Author Topic: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....  (Read 2550 times)

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Offline Land_Owner

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I have a Thompson Auto-Ordnance 1911.  It double taps.  It does not care what ammo is used.  I took it to a competent gunsmith.  He honed some 'spurs' off of the seer.  It still double tapped.  He said it was probably due to "limp-wristing" the gun.  He took it back and replaced the triple spring.  The first two shots out of the "repaired" gun (2nd attempt) was a double tap.

I hold two handed and depress the trigger only once but still get off two successive "automatic-fire" shots - within milliseconds of one another (way too fast for me to pull the trigger twice).

WTH is "limp-wristing", am I doing it, and how do I unlearn/combat it to see if it is me or still something in the gun?

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 10:14:23 AM »
limp wristing can cause stove-pipes but I never heard of it causing double-tapping.
that sounds like mechanical problem to me.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 10:53:08 AM »
LW is when you hold the gun loose and don't give the weapon a STIFF wrist to recoil aginst. I don't know it all but don't see it causing DT. I would suggest your gun needs a different smith as some are better with some guns , no cut to the smith.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 12:43:35 PM »
Sounds mechanical to me, too. Does it double tap when someone else experienced with shooting 1911's (shooting with a locked wrist) shoots it?

Offline spruce

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 01:40:16 PM »
If it's mechanical it seems odd that it stops malfunctioning everytime after 2 shots???
It just seems logical that whatever mechanical malfunction caused it to fire the second shot would also cause it to continue with the 3rd, 4th, etc, etc rounds in the magazine.
 
Do you press the trigger with the first pad of your finger?  If so try shooting it using the first joint of your finger on the trigger and make a conscience effort to hold the trigger to the rear after firing. 
Done properly "double taps" sound almost like one shot, so yes the trigger can be pressed two times very, very fast!

Offline Savage

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 03:39:59 PM »
I suspect your smith is correct. What's likely happening is, during the recoil cycle your trigger finger is moving forward enough to reset the trigger and then fire the second shot. Then------you consciously move the  finger forward in  the trigger guard and a third shot is not fired. I have seen this happen a couple of times with single trigger O/U shotguns. To find out for sure, have someone else shoot the pistol. If the pistol doubles with another shooter, you have a mechanical problem. Good luck.
Savage
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 02:13:07 AM »
or point the gun at a safe back stop pull the trigger and hold it down as tight as you can . Make the effort to hold it down not aim etc.
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Offline LanceR

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 04:29:51 AM »
Land_Owner, I hope you can get to the bottom of this.  It's always somewhat unnerving not knowing what to expect when you pull the trigger.

First if I may, what you are experiencing is "doubling".  Double tapping is an often desirable self defense and combat technique and it can be a lifesaver while doubling is, as you know, just plan undesirable at any time.

When an auto-loading pistol cycles the designer intended for the grip frame to be held relatively solidly and stationary so that the energy of the fired shot could cycle the slide and perform the steps of unlocking (if appropriate), extracting, ejecting, cocking, feeding, chambering and (where appropriate) locking.

If a shooter has a relatively soft grip and stance due to loose wrists, unlocked and unsupported elbows or, in some cases, a flaw in the actual grip on the pistol the flip of the pistol in recoil uses so much energy moving the entire pistol and your arms that insufficient energy is available for the action to cycle properly.  This is aggravated by pistols with fairly high bore lines and heavy recoiling masses-which the M1911 has.

All this is why a soft grip and stance (AKA limp wristing) will usually present itself as a failure to feed or eject.  In "stove piping" the extractor tilts the case towards the ejection port but the slide does not retract far enough to kick the case free so it get pushed forward until it is trapped and stands up like a stove pipe.  With a failure to feed the case got ejected but the slide didn't retract far enough to strip another round out of the magazine.

I have match tuned a lot of M1911A1 pistols and tightened up a lot of them for special duties back in the bad old days before the Army just let us buy tight pistols "off the shelf".  Without your pistol in hand and without knowing you gunsmith it would be useless to speculate on any possible mechanical cause.  There are very few things that would cause the pistol to double.  They are generally well know and fairly easy to check so I suspect that your gun plumber has checked them.  It is worth noting that anything mechanical that would allow the pistol to double would also allow it to be fully automatic.  If there are still rounds in the chamber or magazine after a double then the pistol is very unlikely to be at fault.

In your case it is possible that your grip or some other technique at the point of firing is allowing the frame to recoil away from your trigger finger and when the slide runs forward to battery the inertia of the slide pushed the frame (and the trigger) back into your trigger finger. 

My experience has been that two of the more common reasons for this are that:

For all of our gun handling lives we've had the mantra of "Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are in the act of shooting" pounded into us.  Even though the shooter is, in fact, in the act of shooting while the pistol is recoiling a lot of shooters tend to fling their trigger finger forward a bit as soon as they feel the trigger break.  If the shooter does not fling it far enough the finger is sometimes going to hit the trigger during counter-recoil. 

The other common reason is that if a shooter's wrists are not being held pretty firmly the pistol will flip up and rotate around the top of the shooters palm or the pivot point of the wrist.  Either case can move the frame out of position and result in trigger finger contact on counter-recoil.

I am somewhat hesitant to give any advice on grip and stance without being with you and observing you shoot.  Assuming that a "limp wrist" is the root cause of the doubling, too many of the possible causes tend to be interrelated and so they cannot usually be truly fixed without changing more than one thing. 

With that said, the easiest way to affirm that the pistol is operating correctly and that the issue has to do with the shooter is similar to one already suggested.  Load some three round magazines.  With the pistol pointed at a safe backstop concentrate on pulling and holding the trigger fully rearward and keep it there.  If need be, just mash it to make sure.  After the first shot and when the pistol has settled down from recoil maintain your grip with the other three fingers and slowly release the trigger until you feel the trigger reset.  Now, concentrate on the weight of the trigger pull and pull it rearward and hold it fully to the rear.  Repeat that cycle-slowly release until set and pull the trigger back for the third shot.

Did it double?  If not, repeat the exercise several times.  That should confirm or deny whether the pistol is functioning properly or whether your grip may need work.  They reason for the three round magazine is so that you can get an idea if the pistol is mechanically sound while if it does double or fire a burst you won't wind up sending the last few shots over the backstop.

What you are feeling when you only just set the trigger is the second stage of the trigger and on most M911s it is less than two pounds.  Notice also how short the amount of trigger travel is between setting the trigger and releasing it.  You can see why a loose grip or a trigger finger flopping around in front of the trigger can cause problems. 

I am a retired Master Marksmanship Trainer, longtime bullseye and combat marksmanship shooter and coach, yadda, yadda, yadda, BS, BS, BS, ad nauseum.  I'd be glad to talk or PM about your grip if you think that would help.

Good luck

Lance

PS: I should have asked. is the gun new or new to you?   If it is new, have you had experience with similar pistols and loads? 


Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 01:06:34 PM »
Lance,

Terrific response.  One I can understand.  I am a 25-year single shot rifleman who is prone to "peaking" (as in golf) to see my result on game and the target.  I am, by comparison, new to semi-auto pistols.  The Thompson 1911 sat in the safe for 3-years with its front (peened) sight missing.  It has always doubled with all brands of ammo.

Currently I am shooting 45 ACP 180 gr. cast 50/50 wheelweights/lead "Devastator" Hollow Points over 5.5 grains of  IMR 700X.  It is a stout report and recoil attesting to approaching the optimum pressure of the powder.  My SST Colt Defender (Commander length) eats them up and spits them out with unerring regularity.  The Thompson doubles and fails to cock the hammer with these rounds since the Smith's repairs.

My Smith says the Thompson was made for 230 grain hardball round nose ammo, and I would not disagree.  So perhaps my hand loads are not suitable for the Thompson or another lighter weight spring of 18 or 15 pounds is more appropriate for these hand loads.  Too light a spring and too "active" a round is not good for longevity I am told.

I can guess that my grip is probably not appropriate.  No formal training in that department.  Perhaps I need to locate a "coach" for some pointers.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 01:41:50 PM »
turn  yourself  in
you are now  knowingly in possession  of a full auto machine  gun


http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=142924
this is a must see video........all  kidding aside....dismantle the gun and take it in to be fixed


stick  with your revolvers
they  NEVER  double tap............sure


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNlNGkzh1Vk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4OE78spknk&NR=1
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DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
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AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 01:53:31 PM »
As others have said limp wrist will casue function problems.
Either a stove pipe or failure to fully extract or to feed.
Lets say a gun need 2" of recoil to fully function.  If you limp wrist and allow the gun to move 1" in your hand and the slide moves 1"  = 2" in recoil and the gun will only do what happens in 1" of recoil.
I wonder if the double tap comes from a trigger finger that stops when the sear breaks and the recoil takes your finger off the trigger enough so it will reset and the slide going forward has you pulling the trigger giving you a shot.
Try pulling the trigger all the way and make an effort to hold the trigger back during recoil.
I had a pistol where we glued a small block to the back of the trigger to stop all over travel and I was having a similar problem.
Allow yourself to have a little over travel.

Offline shvlhead.45

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 08:15:31 PM »
Land Owner,
There is one way to determine if there is a mechanical problem, do a function test.  Here is a link that will spell out the steps for you  (http://coolgunsite.com/funcheck/function.htm).  If it fails the function check, you have a mechanical problem that needs fixed.
 
Usually limp wristing causes a the pistol to short stroke and fail to extract and eject which leads to the stove pipe condition mentioned earlier. 
 
v/r
Shvlhead.45

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 07:51:35 AM »
shvlhead...your link is disconnected and requires a "www" in front of "coolgunsite".  I Googled and found coolgunsite.  Thanks for the insight.  This should help.

mcwoodduck...I fully understand the physics of 2" required and only 1" allowed.  Makes perfect sense.  I am going to take some more range time with 230 grain hardball RN factory ammo, 200 grain cast SWC's and 180 grain cast HP's in order to understand my grip and the mechanics.
 
45-70.gov...as you already know, I am not "transferring" the gun to anyone.  I am working on a solution.  I think owning a fully automatic firearm is pretty darn cool.  Yes, BATFE wants a pound of flesh to force "legal" ownership, I hope they get a life, but I didn't make this gun this way although I am trying to correct it.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 11:30:09 AM »
When you do a function test.
No mag take the gun and pull the trigger.  With the trigger fully back (Pulled) cycle the slide keeping the trigger depressed.  Does the hammer fall?  If so you have a sear problem.  The sear is not enguaging.  Could be the sear or the spring.  I do not know the 1911 as well as I should. 
If not how much release is needed to reset the sear?  If you are talking less than a 1/8 of an inch you may have recoil setting the sear off by having the gun move in your hand under the recoil and setting off the gun.
If this is the case the sear and trigger that were polished may need to be replaced as too much may have been taken off in the polish.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 02:54:53 AM »
You might tear it down and look for trash . years ago I saw one that the spring broke . The spring has 3 legs , one with an L on the end. The small piece that made the L broke off and got lodged in the action. The gun went full auto ( a real hand full ) . It was on the last couple rounds SOOOO another mag was  tried . as the slide went int bat. on the first round it fired full auto. The gun was taken apart and the broken part fell out. Someone had some parts so the spring was replaced and everything worked fine. Had forgot as it had to be almost 30 years ago .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jcn59

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2011, 06:46:19 AM »
My older Auto-Ordnance works perfect with ALL my handloads including hot JHP 185s.  I've had it 15 years or so, & bought it used.
Vote them all out, EVERY election!
 
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Offline no guns here

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2011, 06:55:20 AM »
Personally, based on some of what has been in the news the past few years with guys getting convicted for having a broken gun shoot more than once per trigger pull; AND seeing that you have now published that you have the same thing happening; if I were in your shoes I would disassemble and ship to a smith that specializes in 1911's or back to the factory.  It would sure be nice to be able to have another shooter put some rounds down range to verify that it is the gun and not the shooter, but in this day and age, you might be in danger of an unintended court date if you did that.
 
NGH
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 07:27:54 AM »
Personally, based on some of what has been in the news the past few years with guys getting convicted for having a broken gun shoot more than once per trigger pull; AND seeing that you have now published that you have the same thing happening; if I were in your shoes I would disassemble and ship to a smith that specializes in 1911's or back to the factory.  It would sure be nice to be able to have another shooter put some rounds down range to verify that it is the gun and not the shooter, but in this day and age, you might be in danger of an unintended court date if you did that.
 
NGH




glad to see  i am not the only paranoid one here
lets  all just agree....this  was a legal  ''bump fire''
and  this  gun  is  just like all other  1911
[get it in another shop  ASAP]


we  know  he is an  honest, respectable citizen
but  that doesn't seem to matter some times
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline no guns here

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 09:24:53 AM »
If I were near him I would shoot it myself to verify, but then, I trust myself to keep it down range and on-target and if I did manage to hurt myself I am not stupid enough to sue or anything like that.  However, if someone DID manage to get shot on accident, the hospital/doctor is obligated to report the firearms related injury and then things get STUPID in a hurry.
 
No sense being a career building case for some overeducated and under common sensed prosecutor with an anti-gun axe to grind in the public arena of criminal law and the media.
 
 
NGH
"I feared for my life!"

Offline Mikey

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2011, 02:29:48 AM »
Land Owner:  I was going to wait until the majority of the responses were in and you had some good information to go by but since the 'dose of paranoia' has been sprinkled I am getting into this.
 
Do not let fear sway your decision making.  All you have is a problemmatic pistol that doubles on you, you don't have a dang machine pistol or anything like that. 
 
Now - the loads that your short 45 shoots, the 185 gn cast over 700X powder may, for some reason work fine in your Colt Defender but may not reliably cycle your Auto Ordnance; even though this is a near max load for that bullet, the overall charge may not be sufficient to completely cycle your action on the full size 45, resulting in the hammer following the slide into battery and causing a discharge. 
 
I would try your Auto Ordnace with some mil-spec 230 gn ball with just 3 rounds in the magazine and see if it doubles again.  If the pistol doubles the first two shots with mil-spec ball even after a couple of trys, then I believe you have a poor connection between your sear and hammer which allows the hammer to follow the slide forward for a double but then for some reason manages to connect for reliable cycling after that. 
 
If the pistol continues to double, get it fixed or replaced.  If you choose to work on the  pistol yourself, which is a very good way to get to know the workings of a 1911, I would recommend a Chip McCormick hammer, sear, mainspring and trigger group, along with a Kings drop in beaver-tail grip safety and tune the piece yourself.
 
As for the gunsmith - find another one; this one is not competent. He should never have said that 'limp wristing' causes doubles if he knew what he was talking about.  Limp wristing causes jams by failing to provide a stable platform (hand, wrist, arm) against which the pistol can recoil, just the opposite of what you experience with the doubles.  Limp wristing may just as often cause or allow the pistol to literally jump out of your hand and it does not sound as though this is what is happening to you.
 
Again, do not let the 'salts of paranoia' confuse or frighten you, just get the dang thing fixed for your own piece of mind knowing that you have a reliable handgun.  And, if you can't find a competant gunsmith, and I mean a competant one, in your neck of the woods then order the parts and we will walk and talk ya through it.  The Auto Ordnance pistols are basic, reliable mil-spec 1911s.  If, for some reason you got one with poorly matching parts, those parts can be replaced - that's why they make those pistols according to patterns and within tolerances. 
 
Try the mil-spec ammo test first and then let us know.  Mikey.

Offline Savage

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2011, 08:08:55 AM »
Guess it would have been simpler to describe operator induced doubling as "Bump Firing". It should be eliminated as a possibility before pursuing mechanical problems as it takes little time to check. Believe me folks, it happens.
Savage
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Offline gray wolf

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Re: Please explain "limp-wristing" a handgun to produce double taps....
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2011, 03:52:12 PM »
Your pistol is designated as a semi  auto,
one shot per pull and release of the trigger.  If it is in fact malfunctioning and not operator error then it could go full auto--not a fun thing.
Fun perhaps--but very illegal. Let it happen with the wrong person next to or near you and you will have a lot more problems than fun.
  It's your responsibility to find out if you are pulling the trigger twice or your pistol has a problem, if you don't --you and your pistol may have more of a problem than you want.
  Hammer sear engagement,-- dis connector, --
not enough  pressure on the sear spring, worn chipped sear, could be a variety of things.  Get it to a good smith--get it fixed if it's broke.