Author Topic: .358 Craig - It's ALIVE! 1.8" Case Length - NEF Handi Round (Read 5076 times)

Ololique · « **on:** April 08, 2011, 04:54:05 AM »

A while back I posted some info on making a .358 wildcat based on the 45-70 case. About half way through, I changed the parent case to .348 Win for some extra room. Anyway, after a LONG 4 month wait from Hornady, the custom dies arrived last night. It takes 2 form dies, a full length die, and a fire-form operation to obtain the .358 Craig case. Case length is 1.8", rimmed, and hopefully a legal deer round in Indiana soon. I haven't got out to the range yet for chronograph work, but I am expecting 180gr @ 2700fps, 200gr @ 2500fps, and 225gr at 2400fps. I hope to validate those numbers soon!

Here's a picture of the forming steps, with the exception of the fireform in process. You can see from case #3 to #4 that the taper has been blown out. I'll keep posting information as it becomes available, probably a two week process at best. That's a .44 Mag case for comparison.

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Ololique · « **Reply #1 on:** April 08, 2011, 08:37:28 AM »

Range report for anyone who is interested...

Fired case capacity is 70.5gr water

Using low-end 35 Whelen Data to keep pressure around the 40K CUP mark with the new IMR8208XBR

My Max Loads -
200gr Hornady SP - 2575fps
225gr Sierra BTSP - 2450fps

It's definitely got more horsepower as indicated by the chrono on loads that went well above my max ceiling. In a falling block or Siamese mauser, this thing would easily run with the .35 Whelen. For me and my NEF, no real need and it will beat the hell out of the gun.

Ololique · « **Reply #2 on:** April 11, 2011, 04:04:30 AM »

2nd Range Report:

225gr Sierra's, as I suspected, were right on the edge of being too long to properly stabilize in my barrel (NEF .357). The groups were not very good until upper levels loads were reached, and then groups were still 3+" at 100yds.

200gr Hornady spitzers, again as I suspected, worked very well. A good charge of IMR 8208XBR produced 2500fps with a 3 shot, 1.25" group at 100yds. On a less windy day, with a more stable rest, I'm guessing it will go sub-MOA. Tweaking bullet to land distance may also produce tighter groups.

This testing was done with a rechambered NEF Handi .357 Mag. Pacific Tool made the reamer, Wayne York did the rechambering of the barrel, and Hornady did the custom die set. All said, I spent around $550, which is pretty cheap considering everything involved with getting a new wildcat off the ground. In all, this makes for a very nice .358 Win equivalent, Indiana legal 1.8" case deer cartridge. It gives me a 300yd range with a Handi-Rifle while keeping pressures and case thrust low enough not to rattle the gun apart, ~40,000 CUP.

HuntMeister · « **Reply #3 on:** April 11, 2011, 05:40:04 AM »

THANKS for the report! Interesting round.
Now lets hope they legalize the 1.8" proposal!!

Reed1911 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 11, 2011, 06:14:13 AM »

If you don't mind, Will you post a copy of the reamer specs? PTG will send you a copy of the diagram if you don't already have it.

Ololique · « **Reply #5 on:** April 11, 2011, 08:11:27 AM »

Ololique · « **Reply #6 on:** April 11, 2011, 08:16:10 AM »

Lon371 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 12, 2011, 02:13:16 PM »

Ololique

Very cool little round. Good job.

Lonny

mechanic · « **Reply #8 on:** April 12, 2011, 02:17:35 PM »

Way Kool! Hope you get to tag some deer with it.

Ben

briannmilewis · « **Reply #9 on:** April 12, 2011, 08:41:19 PM »

Been thinking about the same thing but using cheap 30-30 cases.

Ololique · « **Reply #10 on:** April 13, 2011, 04:34:32 AM »

Neat straight-walled case! Have you ran any capacity numbers on it to see how much internal volume you have? I'd be interested in seeing what that would be and finding potential powders. How far have you taken the .357 Indy? Is it up and running yet?

briannmilewis · « **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2011, 07:58:50 PM »

Thanks for the compliment. The 223 Short project meets a lot of "easy" and "low cost" solutions, but it is still more complicated than I would like a wildcat project to be. The 357 Indy is still a concept, but what I was looking for were other wildcat designs that could use cheap parent cases (30-30 trimmed with a little Harbor Freight cutoff saw), a rechambered Handi 357 or Rossi Wizard with absolute minimal DIY smith work (trim the extractor for the larger case rim), can be legal all over for deer, have more oomph than a 357 Maxi, hold not too much powder as I am a recoil wuss, and be able to have my GBO 223 Short partner in crime Jebbman machine a Redding 30-30 FL die, replace the guts with a 357 tapered expander, and use Lee 357 mag expander, powder, seater and crimp dies in a Lee Classic 4 Station Turret Press. In other words, do it all as cheap as possible.

It should have a capacity of 25% more than a 357 Max or 1.79cc x 1.25 = 2.24cc, which in turn is 91% of a 30-30's capacity of 2.45ccs. It would be a little less than the capacity of a 22 Hornet (0.79cc) x 3, so I would be able to get about 240 rounds per pound of L'il Gun for instance. With all the other costs savings involved, in addition if I use mild loads, then the life of the straight walled case, cheap bullets, and frugal powder use would add up to a very economical shooter over both the short and long terms, considering it is a wildcat.

I am guessing powders that would work the best would be anything that drove a 357 Max accurately.

The question about getting a reamer made up is do I have it throated like a 357 Mag or a 358 Win? If I go with the 357 Mag throat then the Hornady Flextips and any other 357 mag bullet will be good to go, and that is all sorts of choices.

I also think it would be a really good candidate for suppression with the right powders and wise sub-sonic bullet choices.

At least I am working again after 2 years, so I can slate this as #2 on my to-do list. If I am lucky I will have this one shooting no later than early fall. The 223 Short should be shooting no later than late Spring, my version will test light bullets first, Shane is testing the heavier ones.

Bull45cal · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2011, 06:45:36 AM »

Brian,

My experience with .30-30 brass has not been very favorable. I haven't gotten good case life, because of the thin brass. "The question about getting a reamer made up is do I have it throated like a 357 Mag or a 358 Win?" Are saying, that you are deciding if you should use the .358 bullets, or the .357 bullets? I would go with something designed for the .358 bullets since there is more variety on the heavy end. To my recollection, the .357 bullets are very limited in weight. Just my two cents.

Later,
Shane

Bull45cal · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2011, 06:47:09 AM »

Ololique,

I like your cartridge. Good work. Has anyone told Indyeyedoc about this thing?

Ololique · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2011, 04:16:07 AM »

Thanks! I'm not sure... I've seen him post here before, but I've not had any direct contact with him.

Spector · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2011, 05:40:04 PM »

Am I the only one who thinks a .358 based on the 7.62x54 case shortened to 1.8'' would make a nice little cartridge?

Mosin Nagants are still cheap platforms to build on. A Timney trigger and that would give both good trigger weight plus an easy to use safety.

In fact .375, .416 or even .430 should work well too. It could still be magazine feed with only magazine modifications above the wood line that would not be seen when the rifle is assembled. No bolt face/extractor work and the cartridge interrupter wouldn't even have to be modified......Mike

Spanky · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2011, 09:53:59 PM »

That 357 Indy looks good. It would make a great deer round.

Spanky

briannmilewis · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2011, 03:44:25 PM »

Quote from: Spanky on May 08, 2011, 09:53:59 PM

That 357 Indy looks good. It would make a great deer round.

Spanky

I love the look of the 358 Craig.

The 357 Indy should have about 19% more case capacity than a 357 Maxi.

I also drew up a 357 WCF, a tapered full length 30-30 case. It would be a 38-55 but using 357 mag bullets.

Again, it is all in the pursuit of a simple H&R 357 Mag rechamber, and pressures not exceeding 357 Mag, so can be done on a SB1 frame...hopefully.

Spanky · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2011, 07:29:56 PM »

I'd like to see both both of those 357 cartridges come to life Brian. Are you planning on having reamers and dies made up for them? I'd be very interested in renting from you. Especially the 357 WCF.

Spanky

briannmilewis · « **Reply #19 on:** June 05, 2011, 04:15:58 PM »

Sorry I did not reply sooner, must have missed it in my list of things to reply.

I am thinking it is a good idea to get both a die reamer and chamber finish reamer to make life easy. I could then ask Jedman to shorten a 30-30 die set for the Indy case, and just ream one to spec. for the 357 WCF. If we used Redding dies we would just have to swap out the decap sizer for a tapered one, then I could ask Larry T if he would rechamber the barrels. For bullet seating I think we could just use 357 mag dies, on both cases.

So rather than have the expense of custom dies, the die reamer would be a $150+ of extra expense up front, but then anyone could shorten and/or ream a die set (I think) and save a bundle.

I also have found out 375 brass is much stronger than 38-55, but expensive as all get out. So will go with 30-30 parent and see how long the brass lasts.

But we have to get that 223 Short done first, or is it within the rules of wildcatting that you are allowed more than one project at a time?

P.S. We suspect the die reamer will take out the die case hardening, if so, can we get that heat treated to get it back or should we bother, just use case lube even on carbide dies that have been reamed. I am not familiar with the life of dies so some more experienced folks need to respond on this. Jed has already pondered the question, just wonder what others think so we can make a determination.

Thanks for your interest.

Just for fun I drew up a few more "Indys". The 430 and 500 are simple H&R rechambers. The 458 might have to be a stub.

Enjoy.

dave29 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2011, 02:24:39 PM »

Any news on the .358 Craig lately?

I am really interested in this. I know I contacted you a couple months ago to possible rent your reamer from you and order some dies, but we have since then moved into a new house and I haven't had time to do anything.

I would like to get one of my .357 handi's reamed out to this caliber and buy some Craig dies.

Thanks, Dave

indyeyedoc · « **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2011, 11:32:12 AM »

Ololique - Very cool round, this is right up my alley. I'm almost happy Indiana has stupid regulations so that it challenges us a bit to come up with something different. At least for those of us who like to squander their time and resources on odd wildcats. Seriously though, your round looks great....

Specter - I too have looked into modifying the 7.62x54 to a 35 cal wildcat. I'm sure its been done in Scandanavia but I can't find anything about it. I have made up a dummy round which loooks a lot like what Ololique created but the neck is questionably short. I like the idea of starting with a $69 action, though. The .358 WSSM I'm just finishing up started with a $400!!! Savage action. Ouch. It would be so much easier and less expensive if the powers that be just used some sense and specified a few common cartridges that could be used ie 35 Rem, 30-30, 358 win etc.

Ololique · « **Reply #22 on:** August 23, 2011, 04:54:15 AM »

I've been out shooting and playing with my .358 Craig all summer. It's a fantastic round! Plenty of power, plenty accurate... For a Handi platform, there really isn't going to be anything better for Indiana deer hunting. It's easily the equivalent of the .358 Winchester which has been a proven performer for years. Couple that with the ability to use a relatively cheap break-open rifle instead of a bolt gun, and what's not to like?

briannmilewis · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2011, 09:32:22 PM »

Congratulations. Next spring and summer will be be our time with the 223 Short. Wildcatters rule dude!

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #24 on:** May 06, 2012, 03:05:22 AM »

The 357 Indy would be a good way to bring the 357 max barrels back to life if the brass is no longer available down the road. I think I have enough Max brass to last me, but others may be able to use the modification. With a custom chamber, I don't see the case life of 30-30 brass as being an issue. And if you get 2-4 fewer loadings out of the 30-30 brass, so what?

It's cheap and easy to find, more so than 375 Win. or 38-55 brass of which I also own. DP