can be shot in a Contender but not at the same pressure with which it may be shot in an Encore.  It's also well known, that a load that's acceptable in an Encore might damage an old trapdoor model.

2.  The 7X57mm Mauser loads are typically published at significantly less pressure than a modern firearm can take in defference to old military surplus rifles some of which were made in the 1800s and early 1900s.

3.  The 416 Rigby can be shot safely in an Encore providing standard SAMI pressure specs are adhered to.  The 338 Lapua Magnum can't be chambered in an Encore even though the cartridge diameter is the same because it operates at a significantly higher pressure.

I could give many more examples of published loads that are anemic for various reasons.

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber to 444 marlin
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011, 02:23:43 PM »
Called and talked to a powder tec. at Hodgdons and he tells me to use a 240 grn XTP Hornady bullet with the Trail boss powder and will have no problems at all in a contender said you could not get enough powder in the case to build the pressure that would be dangers very easy to use and about the same recoil as a 44 Mag. What he said you do to find the correct load is to mark the case to the depth that the bullet will seat fill case to that point  then dump powder in scales and weigh, that would be your max load and you can work down from there said you dont get the muzzle blast that you do on a 44 mag and is a fun powder to use. all the info is also on their web site under trail boss powder.

Deaconllb
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533rd material ,air defense Oxnard AFB 1953-1955
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Offline Jason F

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2011, 01:11:12 PM »
i have fired a couple hundred rounds out of my rechambered 44 super 14 ,ssk did the work and i have had no trouble at all,i use 32.5 grains of imr4198 and a 240 xtp,and it shoots great,not alot of kick ,had it magnaported at the same time
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline Jason F

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2011, 01:13:53 PM »
i also shoot the same load of powder out of my factory t/c barrel chambered in 375 jdj,with no trouble
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2011, 01:20:31 PM »
i have fired a couple hundred rounds out of my rechambered 44 super 14 ,ssk did the work and i have had no trouble at all,i use 32.5 grains of imr4198 and a 240 xtp,and it shoots great,not alot of kick ,had it magnaported at the same time

That's a light load, the Hornady 8th lists the start load of 29.1gr @1700fps, 32.4gr @ 1800fps in the 15" Encore barrel, their max load of IMR4198 runs 2100fps.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Jason F

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2011, 01:24:41 PM »
i dont like to push it to far ,i have heard to many horror stories
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011, 01:45:55 PM »
That's probably a good way to go.  ;) I did a little research on the 444 Contender, the blow up Deacon referred to appeared to be caused by the barrel failing at the scope base mount holes, not the frame failing, FWIW.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2011, 08:54:47 AM »
Bump to top please
Deaconllb
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533rd material ,air defense Oxnard AFB 1953-1955
Pastor of the  CBCG-Fellowship group Tulsa Oklahoma.

Offline DEACONLLB

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Re: TC Contender super 14 rechamber
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2011, 09:17:10 AM »
Well thanks to one of the fellows on the forum I was able to pick up all the reloading stuff for this contender 444 Marlin rechamber barrel and after talking to Hodgdon on the phone I went with trail boss and followed their information on their web site. The max load was 17 grns so I reduced it down to 12 and worked up setteled on 13 grns for target shooting and 14 for close in hunting from a blind for now but will have to do some more testing on recoil. The recoil for 13 grns. is about like a 357 mag and the report or muzzle blast is much less than a 357 mag. The 14 grn load is a little less felt recoil than a 44 mag and about the same muzzleblast as the 357 mag. am using the 240 grn jacket hp so when we get a little worm weather and some sun I am going to set up a couple of 2x6 back to back and see what kind of penetration I am getting at 60 yrds. Would be nice to know what vel. I am getting but I would think down around 850, well any way it is fun to shoot may even try a couple of 15 grn loads but I wont to stay a little under the 17 grn max. any one else use the trail boss in hunting loads. I did load up a few 7x30 waters and it was fun to shoot also did one 45-70 and it was also pleasent on recoil. I still need to come up with a good sight am thinking on one of the fast fire type. or may stay with a reg. pistol scope.

Deaconllb
Korean war vet. NRA Member
Fourth fighter wing K14 Kimpo Korea 1952 Fourth but first, the mig killers.
533rd material ,air defense Oxnard AFB 1953-1955
Pastor of the  CBCG-Fellowship group Tulsa Oklahoma.