How can one live off the grid if:

[Dixie Dude]

You have a 401-k, and a pension (which I can get a lump sum)? 
 
My dream is to build a semi underground home to cut back on utilities, esp heat and air conditioning and to grow my own veggies, hunt, fish. 
 
I see that Alaska and Wyoming have no state property tax, but have local or county property taxes.
 
Alabama is the second cheapest in property taxes, but has a state sales tax and tax on your retirement money. 
 
Where is the best place?  Can living off the grid be truely done, unless you join an Amish community?

[burntmuch]

I think living completly off the grid would be real tuff, but possible. I think you would have to raise livestock & veggies [ enough to eat & sell] to help pay taxes, Maybe spend 20 grand or so on solar & windmills. I dont have alot to add to this thread but Im replying so I can follow it.

[mannyrock]

Dixie,
   I have been retired for 5 years on a small pension.  I don't live off of the grid, but I can give you some very helpful advice.
 
   1.  Take your pension payments over time, not in lump sum.   If you take a lump sum, it will be lesser than the lifetime of payments that you will end up with by taking it over time.  Also, how would you invest your lump sum?  You can only get a 2% return on long term CDs right now, and that is taxable!    Unless you absolutely need the money in lump to acquire your future home, don't do it.
 
   2.  Anytime that anyone says that they have a dream of custom building a special kind of house, it ALWAYS ends up being a money-sucking disaster.  It always takes twice as long and twice as much money as they estimated.  And the results are generally poor.  Wherever you end up living, how many experts will live around there who have built quality underground houses?  Probably  none.   Some  "contractor" will fumble through the job, and it will end up leaking.  Money is too hard to come by to use it to pursue an amorphous dream.
 
  3.   It would be 100% bettter for you to find a small old existing one-story  house, with a nice clean dry basement, hopefully that has a few windows above ground to let sunlight into the basement.  It can be old and well used, but not abused.  No rot or termites.  And must have a good roof.  Then, spend your money doing the following: (i) insulate the heck out of the upper floors, (ii) install one or two large woodburning stoves upstairs that vent to the chimney, (iii) install one large woodburning stove in the basement that vents to the outside, and (iv) vinyl-side the exterior of the house.        After doing this, you will have virtually no maintenance expense keeping up the exterior (painting, scrapping etc.), and you can live like our great grandparents did.   You will spend the summer living in the basement, and the winter living on the floor level.
 
4  As far as picking a state, the most important thing of all is that you end up in a state that you really like, and that has moderate winter and summer temperatures.   This means the border state regions (Southern Missouri, Southern Kentucky, Eastern Kansas, Northern Arkansas, Northern Tennessee, perhaps northwestern Virginia or northeastern West Virginia).  All of these areas have a low population density, wonderful hunting, lots of hardwood forests, and lots of public land to hunt.  They also rank as among the cheapest areas to live in the U.S.  Research these areas, and find the cheapest.  By the way, Tennessee has no state income tax on wages, but does tax interest and dividends.
 
    5.  Every place you will ever go will have property taxes. These taxes are, in most places, assessed by the county, and how high the tax rate is set is dependent on local politics, and  on how many services people demand.  Rural areas, with few people and few roads, have low tax rates.   Here is some crucial information:  In almost every county I have ever lived in, there is a special very very low tax rate (called the Agricultural exemption), if your land is used primarily for agriculture (production of hay, grain, crops, livestock, etc.).   Most require 10 or 20 acres as a minium. All you have to do is find a place with 20 acres of old fields, find a farmer who wants to cut and bale it twice a years for hay, make a sharecrop agreement with him by which he keeps 90% or so of the proceeds, fill out a one page form with the county listing the crop, your name, the property location, the estimated yield, and the farmer's name and address, and you will qualify for the special tax rate!  It is shockingly low.  (I own 12.5 acres in Hanover County, just 45 minutes west of Richmond, VA, and my total real estate taxes are about $55 a year.  That's right.  Fifty- Five dollars!
  6.  About 100 years ago, the vast majority of Americans lived comfortably off the grid, without electricity.  They didn't do it by moving to Alaska or building underground houses. They did it by living on small self-sufficient farms with woods and pastures, having good gardens, raising a dozen pigs or feeder calves, and taking a few deer each year.  They never bought what they could rent, and they never rented what they could borrow from a neighbor.   
 
  Hope this info helps.   You don't want to end up choosing a place solely on its low cost, and end up in with an inferno summer, or a 6 month winter.  You will be living in hell and get extremely depressed.   The main point is that you want to enjoy your retirement.
Regards, Mannyrock

[Dixie Dude]

I have a home now with a fairly sizeable equity, but still have a mortgage on part.  Between my wife and I we have a sizeable retirement.  However, we want to live "off the grid" so to speak.
 
A crane owner in my hometown built a 2,200 sq ft home semi-underground.  He built 12" reinforced block walls on 3 sides about 12' high.  He used his crane to lift prefab concrete bridge trusses over the top.  He then had 6 layers of tar and felt paper applied.  Then two layers of heavy plastic.  He put drainage around the three sides with the one side open to the north.  He then backfilled and had 2' of dirt on the roof.  He calculated the weight the roof would hold and he only put 2' of dirt on top.  He had 4 sliding glass doors on the open side with one standard door and a fireplace.  He went one complete year without heat or air condition. (This is in central Alabama).  He only needed the fireplace for two nights one winter, but when it got to 102 outside in the summer, it was 85 inside.  He said he had to install a dehumidifier because of the humidity in the house, (showers, cooking, cloths washing) puts off a lot of water vapor.  He finally installed a small central air unit to dehumidify and cool on the hottest days.  By having the ceiling 12' high, he was able to have a drop ceiling, 8' in bedrooms and 10' in living areas.  Inside this drop ceiling was his wiring and ductwork.  He made the interior just like a regular home except without windows in the bedrooms, utility, and closets.  Kitchen, dining, and living areas were on the open side of the house.  It didn't leak.  He also said the cost was about the same as a regular house.  He had a lot of trees on the property, and only had to mow his roof.  This guy had also installed florescent lights (stick type) to cut down on lighting costs.
 
In my idea of this type house, I would now use LED lighting.  The humidity problem was good to know.  Also, with the semi underground and me about to go into retirement, that would mean much less firewood to cut.  LED lights would be very cheap.  A small bank of solar panels with battery backup might light my house, and take care of refrigeration, maybe even air conditioning/air circulation.  I also thought of having a duct system that might draw in outside air during dry weather and bring it into the house with the humid air forced outside to save on air conditioning or dehumidifying.  I have though about using well water and a septic system to avoid those costs.  Maybe having a small water tower in case of some type of power outage so I can always have running water.  I have thought about using a wood stove for cooking, but have a propane backup.  Have an outside barbeque area for spring and summer cooking to avoid heat in the house. 
 
I am trying to pay my mortgage off now, then when the market improves some, sell it and buy the land somewhere and build the home.  That way I wouldn't have to pay capital gains.  With very low to neglegable utility bills, growing my own food, hunting and fishing for the rest, maybe some chickens.  Very little in the way of expenses, taxes then become the issue, along with health care costs.  Right now my power and water bills combined average over $300 per month in the house I live in.  Then we have satelite TV, cell phones, which are about $150/month.  My water, garbage, and sewer are $90 a month by themselves.  Living "off the grid" so to speak, I would have no water, sewer, and garbage bill.  Little to no power or gas bill.  My current food bill is about $500 a month.  Just cutting all these in half would save over $500 a month.  My mortgage is $600 a month.  Gasoline for work, shopping, etc runs about $100 a month now, without any travel.  This also doesn't count eating out either.  Current insurance and taxes for home and vehicles is around $5,000 per year. 
 
Just trying to figure the best options.  Place, type home, hunting, fishing, or "small scale farming" to cut costs and taxes. 
 
I have thought about southeastern Kentucky.  East and north of hurricanes.  Away from the New Madrid fault line in mid-America.  No large cities around, only Knoxville to the south, Lexington to the northwest.  Mountains to inhibit travel by people fleeing the cities in case of complete governmental breakdown.  Just some thoughts. 

[BUGEYE]

I had a friend back in the 60s that built a basement to live in while he built the house above.
the basement worked so well that he never built the house.  he just added roof trusses and shingles to the basement.

[mcwoodduck]

Depending on the Ammount you are willing to pay to set up the house and what level of comfort you want the answer is yes.  Are you happy with a freezer or are smoked and dried meats OK. 
There are houses in Southern CA in the mountain and way out in the desert that have wind and solar power with fuel generators as back up.
You can buld items like gassifiers to burn your trash and use it for fuel.
The sewage and water can be done with a well and a leach field.
Gardens and live stock can be planted and raised.
Clearly people have lived off the grid.  The farms of 1950's  and earlier did not all have power and city water to them. 
Totaly off the grid is different than living in a community.  And clearly you will need some items from the comunity like a Doctor and a hardware store, and other staples that you can not grow or make.  Unless you are thinking of a Mountain man existance.  Even they had annula rondevouz where they purchased new items with the furs they trapped and used as currency.  At some point you are going to need some $ to buy items you need and sinking your whole nest egg into the house is gong to have you going with out. like a doctor, a vet, feed for the live stock, Clothes.

[PowPow]

Consider a geothermal heat pump since you are doing all the digging anyway.

[scootrd]

I have always dreamed of pulling a Dick Proenneke of a sort.
Gal I married has always been all for it.

http://www.dickproenneke.com/DickProenneke.html

I think when we finally hang it up we will end up with a life style somewhere in the middle , Semi off the Grid, but not all the way there so to speak.  We have researched areas for a number of years now - Eastern KY, NW or NE Va , and WY are places we have also narrowed it down too. 

I love the Blue Ridge area , but something about the Grand Teton area just keeps tugging at me. For us weather considerations have never been much of a concern. Just want some Acreage (enough for big Barn , very very small house) and farm critters  (wife says if she cannot clean house in an hour without breaking a sweat , so she can go outside and play in the dirt and run her 'Bota tractor , House is too big for our needs

Have a bout 5 years to go before we have to make up our minds where to plant final stakes.

[Dixie Dude]

I was hoping to only use the money out of our existing home to use for the new home and land.  As is our home is in a nice town in a nice neighborhood.  I have 2,800 sq. ft and a pool.  Don't have to have the pool, nor that much space since all the kids have moved out.  Not sinking all in the house and land.  Was going to use pension and 401-k to live off of, but far less than I need now with my existing house. 

[reliquary]

If I had it to do over again, I'd go to the Texas Hill Country or Caprock Region and build a semi-underground place like you describe, with a few acres.  I know a couple of folks who've done that...one lives there fulltime and the other has it as a bugout location.   Both built into a partial cave, along a south-facing finger of land, solar panels on the face and windmills along the ridgetop.  Neither is connected to the electric grid; one has connected to NG lines.
The reason we didn't is that, at retirement time, we already had a place and family in the Piney Woods of East Texas; too old to move now.

[hillbill]

look real hard at the house yu want to buy or build. if you are truly living off the grid you will be outside working all the time. the only time you will be in the house is after dark and when the weather is really bad.you can build a 20x24ft house for prob less than 8k. 2x6 walls, heavily insulated.tin roof and walls.cement floor with tile.rudimentry plumbing and electric.but your goin to have to do it all yourself.and scrounge as much as yu can.and have a good basic knowledge of carpentry, cement work and a few tools.all the info can be found online. a well will cost yu what it does.there are ways of gettin water out of a well with no or very little electricity.i was NOT a carpenter when i built my house but i had input from guys i know in the construction trade.i did almost all the work and its been fine for the past 17 yrs.

[RaySendero]

I have a home now with a fairly sizeable equity, but still have a mortgage on part.  Between my wife and I we have a sizeable retirement.  However, we want to live "off the grid" so to speak.
 
A crane owner in my hometown built a 2,200 sq ft home semi-underground. .....

 
Dude, manyrock's advice above is GOOD!
 
I'll add - Get your $$$,$$$ business done BEFORE you retire.
Buy the land,
Buy, build or move a house on it.
Get Land, house and the vehicles paid for BEFORE you retire.
 

[hillbill]

I have a home now with a fairly sizeable equity, but still have a mortgage on part.  Between my wife and I we have a sizeable retirement.  However, we want to live "off the grid" so to speak.
 
A crane owner in my hometown built a 2,200 sq ft home semi-underground. .....

 
Dude, manyrock's advice above is GOOD!
 
I'll add - Get your $$$,$$$ business done BEFORE you retire.
Buy the land,
Buy, build or move a house on it.
Get Land, house and the vehicles paid for BEFORE you retire.

being debt free is a truly wonderfull feeling.once yu experience it yu will never go back.

[Cornbelt]

  Don't forget to ask yourselves how old you're gonna be in thirty years.

[mannyrock]

Dixie Dude,
   I know we all have our dreams, but from the weight of  your posts on this topic, it appears to me that you are far more interested in pursuing a dream of building an underground house than cheaply, efficiently and quickly being able to live off the grid in a comfortable manner
   If you check the real estate boards, and drive the back roads of the areas I mentioned in my earlier post, you will find lots and lots of one-story, 1,600 square foot, brick ranch houses with a full or three-quarters basement, sitting on 20 acres or more.  Most have a walk-out door from the basement on one end.  In real economic terms, the sale prices for these places is the lowest that it has been in 50 years, and they will never be this cheap again.  Plus, you will more than likely get two or three outbuildings in the deal for nothing.
    If you buy a brick home with a full basement, and just put up good insulation in the ceiling of the basement, and an economic suspended tile ceiling,  you will automatically HAVE an underground house. i.e., the entire basement.  If you want, you can easily stud the walls and put up rigid insulation and wall board as well.  Put a large wood stove down there if you intend to stay down there in the winter, and you are done!
   This will be far far cheaper than wasting the money to pay somebody in todays dollars to drill wells, dig foundations, dig septic fields, cut and gravel roads, haul tons and tons of construction materials to your site, and build an underground house.  You would literally be dumping your money into a hole in the ground.  This is money that you will dearly need to achieve and sustain self sufficiency.
   And in a few years, if  you and your wife decide to live somewhere else, you will have a farm house that you can sell, and for more than you paid.  Sorry, but not one in a hundred people will want to buy your underground house, and if they do, they will only pay you half of what you put into it.
   Just trying to help.
Mannyrock
 
 
 
 
 

[charles p]

Most solutions here assume you will have electricity.  I used to visit a hunt camp in SW VA that was really off the grid.  Still, it had gas lights and refrig that required propane.  Of course we had vehicles and not horses.  You have to plan way ahead.  If we wanted warm water to take a bath, we had to put a large pot of very cold creek water on a foot bridge to warm up in the sun (forget rainy days).  Firewood needs to be cut a year ahead.  Fruit trees take many years.  You need a sewage solution even if it is a simple hole.  Livestock, feed, groceries, medicine, and the list goes on.  Soap is essential.  Matches!
 
How OFF do you want to be?

[Dixie Dude]

If it were up to me, I could live in a 20'x20' log cabin.  But the wife wants comfort like running water, sewage, power for refrigeration and ac.  I have designed homes for people over the years.  I draw up plans on the side.  I have done, plumbing, electrical, framing, roofing, anything to do with a house I have done.  However, I am getting older, not as strong, or quick as I used to be. 
 
I am also considering a small home with basement and 2 bedrooms in the attic area of a home.  We would live on the main floor 90% of the time.  Basement would be used as shop/storage/reloading area, maybe garage.  Two bedrooms upstairs would only be for when one of the kids came to visit with grandkids.  They would be left unused most of the time.  If I go this route, I would use 2" x 6" walls with the new heavy foam insulation, ground water heat pump.  Wood heat as an alternative if needed.  Smaller windows, limited outside doors.  Metal roof, well septic tank and at least 12 acres plus.  Rural area to avoid high taxes.  Due to my age, I would get a home dried in, and probably finish the inside myself.  My wife knows how to do ceramic tile.  She also knows electrical work as she ran her own computer business, and helped build two other homes. 
 
The semi-underground home that I have seen built intrigues me.  No heating needed, but does need AC.  No painting, minimum maintenance as long as the drainage around the home is over engineered.  Minimum electrical bills.  I would probably use pasive solar water heating.  Maybe even minimum solar panels to operate lights and refrigeration/freezer.  Wouldn't need enough solar for AC since it would only be used in the summer.  Could use a generator for that if things got really long term. 
 
Things to think about:
 
1) Bankrupt America with hyper-inflation causing economic meltdown leading to riots, roving bands of gangs out of inner cities.
2) Either solar EMP or some rogue country using an EMP bomb above us to knock out power.  (National Geographic said if this happened, it would take 6 months to 2 years to restore power in America, again leading to people fleeing inner cities looking for food).
3) New Madrid earthquake, causing pipeline and bridge disruptions across the Mississippi.  Might not be as bad as the other two, but would cause food, gasoline, and natural gas supply problems.  This earthquake is overdue according to experts.
4) Yellowstone eruption, causing ash to cover the upper plains states, thus food shortages.  Yellowstone has risen 3" a year the last three years.  There is a buildup.
5) Pandemic flu or some other pandemic that would require people to stay home and indoors until it was contained. 
 
I belive the route we are going right now #1 will happen.  The rest will happen sooner or later.  So prepare if you can, that is why I want to retire early in January 2013 for me if possible and move to a more remote area to live at least semi off the grid. 
 
The

[hillbill]

underground houses do also have problems i dont think anyone has described here.my brother built and lives in a partial underground house.moisture is a problem even when built correctly.in the summer he has to run his central air con a bit each day just to relieve the humidity which can cause mold and dampness in closets and closed cabinets.
if your going to heat with wood, you must have a airtite stove that is easily regulated. it is very easy to get it too hot in a tight house.
also if not built correctly you can have water leakage thru the walls which makes a real mess.

[Rex in OTZ]

This guy has some good ideas. makes you think.
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJsDOD0dTQI&feature=related
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXu45MHrnTk&feature=relmfu
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FacIm3bHbYc&feature=relmfu