Author Topic: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?  (Read 957 times)

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Offline rfd

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H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« on: February 10, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »
you folks that have this rifle, didja need to slug the barrel to determine the bore size in order to determine how you wanna size yer cast boolits?

what bore size did ya find?

how much larger in diameter should the cast boolit be?


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Offline gcrank1

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2013, 01:18:10 PM »
You want to use as big a dia. bullet as comfortably fits a fully fire-formed case mouth. This fills the critical throat and prevents gas cutting of the cast bullet base. It does not matter if the groove dia. of the barrel is a few thou' smaller, the lead wont know or care, but if you use too small a dia. bullet to fit that smaller barrel dimension the bullet will know and wont like it.
Many have found they need a .459 bullet, but some it has been a .458 and others a .460, etc. So, you have to shoot some cartridges (only a couple will do) or fire-form some brass, then chamfer the case mouth to ensure there is no residual crimp still curving in to find what fits that mouth. You will need a dial caliper or mic. with a min. +/- .001 tolerance (which you can practically read to +/- .0005").
Do NOT resize these cases.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline rfd

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2013, 04:21:43 PM »
You want to use as big a dia. bullet as comfortably fits a fully fire-formed case mouth. This fills the critical throat and prevents gas cutting of the cast bullet base. It does not matter if the groove dia. of the barrel is a few thou' smaller, the lead wont know or care, but if you use too small a dia. bullet to fit that smaller barrel dimension the bullet will know and wont like it.
Many have found they need a .459 bullet, but some it has been a .458 and others a .460, etc. So, you have to shoot some cartridges (only a couple will do) or fire-form some brass, then chamfer the case mouth to ensure there is no residual crimp still curving in to find what fits that mouth. You will need a dial caliper or mic. with a min. +/- .001 tolerance (which you can practically read to +/- .0005").
Do NOT resize these cases.

i've loaded jacketed rifle rounds in the past, never cast lead.  i've currently loaded thousands of rounds of cast lswc for 45acp and .38spl.  so i read your post over several times and went "what is he talking about???".  a few minutes went by and then the light bulb went off and ah yes .... now i understand!  excellent.  thank you sir!



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Offline gcrank1

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 05:46:55 PM »
The old reloader's admonition is you 'have to forget what you know about jacketed bullets when you load lead'. The big thing to keep in mind is that the stiff jacket can grab rifling even if it isnt full groove dia and still shoot decent, and if that same bullet doesnt fill up the throat (or 'ball seat') of the front of the chamber it will not gas cut and degrade its flight upon exiting the bore. Lead is soft, even 'hard' lead is soft compared to gilding metal jackets. That hot gas acts like a cutting torch up around the base band if the cast bullet is too small for that throat dia.
This tip might help you determine a good trial size for some casts: since you have some 'too small for a 45-70' in the 45acp bullets you maybe can wrap one with tape to up the dia. until it will fit with a firmish finger fit in the fire-formed  and prepped case mouth, then mic. that dia. The perfect fit is just enough dia. to stay put and still chamber up and then extract/eject. If it is just big enough to need the seater die to lightly press it in and a smidge of crimp, and still chamber and extract cleanly you have it made. The cast reloads are low pressure and the cases can be reloaded many times without resizing. Decap,recap, powder & ball, then go shoot. It may seem a little futzy compared to jacketed, but once you have it done it is SO quick, slick and easy to reload.
The reason you dont want to resize the cases is that the typical dieset is for jacketed bullets and the sizer greatly undersized the neck, then the expander ball stretches it out to hold a jacketed bullet, but is still too small for the right sized lead bullet. You can buy 'lead bullet' size expander balls, but you will still be overworking the brass.
The way I do it I have some cases I've loaded at least 20 times (and if I really was keeping track it could be twice that) and still going strong. (EverReady Bunny Brass?)
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline rfd

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 12:58:38 AM »
please school me some more, sir ...

i resize, expand, seat, taper crimp with cast loads for my .45acp, which makes sense since it's an auto and who knows where the round of the brass will lie when it gets fed into the chamber.  my lead swc bullets are sized for .45acp at .452" (missouri and penn 200 grain lead, bh 12). 

i have a batch of penn 360 and 405 grain .459", bh 12 bullets coming, as well as missouri 405 grain .458", bh 18 - just for the 45-70.

i've got both lee and rcbs dies for 45-70, for my redding t-7 press.  i have new unfired starline brass coming, along with a batch of once-fired mixed brass.  i plan i starting with reduced pistol powder loads and have unique, trail boss, w231 and bullseye powders (using the published www.gmdr.com start load recipes).  i also have a few boxes of black hills 45-70 405gr loads on the way.

aside from making up a dummy round or two, are you saying that once fire formed, all that's need to be done wtih 45-70 brass is prime, charge, seat, crimp, shoot?  that's it?  no full or neck sizing required?

since the h&r is a single shot, i was planning on marking and orienting the brass for the same chambering, for all shooting.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 05:53:27 AM »
Well harrumphhhh, spit......
I just got done writing about half a book and it evaporated into the ether.......

OK, condensed version:

You are building a perfectly fitting for your rifle chamber cartridge; you can do this because, unlike the factory, your loads are for your gun, not every like chambered gun out there. Your 45ACP loads are for a nicely designed and executed auto-loader chamber which is usually to a higher standard than a lot of rifle barrels. Your process is good for your pistol, your rifle is not your pistol.

Forget about orienting the brass with a mark on the base, at least for now. Unless you use the advanced technique of reading the interior of the case wall thicknesses, 360deg. from base to mouth, to orient the case interior body proper (that is where the shaped charge is coming from) it will do no good. It wont do you any harm, either, just wont do what you thought it would.

Are those once fired cases from your gun? if not make sure they all chamber up in yours then do the case mouth prep. to be able to introduce the cast bullet base.

Use 10.0-12.0 of unique to get used to the gun. My guess is the .459's over the Unique will do well right off. This is where a dummy may do you some good. If a case that fits the chamber well doesnt fit so well with a .459, the .458 may be just what you need. You really need to pop off a few in your rifle (twice will completely do it) to get real, fully fire-formed to your chamber cases. So make some that fit (5 or 6) and use those for initial developement.

Yes, its that easy, when your cases fit your chamber, to decap (I use the Lee Universal Decapping Die), recap, powder and 'ball'. When you are not making HOT loads (and typically, almost by definition, cast bullet loads are not hot) you dont need to resize unless the cases get sticky to chamber up or extract from too much expansion (or you get a 'new' lot of once fired from another rifle and want to start from the beginning with them).

Seat to depth; ie, the crimp groove and use only about as must crimp as needed to roll that little bit of flare back around the bullet and maybe a smidge more.

FLS a couple sticks of the once fired, same headstamp brass with each dieset. You may find that the size die/expander ball in them gives slightly different bullet to case fit.

IME, if the bullet fits the expanded case neck to fill the chamber throat well, it doesnt seem to matter if my bullets are soft lead or the harder WWts they dont lead up at BP equiv. velo's. with smokeless powder. I dont water quench or use Lino and even 'hard lead' is pretty soft compared to jacketed bullets, so FIT to the THROAT is CRITICAL.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline rfd

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 06:49:18 AM »
i sure do appreciate your time and efforts in helping me, and i'm real sorry you lost yer first typings.  i hate it when that happens to me!

the new brass will be unfired starline.  the once-fired brass came from another gun or guns, dunno for sure, but will be 2 or 3 mixed head stamps.

i'll see how the starline and different brands of once-fired brass chambers, then make up some dummies for each and check the head space.  if all looks well i'll make up some reduced load unique rounds and see how they perform.  i'll see how the oregon trail bullets fit in both the new and used cases with and without resizing.

thanx again for all yer help, sir!



 


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Offline Ol BW

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 07:52:48 AM »
If I have a long post I try to copy and paste it in another program (like notepad or word pad on windows) so if I don't cross my fingers and hold my tounge just right before I hit the send key I will still have it.  :D

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 08:47:39 AM »
FWIW I have six (had 7 but made a 45-120 and 50-140 out of a couple of em) H&R 45-70 barrels, all will chamber .460" cast bullets in Starline brass, that would include the original 50-140 BC barrel.

As for lost posts, if I type a lot of text, I highlight and copy it first, that leaves on the clipboard so it can be pasted into a new window if needed, no need to save it elsewhere first. I've always been able to use the browser's back button to go back to the original new post or reply page, so I've never actually lost a post and had to retype it yet, that applies to getting the Forbidden page as well, just hit the back button if trying to submit a post, or refresh(reload page) if navigating.  ;)

Tim
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 08:57:05 AM »
Maybe its a 'message from above' for me to be brief?  :o
Thax for the tips, I'll have to look into that and practice it up.
I do believe that where I went wrong was to somehow not hit the 'always stay logged on' (or whatever) upon Login, so by the time I was done it took me back to the Login screen when I hit preview or send. It was nowhere to be found with back or forward or refresh, just the empty field of my previous 'erudite missive'  :'( .
I will endeavor to persevere......
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 09:03:28 AM »
If you get logged out, that would throw a monkey wrench in the works,  but the copy and paste(incremental on longer replies) prior to hitting submit/save woulda saved ya unless you restarted the PC. Copy is done by holding down the left mouse button and dragging it over the lines of text you want to copy so it's highlighted, then hit Ctrl C or right click and copy, then Crtl P or right click and paste to put it where ya want it pasted.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline rfd

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Re: H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 - bore size?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 11:39:23 AM »
i love this site, you guys are great and it's well run.  just sent in a paypal donation.  thanx again, folks! 
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