Author Topic: 500gr cast from 45-70??? (Read 3264 times)

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **on:** August 16, 2011, 05:42:43 PM »

got the mold and wanting to know if anyone else shoots this and how its working, and any load advice would be great. Its going out of a standard handi-rifle barrel.

Cascade Pete · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:42:43 AM »

Hang onto Your shoulder. They are murder to shoot. Even at Trapdoor levels. Felt recoil goes up with the heavier bullet. They are truck stoppers, though...

Junior1942 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2011, 01:18:28 AM »

Quote from: Cascade Pete on August 17, 2011, 12:42:43 AM

Hang onto Your shoulder. They are murder to shoot. Even at Trapdoor levels. Felt recoil goes up with the heavier bullet. They are truck stoppers, though...

+1 on the above. They work well out of my 32" and my 22" Handi barrels. That's both the Lyman 457658 480 gr and the Lee 500 3r, both as cast w/soft alloy. With slightly compressed Pyrodex RS or WC860 and a lubed over powder felt wad they're 1 1/2 to 2 MOA shooters with peep sights. Velocity = ~1150 fps with both powders.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2011, 04:31:38 AM »

What 500 gr bullet do you have? There's a number of them, they all work fair to 200 yds after that some of them fall flat on their faces, and some will go to 600 yds in fine shape and yet still others will make the 1000 yd line with accuracy to spare.

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:07:53 AM »

i've got the lee 500 3r

Ranch13 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:16:21 AM »

Good bullet to about 300, after that it's a crap shoot if the wind is blowing.

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:22:36 AM »

i've also got the 405 lee mold. I really like that bullet. Have a mess of them laying around waiting to be used.

so general consensus is that the 500-3r is a beast?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:26:27 AM »

Quote from: fluffyphydeaux2010 on August 16, 2011, 05:42:43 PM

got the mold and wanting to know if anyone else shoots this and how its working, and any load advice would be great. Its going out of a standard handi-rifle barrel.

Yup, have shot 525gr and 555gr in my 45-120, lots of fellas here shoot the big boys in their 45-70s. John Boy to 1000yds and Bernie(dodd3) shoots the Lee 500r with an added gas check(see FAQs) to over 600 meters.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,119506.msg1098396326.html#msg1098396326

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,62996.msg381026.html#msg381026

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,74036.msg456772.html#msg456772

Sourdough · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2011, 07:19:11 AM »

My son shoots them out of his 45-70 Handi. He gets his loading information from an old LYMAN manual I have, from back in the 60s. I've shot these loads once, that was enough. He claims he wants it for Bears, but he never takes it when we are out looking for bears.

I think it is more a right of passage for his group of friends. They have to shoot this monster to be considered part of the group. I sometimes hear comments about the 45-70, but when questioned, they won't talk about it. I noticed his bag of bullets is going down. He buys his 500gr bullets from a guy that comes to the gun shows from Anchorage.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2011, 09:00:08 AM »

Load them 'as cast' (ie, dont size them down if they fit your fireformed case mouth), pan lube or tumble lube with LEE Liquid ALOX (unless you have the right 'oversize' lubrisizer die).
You dont have to stoke them up to painful and you cant make them shoot 'flat' anyway, so load them to a level that works for you and have fun.

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 17, 2011, 09:17:09 AM »

how would I do the whole lube process? just add alox to the media in the tumbler?

Awf Hand · « **Reply #11 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:21:39 AM »

Don't put the alox in the tumbler.

Put a bunch of bullets in an empty plastic jar -I use an old PB jar- and pour a bit of the alox directly over them. Gently roll the jar end-over-end and round-and-round enough to coat all the bullets in the alox. Don't roll them so hard or fast that the bullets are dented or peened.
When everything is pretty evenly coated, pour them out onto a sheet of wax paper so they can dry and they should be ready to go in 24 hours or so. Just dry and slightly tacky, mostly waxy-feeling to the touch.

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:27:53 AM »

mold just got here from FedEx.

That bullet just looks scary

gcrank1 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:34:21 AM »

ALOX in the media!!! I wonder how many times that has happened? Sorry I confused you, but you got good follow up anyway.
BTW, I use basically wheelweights, previously smelted into ingots, with just a 'dash' of tin for castability. Im due to have to cast again, those heavies go through a pound of lead SOOOO fast!
At mid and long distance (300-600 is still midrange) reading the wind is so important, but the only way you can learn it is to do it and pay attention. Big bullets tend to kick up more dust so POI is easier to see.

Old Fart · « **Reply #14 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:42:59 AM »

I've shot some, but I don't make a habit out of it........

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:47:39 AM »

thanks for the advice.

what powders do y'all use?

I've got some RL7 and Pyrodex RS on hand

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:24:13 PM »

I tried some Pyrodex years ago and it was just as bad, or worse, as real black powder; I wasnt impressed for a number of reasons, but you may as well dance with who ya brung since you have it.
I have been happily using Trail Boss this year to basically duplicate BP ballistics while using a full case of powder to the bullet base. Previously I used a lot of IMR 4227 for reduced velo cast bullet loads, and even Unique, but TB has taken over for me. I still have other high intensity powders if I want to build some snotty load, but that isnt much fun for me.

Rotten RJ · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:36:26 PM »

SR4759+ Lee 500-R3 boolit (at Trapdoor velocity/pressures)= lots o fun.
RJ

Ranch13 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:38:33 PM »

Quote from: fluffyphydeaux2010 on August 17, 2011, 11:47:39 AM

thanks for the advice.

what powders do y'all use?

I've got some RL7 and Pyrodex RS on hand

The powder I use the most is blackpowder, have really taken a liking to KIK 2f.
If smokeless powder is your thing, then it's hard to beat 5744 with cast bullets. It's very good at matching blackpowder ballistics, and accuracy. If shooting jacketed bullets 3031 is my favorite.
Pyrodex is horribly corrosive, and trail boss gives dismal velocity with accuracy that is almost non existant.
The Rl 7 you have on hand should work fine, check with Alliants web site to see if they have data for it.

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:51:47 PM »

can't seem to find any data on the beefy 500gr

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2011, 01:02:45 PM »

The lyman 48th lists trapdoor data as 35gr start to 40gr max RL7 for the 500gr Lyman 457658 cast bullet which is similar to the Lee 500r, COL is 2.990".

They list RL7 in their Ruger data as 44gr start to 49gr max at 38.2kcup, COL is 2.835" which is fine for an SB2 frame.

Be aware those longer COLs may be a problem in your barrel, H&R 45-70s can be short throated and commonly have been, so be sure to check before loading any ammo.

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2011, 01:05:48 PM »

thats what I was looking for! Thanks Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2011, 01:51:37 PM »

Dismal velo with TB, yeah if all you use is the 70% 'starting load! A full case to bullet base on my Chrony equals the BP load velo. Go figure?
Accuracy that is almost non existant......well, not in my 1884 Springfield or my H&R SS UH.
As always though, your mileage may vary, but mosly Ive seen poor accuracy with mild velo lead bullets from trying to use too small a dia. bullet for the throat and bore.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2011, 02:05:34 PM »

The pressures with Trailboss are excessive and near maximum for standard 45-70 loads, yet the velocity is only about 3/4 of what blackpowder or 5744 churns up.
25 grs of 5744 will throw that lee 5003r at 1200 and 70 grs of 2f black will spit it out at 1210. Hogdons list the maximum load "trapdoor" load at 804 fps. with a 485 gr bullet.
Trailboss is a fine powder for what it was intended for, but not a very good choice in rifle cartridges. I've yet to see it give this sort of accuracy at 70 yds, let alone 270 such as this target was fired with bp.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 17, 2011, 02:17:51 PM »

Here's an excerpt from some private correspondance from a friend of mine who is in the ammunition business and pressure tests alot of stuff.

Played with some TB 45-70 loads and my concern level is not as high as it was, although I still think is has no place in firearms intended for black powder pressures only. If, A VERY BIG IF, you do not load any more than the available powder space left in the cartridge, WITHOUT ANY COMPRESSION, it is pretty hard to get much beyond 30KSI. Another "IF", someone keeps stuffing it in until they get actual balckpowder velocities, I think the results would be much closer to disaster. I will do those tests when I have time. A friend sent me some 420 grain brand x (terminally, they sucked) bullets to check pressures using some RE10 (he could no longer find his favorite RE7 locally). After the test, I had some left over plus some others I got from Montana Cast. Now I only had enough gel left to fire a few shots so I need to set aside one days worth of gel to a solely TB test but this is what I got. With the 420 bullet, there was room left in the case 16.3 grains to the base of the seated bullet. I started with their 70% rule and the result was 921 fps @ 25,100psi. About what I expected. Next I filled the entire space with 16.3 grains of TB and on firing two shots, the result on the first was 1059 fps @ 26,700psi. The second shot was 1100fps @ 30,600 psi. Not very consistent but not exactly a hand grenade either. Next was a 500 grain bullet. I forget the exact brand/model but it was more of a Sharps style round nose that had most of the bullet outside the case, i.e., not a lever gun bullet. The room left under the bullet held 17.5 grains. I loaded that amount and the result was 1012 fps @ 29,500 psi. Like I said, I still think it is the wrong powder for black powder pressure guns (76s, trap doors, etc) but in modern rifles, my blood pressure has come done some so I guess I will lay off those that choose to use it for mouse fart loads in Marlins, Shilohs, and Miroku 86 replicas, etc.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2011, 03:03:23 PM »

FWIW, my actual experience:
340gr. LEE, 20.0 gr.TB weighed AND drop tubed to get max in without compression, Chrony 8' in front=1274fps
My bullets can cut each other at my max 50yd. backyard range if I do my part. Out in the 'back 40' they all knock on the same chunk at 125ish.
With the LEE 405s and 'a bit less' TB at my friends 'Shoot' where he has more range they did as well as any of the other boys with their fine tuned loads at 200yd. in the middle of summer.
The few 500s I have shot are like big 'airships' and drop into the same spot at my cabin where I can go from 100 to some 300yd. on an open plowed field in the spring. Yeah, it aint paper punching, but cornstalk stubs make fine aiming points. Im pretty satisfied when they disappear; maybe Im just easy to please.
My notes show that the 'original' 45-70 load for the 1873 TD Springfield was (Frankford Arsenal), 45-70-405 @ 1350fps.
After the Sandy Hook Trials of 1879, and adopted for the 1884 (improved and strengthened) TD Rifle, was the 45-70-500 (requiring a change in rear sight calibration).
*The 'carbine load', however, was 45-55-405 at 1100fps*
A number of 45-70 loads with group size data have indicated the velo for accuracy is in that 'sub-sonic' range.
The great history of the 45-70 in the old, and new, west is with loads having ballistics similar to mine.
My TB loads have less felt recoil than full BP loads. No pressure signs or stiff extraction and I dont even resize to reload, just decap/recap, powder & ball; they load up easy and pop right out.
What am I doing wrong?

OSOK · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2011, 04:06:40 PM »

I use 5744 under the 460 gr. cast bullets I'm shooting. 27 gr. is VERY mild. I'm still working up to a hunting load, haven't got there yet (ie, no time to load, and too dang hot!)

manatee1947 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:03:52 PM »

I suggest looking at the 5744, SR 4759, even IMR 4198, as well as the RL7. All should produce loads between 1250 to 1550 fps at pressures of 15 to 18 K psi. My book shows an accuracy load of 26.5 gr of XMP 5744 for 1250 fps and 15.6K , for trapdoor level loads.

Buckwheat Jack · « **Reply #28 on:** August 18, 2011, 02:41:10 AM »

I use a Lee 450 grain over 24 to 28 grains of IMR 4198 and get good accuracy out to 200 yards with mild recoil.

fluffyphydeaux2010 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 20, 2011, 01:26:30 PM »

over 43 gr RL7, that dang thing hurts! but I secretly like it...