Author Topic: .45-70 vs. 416 Rigby (Read 38319 times)

Boss Kongoni · « **on:** December 29, 2002, 03:04:22 PM »

Hello, I'm a Trad. bowhunter. I made my 1st trip to Africa for plains game in 2001. I hope to go back in 2004. I also enjoy shooting big bore handguns.
When I go back I'd like to hunt with my bow, Freedom Arms casull and a rifle.
I've be considering a Ruger 1 in either .45-70 or .416 Rigby.

The trip would be for plains game, and I really don't see myself hunting out past 100yrds.

How do these two cal. rounds compare?

Thank you.

JJHACK · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2002, 05:56:26 PM »

The 416 is a far more powerful and versatile rifle then the 45/70. I would not consider the 45/70 a practical hunting rifle for Africa it's just an odd caliber for longer shots, and looses power quickly beyond 100 yards. I would much prefer a simple bolt rifle in the 416 caliber.

For plains game only you don't need anything that big. A 338 or 300 mag is plenty. The 30/06 is one of the most popular plains game rifles of all time. Actually the Casull is plenty already for your plains game hunting out to 60-80 yards and that is a common distance for most game in the Transvaal.

Boss Kongoni · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2002, 04:14:23 PM »

JJHack - Thank you.

I am rather fond of cal. starting with "4". With my trad. bowhunting back ground I do really prefer hunting close. I also prefer open sites. I don't see myself hunting out past 100yrds. However It's good to know that the .416 will still be flat & powerful ouit farther if needed.

I do know thatr the 45-70 has killed a lot of brown bears and moose here so I would think it would work on a big Eland.

On concern would be finding ammo on the road .416 should be easy in RSA but Alaska? Vise Versa?

JJHACK · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2003, 10:35:19 AM »

The main reason the 416 will never surpass the 375HH as the best cartridge in the world is due almost entirely to the availability of ammo.

There is for all practical purposes one 375 diameter cartridge. Several of the wildcats can actually use the 375HH cartridge as well in a pinch. Like shooting 38 specials out of a 357 magnum.

How many 416 cartridges are there? Way too many. If there was only one 416 cartridge it would have the real chance to surpass the 375HH (maybe).

The 375HH with a good scope like a 2.5-8 VariXIII is the single best hunting rifle for the whole world. There is ammo for it everyplace big game is hunted the world over. Nearly the same can be said for the 30/06. I doubt you will find 45/70 or 416 in the cartridge you need in foreign countries. I think that is an important consideration for an international hunter. If I were to choose something bigger then the 375HH I would go to the 458 win Mag or the 458 Lott. Both can shoot 458 Win mag ammo and in Africa the 458 win mag is popular. With the 458 Lott you will have an unbelievable sledgehammer of a rifle with shooting out to 250 yards not a problem.

Rocky · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2003, 12:21:27 PM »

Bravo JJHACK! Good post. Ollie Coltman told me the same thing many years ago and that advice has paid off several times. Once in Zambia big time. :grin:

Rocky

Boss Kongoni · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2003, 02:46:58 PM »

JJ - I'm really glad I came to this site, I appreciate your help. Opinions on the web are plentiful, objective information is harder top come by.

I got interested in this topic after reading an artical in December's Guns & Ammo about Ruger & Hornady bringing out a M77 MKII mag in .458 Lott. Funny how it came full circle.

I had read a bit about guys hunting in Africa with .45-70 & 416 Rigby. I'm still learning about these rifles so this was helpfull. I know the .375 HH has killed eveything I'm interested in hunting. I 'm guilty of that American condition, of More is Better.

I always try to consider the what if's, it's that old boy scout "always be prepared" motto, I guess. I've heard about so many guys that over looked those little detais, such as ammo availablity away from home, only to have it impact thier trips.

msorenso · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2005, 05:00:29 AM »

For what its worth , I see the 45-70 as a very short range pounder. For Africa 375 and anything bigger has so much more power and wallop than the 45-70 I don't even see a comparison.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2005, 07:51:20 AM »

anyone whom second guesses a 45-70's killing potential should look at the game it HAS KILLED better yet show us what game it HASN'T KILLED! Handloads in a 45-70 in today's modern lever guns or single shot break actions easily meet 416 factory levels with a bigger bullet.
Yes the 375 is a great caliber no questioning that but a .375 bullet is still just .375 not .458 untill you reform that neck to 458Lott which sheds FPS faster than the 45-70 after 200 yds
Make no mistake the modern 45-70 rifles are not your great grandpas rifles. Trapdoors could never handle Corbon ammo or 55.0 gr of 3031 pushing a 405 gr bullet @2200 FPS. But even those old BP 45-70 killed elephants/lion/buffalo/etc.
In a few months I am going back to Namibia along with my 300WSM I am also taking a Marlin 1895 LTD 45-70 and a Contender 14" 45-70 Eland is my main objective this trip.
If anyone wonders at the killing power of a 45-70 on eland all they need to do is look at all the eland that havew been killed with a 270

msorenso · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2005, 02:37:00 AM »

I guess by what I am going by is no hand loads all factory ammo that they sell everywhere. I understand that they can be a stout load but most poeple go by what they can pick up off the shelf, that is what i am going by. I am assuming you are comparing a beefed up version of the 45-70 vs. trapdoor on the 416.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2005, 02:51:47 AM »

first thing you need to do is seperate the inferior factory trash from the quality factory loads, such as Corbon for the 45-70. The second thing you must do is learn to handload cause a box of Corbon is about $45, they can easily be duplicated by a novice handloader for under $10.
In 2001 I shot a 2000# bull bison in the forehead at 80 yds and the bullet exited the left ham right alongside the base of the tail!!!!!! I'd like to see a 375 do that while pushing a nickel size bullet!!!!!!!!!!!!

msorenso · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2005, 03:08:15 AM »

This is good to know now I know my H&R Buffalo Classic in 45-70 can kill one at 100 yards.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:03:35 PM »

funny! that is the exact rifle I shot the bison with! They aren't the prettiest but they are deadly accurate

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2005, 12:49:10 AM »

Quote from: JJHACK

The 416 is a far more powerful and versatile rifle then the 45/70. I would not consider the 45/70 a practical hunting rifle for Africa it's just an odd caliber for longer shots, and looses power quickly beyond 100 yards. I would much prefer a simple bolt rifle in the 416 caliber.

For plains game only you don't need anything that big. A 338 or 300 mag is plenty. The 30/06 is one of the most popular plains game rifles of all time. Actually the Casull is plenty already for your plains game hunting out to 60-80 yards and that is a common distance for most game in the Transvaal.

I have both a 45-70 and a 416 Rigby. The 45-70 loaded to the max and shot out of my Ruger #1 does not come close to the power of my 416 Rigby. JJHACK you are so right about your statement.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2005, 03:00:22 AM »

I believe your post was jaded towards the 416! You should have said a max loaded 45-70 is not the equivlent of a max loaded 416 after 100 yds .
But it that max Garrett load does surpass factory 416 ammo

leverfan · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2005, 06:01:30 PM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK

I believe your post was jaded towards the 416! You should have said a max loaded 45-70 is not the equivlent of a max loaded 416 after 100 yds .
But it that max Garrett load does surpass factory 416 ammo

Well, to be completely fair, maybe we should compare max 45-70 loads to maximum 416 loads, not factory 416 Rigby that's down loaded out of respect for double rifles and older guns. If you load the 416 to its full potential in a modern bolt action, it absolutely eclipses the 45-70 in any form. For instance, in a strong gun, the 416 Rigby can easily sling a 400 grain bullet in excess of 2600 fps with good handloads. The Rigby can also use bullets that have a high enough ballistic coefficient to make full use of that higher velocity. There aren't enough 416 Rigby owners out there with modern bolt guns and iron shoulders to justify any company coming out with "+P" Rigby ammo, but that doesn't mean hand loaders can't safely boost Rigby performance, just like we do the 45-70.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2005, 12:45:00 AM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK

I believe your post was jaded towards the 416! You should have said a max loaded 45-70 is not the equivlent of a max loaded 416 after 100 yds .
But it that max Garrett load does surpass factory 416 ammo

Not jaded in the least. I don't buy factory rounds, I reload. So I know for a fact the 416 out performs the 45-70. Try to get a 400 gr. slug out of your 45-70 to shoot 2600 fps. You can't. But the 416 Rigby will and not be max loaded.
Don't get me wrong, I love the 45-70, I own several. I also know it does not compare to the 416 Rigby. If it did the 45-70 would be the King round of Africa, but it is not.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #16 on:** June 16, 2005, 06:24:41 AM »

I never said a max 45-70 was equal to a max 416 (I own both) I said a max 45-70 is equal to factory 416 (the required min. cal is .375 for most African countries in regard to DG ) The max 45-70 surpasses the min just as factory loaded 416 ammo does.
BTW the 416 is not "the king caliber" in Africa but rather the 375 H&H is.
I am getting 2350 out of my 420gr .458...that's close enough to 2600 that I'd call it splitting hairs

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2005, 07:36:22 AM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK

I never said a max 45-70 was equal to a max 416 (I own both) I said a max 45-70 is equal to factory 416 (the required min. cal is .375 for most African countries in regard to DG ) The max 45-70 surpasses the min just as factory loaded 416 ammo does.
BTW the 416 is not "the king caliber" in Africa but rather the 375 H&H is.
I am getting 2350 out of my 420gr .458...that's close enough to 2600 that I'd call it splitting hairs

Don't get so touchy there GEMSBUCK.

My whole point was if the 45-70 was such a good round and equaled the 416 Rigby, why would anyone need a 416 Rigby or a 375 H&H for the matter?? The 45-70 should be all you would need, but it is not that way. That is what I meant by being the King caliber comment.

The 2350 fps you have down for the 420 gr bullet, is that from a 45-70? Also what is your load. I could not find anything that comes that close in any of my reloading manuals. 7 different books and 2000 to 2100 fps tops for a 400 gr. bullet. I was looking at all the Ruger # 1 load data.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2005, 07:45:48 AM »

Also you might want to check out Federals site. The 416 Rigby starts at 2400 to 2440 fps at the muzzle with a 400 gr. bullet.

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammo40/bal_details.asp?id=193&firearm=1&bc=0.389&muzzvel=2440&bulletwgt=400

DanP · « **Reply #19 on:** June 16, 2005, 09:33:33 AM »

To drive home the point in comparing .45-70's to the .416, note that the .458 win with a 400gr load in Trophy Bonded Bear Claw by Federal shows an almost identical trajectory:

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammo40/bal_details.asp?id=199&firearm=1&bc=0.381&muzzvel=2380&bulletwgt=400

The point of the comparison is that the energies of the .416 Rigby are very much in line with those of the .458 win. This implies that all the comments comparing .45-70s with the .458 win hold up well.

HOWEVER, to give due credit, penetration has much to do with the construction of the bullet, as well as the energy. Softer bullets will tend to mushroom or explode at higher energy, giving less penetration than lower energies (paradoxically), BUT, in the process, will do more damage to the tissues where they hit.

One good comparison and some more detailed discussions of these points is given in:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1011537/posts

At higher energies, cast bullets won't make it through a barrel at .458 or .416 energies, but will if you reduce the charge. Paper patching can give you more flexibility with lead bullets. Harder bullets have more tin (and other metals). This looks much like old lead solder -- it can "tin" your barrel (the metal binds to the inside of your barrel). Even with lower black powder charges in a .45-70, there's a risk of that... BUT, people have had good terminal ballistics with hard-cast bullets at lower energies -- can't argue with success. But, I've been very curious to hear whether anybody has noticed (or cared about) tinning in their barrels?

Dan

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #20 on:** June 16, 2005, 11:48:47 AM »

redhawk1: Am I allowed to post my load? Well I guess I can as you asked*** this is for my 1895 24" Marlin, though I have shot it out of my 32" BC Classic as well, both over my Chrony with an average of 2591 FPS
*** I do not suggest you load up to my level without working up to it first!
58.6 gr IMR3031 (compressed)/ Federal 215/420 gr FNGC/Starline brass***not for the recoil timid

Gemsbuck

DanP · « **Reply #21 on:** June 16, 2005, 04:29:35 PM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK

redhawk1: Am I allowed to post my load? Well I guess I can as you asked*** this is for my 1895 24" Marlin, though I have shot it out of my 32" BC Classic as well, both over my Chrony with an average of 2591 FPS
*** I do not suggest you load up to my level without working up to it first!
58.6 gr IMR3031 (compressed)/ Federal 215/420 gr FNGC/Starline brass***not for the recoil timid Gemsbuck

That gives (420 gr/7000 gr/lb) * (2591 ft/sec)^2 / 2 / (32 ft/sec^2) = 6293.7 ft-lbs

That beats the Lott!!

Dan

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 17, 2005, 01:29:54 AM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK

redhawk1: Am I allowed to post my load? Well I guess I can as you asked*** this is for my 1895 24" Marlin, though I have shot it out of my 32" BC Classic as well, both over my Chrony with an average of 2591 FPS
*** I do not suggest you load up to my level without working up to it first!
58.6 gr IMR3031 (compressed)/ Federal 215/420 gr FNGC/Starline brass***not for the recoil timid Gemsbuck

GEMSBUCK, I am a little puzzled by your load.
In my Barnes number3 book a 300 gr. bullet only goes 2011 fps with 54.0 gr. of 3031 for the Marlin Lever action gun. Now shooting up to the Ruger #1 load data again a 300 gr. bullets with 58.0 gr of IMR3031 is listed at 2094 fps. I am just wondering how a 420 gr. bullet would be faster than a lighter bullet with the same load? The fastest 400 gr bullet I find listed in the Barnes book is 1934 fps with 56.0 gr. of H4895.

My Speer manual lists a 400 gr. bullet with 54.0C of IMR3031 load at 1786 fps. Now this is a Strong Action Ruger #1 or 3, not recommended in the Marlin Lever action. You are 4.6 gr. higher than the max recommended load for a Ruger #1 or 3 and shooting it in a gun not meant for such a load.

In my opinion you are playing with a time bomb. I would not shoot your load in my Ruger #1 let alone a Marlin Lever action.

***So please no one try his load in any of your guns. It is in my opinion, way overloaded.***

msorenso · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2005, 05:33:04 AM »

BOTTOM LINE THE 416 RME OR RIGBY IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THE OLE 45-70

DanP · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2005, 05:42:57 AM »

Yup -- the .416 etc are more powerful than a .45-70 (unless you're willing to risk injury).

But, it might be worth considering that the terminal performance of the old .45-70 can be much better than energy figures might give credit for on the surface. Still, it will never do what needs to be done on an elephant's skull to reach the brain from the front with the kind of reliability that is required.

Dan

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #25 on:** June 17, 2005, 05:54:22 PM »

Hard to believe there can really be an argument about this.

DanP · « **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2005, 06:14:46 PM »

To give the devil his due -- the original question was whether there might be a role for a .45-70 in Africa. The latest "American Hunter" has a special section on African hunting. The guns&loads section argued that .270s through .338's are good for most plains animals. If so, it is conceivable that a .45-70 might have a role... even if it isn't an elephant gun. Do you really need a .416 to take a duiker?

But I think another comment from Garrett Ammunition (not a plug, just info) clarifies the point. They're loading 500 gr loads in .45-70s to 1600 fps (that's just about the same energy as an '06, which is reasonable) -- and likely closer to what was claimed to be just under 2600 fps (I think that's a mistake). Even so, penetration is more than expected for these lower speeds. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/garrett.htm

But given some of the trophy shots attributed to the .45-70 with Garretts loads, I have to eat my words in thinking the .45-70 is "inadequate" (though I still figure a .458 win is safer). http://www.garrettcartridges.com/trophys_africa.asp

Dan

msorenso · « **Reply #27 on:** June 20, 2005, 11:38:53 AM »

Thank you EsoxLucius.

handirifle · « **Reply #28 on:** July 28, 2005, 12:03:54 PM »

Hi folks, not new to GB's but new to this forum.
While I have never had a load close to what Gemsbuck posted, I did had a 400gr load closer to the 2100fps range from my BC. You have to remember when comparing the listed loads to the BC, that the Marlin and Ruger, most likely have 20 or 22" barrels, while the Buffalo Classic has a 32" barrel. That can make a considerable difference in speed. Not sure if it would make up for 400fps though, I doubt it personally.

I have not, but have read of others easily reaching 2400fps with a 300gr bullet from their Handirifle or BC's, but it is possible. That is a very stout load though.

In my opinion, since Kongoni was specific about 100yds, and plains game, seems to me the 45-70 would be well within its element. I have never shot, but only read of the Rigby. I have watched a guy at my range shoot his Ruger #1 in the Rigby but I never fired it. It seems to have WAAY more potential than the 45-70 for sure, but it doesn't sound to me like Kongoni needs all that power.

JJHACK · « **Reply #29 on:** July 28, 2005, 06:56:14 PM »

Gemsbok, if there were some type of an award for the most absurd statement on misinformed ballistics information then I think what you have written in this thread would be in the running for the award! Your choice to try and debate this is even more bizzare. One thing about the internet I have found is that just when you think you are an expert in something another guy comes along who actually knows a thing or two.

The lethal capabilities of the 458 lott and the 416 are so far superior to the 45/70 they cannot be compared. For starters the only way you get high velocity with that 45/70 is with hardcast bullets. Shooting solids at plains game is not at all prudent. Sure they blow right through and make two holes but it would be tlike shooting target arrows at big game rather then broadheads.

Furthermore you stated that your getting somthing like 2200fps with a 400 grain bullet and the 416 is only 2600fps so it's so close its about the same? I cannot believe your blowing off 400 FPS that easy! If this were the case then why not reduce your loads by 400 fps and you would be about the same, and have less recoil .......Right? 400fps difference is 20% more with an actual high performance expanding jacketed hunting bullet, not some pathetic brittle hardcast lead bullet!

You also said that beyond two hundred yards the 45/70 loses velocity slower then the 458 Lott. My 458 Lott is loaded very conservative with a 450 grain barns X bullet. It leaves the barrel at 2350fps. The 45/70 cannot even come close to that. Plus the X bullet is a premium spitzer, not a flat point.

I'm regularly amazed at the somewhat religious following some of these 45/70 people seem to get into. It's as if when you buy one all your common sense and logic magically leaves your brain. This is fact and you can either come out of the trance your in and buy it, or reamain ostrich like with your head in the sand. The 45/70 is not a dangerous game rifle and does not have the needed power to be used on the bigger game in Africa in any kind of hunt other then a novelty or stunt. There certainly have been a lot of people who have done this and used them. These guys are typically carrying enough wealth that if the hunt was a bust they could try agian anyway. However by the time you stick 30-50 grand or more into hunting a few dangerous game animals woulden't you want to have something that was actually proven to work, all the time with a track record?

Remember that the 45/70 with a 400 grain bullet cannot reach the velocity that the 458 lott gets with a 500 grain bullet. Add to that,.... the only bullet the 45/70 can get that velocity with is a brittle solid hardcast lead bullet. The 458 lott can do it with a premium quality hunting bullet that will shoot with significantly more power to a much greater distance.

What happens inside the brain of otherwise logical thinking people when they become the owner of a 45/70? I have never seen this with any other cartridge.

By the way your comparison of the 45/70 to the 270 was just as flawed. That solid hard cast lead bullet will zip right through an animal the size of a Kudu. that bull will run a hella long way with absolutely no impact force, and very likely no impact reaction. Big hole through and through but where will he go?

The explosive 270 will damage so much internal "goods" that the impact and capability of that same Kudu will be far more greatly affected. Not to mention quite visual as well! Believe what you want with the 45/70 but keep in mind I have personally witnessed several thousand animals shot in Africa with about every kind of hunting weapon you can think of. It's my business there.

One last comment don't think for a second that a 45/70 that kills an American Bison would make it good for cape buffalo. The two animals are not in the same league where danger, and the will to live are concerned. comparing a Bison and a cape buffalo is about like comparing a 45/70 to a 416 rigby!