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Author Topic: 6.5 CMR  (Read 2166 times)

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Offline ibgp3

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6.5 CMR
« on: September 26, 2012, 10:51:22 AM »
6.5 Creedmoor is basically the 250 Savage "Hornady Improved"
...necked out from .257 to .264 and the shoulders blown out to almost straight wall.
Making brass from 250 Savage is like neck sizing, and then it has to be fireformed.
I have an LR6.5 (oversized AR) that I think of as the best rifle I ever fired.

The little guy on the left is almost a 6.5 Grendel, it's a 7.62x39 necked down to 6.5.
....when it gets fireformed the shoulder will straighten out.


The case next to the Grendel is a 22-250 necked out to 6.5.
...next to it is a 6.5 Creedmoor (Fireforming makes a difference!!)
...Then on the right is my Handi Special.
...6.5 Creedmoor made from 303British brass. (rimmed)
...6.5CMR


I sent a .223 bull barrel to be bored out to 6.5 back in January. It is due to be coming home soon.
My original plan was to neck and throat it and experiment with the .223 case.
...forget the .223, it's going straight to CMR.


When Dinny gets back we will compare the Grendel and the Creedmoor.
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Offline handishooter

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 07:36:47 PM »
My favorite handy is a stub I built in 6.5x53r which is the the old Dutch service round, there were a few British Rifle makers that built rifles in that caliber, they called it the .256 Mannlicher. I make my brass out of .303 also and it looks just like what you have made there, it is a great round. I took my first deer with an old Dutch carbine that I still have, the handi in that caliber is great because I have a good scope and my eyes aren't what they used too.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 12:38:37 AM »
It always seems to turn up, an old cartridge just like any new one. It's great to hear that it is a successful one for you.


The CMR will lose a lot of the "old-world" look when it's fire-formed and straight walled like the fatter one next to it.


One of the neat things is that rimmed brass can be made from 303, 30-40Krag, or 307Win. Rimless can be made from the 250 savage family, the 308Win family, the 30-06 family.
...and I'm told a 308 extractor will work with any of them.
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 12:46:53 AM »
gp,
 
I like this one, keep us posted on your project. 
 
My experience with making rim & rimless cartridges for the same chamber is one extractor/ejector will not work for both.  Of course mine are Profino ejectors and your mileage may differ. ;)
 
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 05:45:04 AM »
The Gunsmith spent 3 weeks "working on the extractors" and one of them worked.
I ordered another extractor that he won't get to touch.
In the meantime I get one rifle at a time.
Wednesday this one goes out to fireform some brass.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »
Quote from: ibgp3 on November 12, 2012, 05:45:04 AM
The Gunsmith spent 3 weeks "working on the extractors" and one of them worked.
I ordered another extractor that he won't get to touch.
In the meantime I get one rifle at a time.
Wednesday this one goes out to fireform some brass.


LORDY LORDY!! Look at the barrel on that sucker!!!  :-[ :-[ :-[

Now I feel a bit inadequite... :o ;)

CW
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 01:14:59 PM »
If you look at it that way,
...I'm impressed that the barrel only makes you feel a bit inadequate.


 ::)
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 04:16:11 AM »
Nice little cartridge you've got there  ;D ; Ive thought along similar lines to the 6.5/30-30 (probably the 307 makes more sense?) and for rimless that 6.5/39mm should be a dandy. Obviously I love super cheap and available brass. Somewhere I have an article on a record breaking 1000 yd. group some years back with a 6.5. IIRC it calculates out to about 1/4 MOA; it is a nice caliber with a lot more bullet selection than our .257s.
Your rig looks 'purposeful'.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 07:08:48 AM »
GP,
  Is the far right case completely formed? It looks to have more taper and be a bit thinner than the 6.5CM case next to it. I think part of what make the 6.5CM so accurate is it's efficient case design. That's not saying your case design won't be accurate, but it might not be the exact same as the original CM.

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline dave29

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 09:26:13 AM »
I don't think it has been fireformed yet. It should blow out just like the other case.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 09:36:38 AM »




The case on the far right has not been fireformed.
    until Saturday I did not have any way to fireform a rimmed CM.


I just got back from the range with one fireformed case.
...and a lesson learned: 303Brit will NOT be used for 6.5CMR brass.


I'll post a picture later, but I did not want to blow out a case, and the fireforming makes the case look like it is rebated.


Looks like I will be stuck with 307Win.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 10:14:33 AM »

Supposed to be "within tolerances", but I would not reload this case or load another like it.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 04:44:56 AM »
After working 12-18hrs  nearly every single day for 7 months now, I don't always understand everything I read. Now I got it. What happened to the case?

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 04:54:10 AM »
Looks like it expanded above the webb quite a bit so the chamber is actually larger dia. than 303 cases at the butt. What is the size differential there?
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 05:03:34 AM »
The 303 case is not supported at the case head. Close but no cigar.
...fireforming I wanted, but not like that.
30-40 Krag would be the same, so it's out too.



I'll make some cases from 307 and 444.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 05:14:36 AM »
Well there goes my idea to recommend the 30-40K case. I'll look around the web tonight and see if there are other options.

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 05:28:03 AM »
There HAS to be a previously developed reamer for the 303/30-40 cases to 6.5, maybe not with that specific shoulder, then again........? After all, wildcattin' has been going on with those cases for SOOO long, both here an in Oz, etc.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 05:59:40 AM »
I may be a fan of the Creedmoor because of the LR6.5; I have a Savage in the 6.5CM and it has not been anywhere near as great.
...but,
.......I'm stuck to this chamber now, so 307 and 444 will be the brass I start forming.




..plus, as Dinny pointed out, the case itself is well designed.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 11:21:24 AM »
I stood in line for 45 minutes to shoot ten rounds of CMR made from 307Win.
Flawless operation and fireformed brass looks good.


First three rounds went into a 3/4" group.
...I didn't check the rest....load, pop, and go.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2012, 03:56:52 AM »

Fireformed 6.5CMR. (left-303Brit, right-307Win)

Brass that has been fired in my DPMS LR6.5 and my Savage 6.5 go through the full length sizing die as if they were being neck sized.
Brass fired in the H&R takes almost as much effort to resize as to form it in the first place.


Apparently the virgin reamer used on the H&R is larger than the production reamers used on assembly lines. Even the 307 brass shows a line at the top of the web. (But not like the Brit)


"within tolerances"
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2012, 04:43:05 AM »
Thats going to cost cases, I think, after only a few reloads. I suppose with the loads you want to use that the load is stout and FL sizing, rather than neck & shoulder, is needed?
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2012, 05:51:52 AM »
Quote from: gcrank1 on November 16, 2012, 04:43:05 AM
Thats going to cost cases, I think, after only a few reloads. I suppose with the loads you want to use that the load is stout and FL sizing, rather than neck & shoulder, is needed?
I do not plan to size any more than necessary for functioning in the Handi.
..I had gotten accustomed to very little sizing with the LR and the Savage,
...even with stout loads.


I'm told that rimmed Handi's need at least a push on the shoulder for best accuracy.
..Brass out of this Handi requires full body sizing to get to the shoulder.
...I will also try a neck sizer.
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Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 05:50:43 AM »
I think your reamer was not ground to spec


if you ordered a reamer based on the .303Brit, the base area should be too small for the 307 cartridge.

I'd be talking to the reamer maker, or gunsmith, if the GS ordered it....

something ain't right.


if someone else is looking into this area, maybe consider the EPPS family of cartridges
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 06:48:42 AM »
The reamer was a standard 6.5 Creedmoor reamer I ordered from 4D.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 11:34:11 AM »

6.5CMR made from 444 Marlin. (Not yet fireformed.)




This functions with the 308 extractor.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 05:17:42 AM »
This will work as well for 30-06 class cases to rimless.
...I'll do some for practice.   

.444Marlin
1st  step:  cut-off 300H&H die   \
2nd step:  cut-off 7mm mag die   ---> cheapest Lee dies
3rd  step:  cut-off 260Rem die   /
4th  step:  dremel cut.
5th  step:  ream and trim with Forster
6th  step:  final CM sizing.
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2012, 11:45:24 AM »
Quote from: bikerbeans on September 27, 2012, 12:46:53 AM
My experience with making rim & rimless cartridges for the same chamber is one extractor/ejector will not work for both.  Of course mine are Profino ejectors and your mileage may differ. ;)
BB


The outcome is a little strange, but I am glad you got me started looking at this.


The factory 308 extractor works with cases made from 307 and rimless cases.
.....it does not work with cases made from 444 Marlin.


The handmade extractor works with cases made from 307 and 444 Marlin,
....it does not work with rimless cases.
 :o ;D :o ;D :o :P
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2012, 03:56:43 PM »

Quote from: ibgp3 on November 22, 2012, 05:17:42 AM
This will work as well for 30-06 class cases to rimless.

.444Marlin
1st  step:  cut-off 300H&H die   \
2nd step:  cut-off 7mm mag die   ---> cheapest Lee dies
3rd  step:  cut-off 260Rem die   /
4th  step:  dremel cut.
5th  step:  ream and trim with Forster
6th  step:  final CM sizing.
rimless CM cases can be made from:
       22/250,
       243 Win.,6mm Rem.,244 Rem.,6mm/06,
       25/06,250 Savage,257 Roberts,
       270 Win.,
       280 Rem.,7mm/08,7x57mm
       308 Win. (7.62 NATO),30/06
       and others


270 to 6.5CM
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Offline ibgp3

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2012, 04:12:56 PM »

Fireformed 6.5CM
....from the left:
headstamp - .444 Marlin
headstamp - .307 Winchester
headstamp - .308 Winchester
headstamp - .270 Winchester

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 6.5 CMR
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »
I re-found that article on the record 6.5, it was in the 'SGN, Mausers' special publication.
Mention was made of the 1999 British Long Range Benchrest Championship won by a Tikka Continental in 6.5 x 55; group size was 10 shots in 4.4" at 1000yd.
Sweet!
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"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974
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