Author Topic: .45 Colt vs. .30-30 (Read 6812 times)

Sierra Sherpa · « **on:** February 24, 2013, 11:52:07 AM »

I've started looking for a fun gun to compliment my Win. 94 .30-30; something to throw lead at the target range, in the Sierra Nevada mountains during deer season and add to my reloading hobby. I'm interested in the Rossi 92, thinking that the .45 Colt, 20" octagon barrel could fulfill my needs. Not being familiar with hardly any handgun cartridges -- I like long guns -- I've researched both the Colt round as well as the much-ballyhooed .454 Casull. In the course of this quest I ran across Paco Kelly's ".45 (long) Colt in Leveraction Rifles."

It's an impressive article and using a formula to calculate "Killing Scale" of the .45 Colt he writes, "...a .44 mag or heavy loaded .45 long Colt fired from a rifle is more powerful than a .30-30 at 100 yards...actually they are more powerful than the great .30-30 at a lot further than 100 yards..." That's a mouthful, IMO. Do you all concur and have you first-hand experience that supports this statement?

Finally, what's your take on the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt or .454 Casull? Are there any mechanical problems plaguing the firearm beyond the normal new-gun break-in glitches?

Ranch13 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:09:46 PM »

While the 45 colt is a fun cartridge in a lever gun, it's in noway shape or fashion as powerful as a 30-30 at 100 yds, and when it gets beyond 100 yds, the 30-30 makes placing the shot a good bit more certain than with the 45 colt.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:21:45 PM »

Quote from: Ranch13 on February 24, 2013, 12:09:46 PM

While the 45 colt is a fun cartridge in a lever gun, it's in noway shape or fashion as powerful as a 30-30 at 100 yds, and when it gets beyond 100 yds, the 30-30 makes placing the shot a good bit more certain than with the 45 colt.

While its bullets are not stream lined and will shed velocity and trejectory quicker than a 30-30. DO NOT FOOL YOURSELF... A hot loaded 45 COLT leaves a 30-30 in the dust, power wise even out at 100 yards...

I have load that from my Marlin, shoots a 45Colt with a 250g bullet at close to 2000fps. I have 300g loadings that exceed 1800fps.

The Rossi can be OK or a dog, I have seen both... Winchester and Marlin also both offer 45 Colts. Rossi is the only lever in 454 I know of.

To show the power differences, the 45Colt from a rifle, with these hot loadings, is about 90% of a 454 when fired from a revolver.

My 454 rifle, with a 200g bullet approaches 2900fps!

CW

Ranger99 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:23:23 PM »

never had a 45 colt anything so i
can't compare. hard to lose with a
30/30. as popular as the colt round
is, there must be something to it
despite the bad reviews and derision
of the magazine writers. what is it-
140 years or so of use now?

FPH · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:33:12 PM »

http://www.chuckhawks.com/loading_45Colt_rifles.htm

Sierra Sherpa · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:35:57 PM »

CW, I can't afford the new Made in Japan Winchesters and, while I know the Marlin is a good gun, I prefer the lines of the Rossi. I'd also heard of some accuracy problems in the .45 Colt Marlins in other posts. I do like the interchangeability of the .45 Colt and .454 Casull, but wonder how much I would use that feature in reality. There is a used .454 Puma at my local gun store but I'd read some cautionary tales on this gun as well.

I must admit to being skeptical on Mr. Kelly's claim of the .45 Colt vs. the .30-30 and still wonder how this can be just given the comparative dimensions of the brass casings. Am I correct in assuming that, given the velocity loss and resultant trajectory arc of the .45 Colt at 100 yds. over the .30-30, hitting your target is more challenging with the .45, but that actually doing so results in a cleaner kill if the right bullet lands in the right spot?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:46:49 PM »

With the loads we are speaking of, and limiting distances to say 150 yards. There is NO appreciable differences in trejectory.

I have not read of accuracy problems with Marlins... at least I don't remember them if I did.

AS for Rossi's, they can be OK to aweful and I like the ''look'' better too as its a copy of a 92 Winchester. The Marlin is too short a action for the 454. The Winchester '94 can take it length wise, but not power wise.

I know about the cost, they are sky high of late...

I would look that Rossi over good and see if you can shoot it before or if not, ask about bring it back IF there are issues.

I have a std 1894 Marlin, a 1894 LTD, a Winchester '2 and two H&R single shots all in 45 Colt. I also have about 10 hand guns so chambered. I have been shooting the 45 Colt on game from both rifles and revolvers for over 25 years. It speaks with authority and within its limited range is a real power house.

CW

kynardsj · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:50:12 PM »

My 20 inch Encore in 45 Colt with a 240 XTP Mag over a stout load of Lilgun will bodyslam anything I need it to. Not putting down the 30-30 as it's performance, past and present, speaks for itself. I'm just a huge fan of the old 45 Colt. Now if you were to step up to a 454 Casull. A 300 gr XTP Mag over a load of H110 or Lilgun in a rifle equals....OMG. When I had my Puma Lever action in 454 there was nothing on this continent that I could hunt and feel under gunned. It's just that bada** !

cwlongshot · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:00:10 PM »

Its been mentioned twice now and I too want to be sure its not thought that I don't like the 30-30... Its not that at all. I like the 30-30 just fine!!

The 30-30 is a caliber thats been there and done that, it flat works and all the ''bad'' you read about it is almost 100% people looking to blame something for there poor accuracy or hunting ability.

The 30-30 is pretty much a 200yard gun, mostly because of accuracy constraints of its open sites. Where the 45Colt lever hot loaded is under the same limitations. Its large diameter bullet makes up for the vel loss with in those yardages.

CW

hillbill · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:36:07 PM »

wow these 45 guys are believers!ill give them that!
they exude passion.and maybe rightly so. it is a good round.but if im standing 100 yrds from a bull elk, the 30 30 is my choice.
i have and shoot 45s.love them. but i dont expect the same performance as a bottle neck rifle cart.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:47:12 PM »

Quote from: hillbill on February 24, 2013, 01:36:07 PM

wow these 45 guys are believers!ill give them that!
they exude passion.and maybe rightly so. it is a good round.but if im standing 100 yrds from a bull elk, the 30 30 is my choice.
i have and shoot 45s.love them. but i dont expect the same performance as a bottle neck rifle cart.

Your not worried about penetration are you?

One time I shot a 130# doe at about 90 yards... She was facing directly toward or so I thought...

My bullet struck at the base of here neck... exited behind her shoulder, re entered at the front of the ham and exited the rump... about three FEET of penetration... That was a 45 Colt, 300g SPEER plated SP going about 1700fps at the muzzle....

Believe me, with good bullets of at least 240g there is not a elk walking the earth they would not expire quickly and humainly if shot (properly) with the 45Colt and a heavy hand load.

CW

FPH · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:52:28 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on February 24, 2013, 01:47:12 PM

Quote from: hillbill on February 24, 2013, 01:36:07 PM
wow these 45 guys are believers!ill give them that!
they exude passion.and maybe rightly so. it is a good round.but if im standing 100 yrds from a bull elk, the 30 30 is my choice.
i have and shoot 45s.love them. but i dont expect the same performance as a bottle neck rifle cart.

Your not worried about penetration are you?

One time I shot a 130# doe at about 90 yards... She was facing directly toward or so I thought...

My bullet struck at the base of here neck... exited behind her shoulder, re entered at the front of the ham and exited the rump... about three FEET of penetration... That was a 45 Colt, 300g SPEER plated SP going about 1700fps at the muzzle....

Believe me, with good bullets of at least 240g there is not a elk walking the earth they would not expire quickly and humainly if shot (properly) with the 45Colt and a heavy hand load.

CW

While I believe the caliber is good to 150 yds or so, I think your velocities are off. Yes I have a friend who loads for both his S & W and his Marlin in .45 and he does measure velocities and he tends to load hot.

kynardsj · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:53:49 PM »

Some bottlenecks absolutely not, but we're just talking about the 30-30 here. What the 45 Colt lacks in speed it makes up for with kinetic energy. A big bullet is harder to stop once it gets going. There are some good articles on John Linebaugh's website about this and what a 255 gr Keith style bullet at 900-950 fps will do to an elk. Still not knocking the 30-30. Just a matter of liking a Ford or Chevy, red truck or blue truck sort of thing.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2013, 05:21:59 PM »

My chronograph tells me that a 260 gr keith bullet hot loaded in my 45 colt winchester will do 1655 fps , now at 100 yds that bullet drops 8 inches and gets there with 900 ish fpe.At 200 its dropped 37 inches and is only carrying a bit over 600 fpe, and will have over 18 inches of windrift in a 10 mph wind...
My chronograph also tells me that a 150 gr bullet from a 20 inch 30-30 will do 2410 and stay within saami spec pressures. That load gets to 100 yds only having drop 3 1/2 inches and still carrying 1390 fpe.At 200 yds the bullet has dropped 15.5 inches and is still carrying the same energy as the 45 colt at 100 yds. Plus the 30-30 has the added bonus of a much better bc and sd.
Having shot both cartridges for a long long time both hunting, plinking and long range competition the 30-30 will do anything the 45 colt will with much more certainty at any given distance.
However the 45 colt does have that fun factor involved that the 30-30 doesn't quite get.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2013, 12:31:43 AM »

im with ranch and hillhill on this. If we were talking 50 yards id say its a toss up but when the range gets out to a 100 yards or more the 3030 wins hands down. Ive killed animals at a 100 yards with the 454 and 45 colt and yes it does kill them but you more times then no are going to do some tracking. the 3030 does a much better job of putting them down in there tracks. Like i said ive killed a truck load of deer with handguns and rifles in handgun calibers and they work but if i had to make a choise on a once in a lifetime hunt and the ranges were going to be easily a 100 yards there wouldnt even be a contest. Make mine a 3030.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:40:26 AM »

Just to be clear...

I'm speaking of a 45 Colt with "Ruger" level loads fired from a RIFLE barrel. Compaired to a 30-30 also fired from a rifle barrel.

IF I was comparing a 45 Colt hand gun to a 30-30 rifle, I would be 100% in agreement about the only to 50 yard statement.

It's tought to compair the two on face value because the 30-30 dosent have heavy enough bullets and the 45 they are not light enough...

BUT if you where to load a 220g in the 30-30 with a top loading I seriously doubt you would reach 17-1800 fps. For the sake of argument lets just say 1800 fps.
In the long colt, Hornady makes a 225 FTX and I have recipe fly been shooting and chronographing some. I am OVER 2000fps from a 20" barrel... I agree they are not equil, but saying the 30/30 is better... Better at what, going slower and offering less energy on target with in 100 yards? If so, I stand corrected, you are correct the 30-30 IS slower and offeres less energy with these loadings.

It's not completely a suprise really. As much as the 30-30 is meligned it is also greatly adored. Rightfully so its a wonderful cartridge. But something that almost always missing from all such comparisons is the killing ability of a larger diameter bullet.

This same "argument" appears when comparing the 357 Mag (again in a rifle) to a 30-30 in a rifle. The 30-30 is LUCKY to reach 22-2300 fps with a 150g bullet regulars less of claimed velocities, chrono some, I have! The 357 with a heavier 158 SP and new powders will Just exceed 2000 fps. But again with a slightly heavier but much larger diameter bullet. MOST people will argue adimantly that the 30-30 is superior. I do not agree as the 30-30 MIGHT expand to 35 cal. But a .357 SP at 2K WILL expand likely past 40 cal... It's every bit a 30-30 WITH IN range limitations of say 100 yards.

It's similar to the malarkey hand "cannon" shooters spied with the contender line of cartridages. Take the 375 for example... My 375 WINCHESTER will move a 220 g slug at 2300 fps. (Choreographed) everyone here self included will say its a good Deer/Blk bear round at say 150 yards. But add about 100 fps and three inicials to its name and now its good for the biggest toughest critters walking the earth.... WHY??? Will it work hell ya and it has, but is my win 375 less a caliber? VERY slightly yes. Would IT dump a buff or lion, bet your arse it would!!

It's perception and reality and the willingness to really look into each calibers abilitys. Experience has a lesser part but is the cement that holds togather the argument. Knoledge is power, the day we stop learning is the day we die...

Peace brothers,

CW

Ranch13 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:50:46 AM »

Just to be clear , the numbers I used are actual from my chronograph, the 45 colt loads are ruger level loads from a rifle. If you actually chronograph loads you will soon find out that with the pistol cartridges like the 45 colt the best you'll do is gain 300 fps from a rifle over a 7.5 inch handgun.
There are a number of ballistics calculators available on the web, that you can plug the chronograph numbers into and get some raw data.
Another common analigy to think about is the 44-40. We so often see the claim that in it's hv rifle only loads it was a better deer gun than the 30-30. But then one has to stop and wonder as to why then did the 44-40 go obscolete with no rifles produced after the 1930's until the CAS craze hit, yet the 30-30 never stopped production?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2013, 06:27:47 AM »

Ranch,

I have owned and been using a chronograph for my loads for over ten years...

All my listed velocities are my loads from my guns over my chronograph. I know of what my chrono reads...
I get almost a 200fps boost shooting a 6" 10mm compaired to a 4.6" stock barrel.

The 45 colt loads are loaded to 19K. Ruger level loads approach 30K... Not many calibers make that claim. A 300 fps boost is easily attained in this caliber. I have seen almsot 500 fps boosts when shot thru my old 24" cowboy barrel.

I'm not here to argue, how boring would it be if we all agreed.
With this caliber I have been at it with all actions and barrel length for a very long time. I am simply reflecting what I have seen and done. Not other people's experences gleaned from reading a book or story.
As I mentioned earlier, bullet diameter is a variable that has a lot to do with killing power yet is not calculated into opinions of calibers. No one will even convince me a 200g 30 cal going X fps is a better killer than a 200g 45 cal going same speed. How much extra speed is needed to be added to the 30 or how much slower the 45 would need to go to even the fields is up for argument. But even... Not by a good margin!

CW

Blackhawker · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2013, 08:45:38 AM »

I guess I'll chime in here...
I have both and both are lots of fun to shoot. If I had to chose which to get, I don't know which way I'd go. It all would depend on the type of shooting one does for this decision.
I load stout Ruger loads in my 45 Colt 94 and at longer distances, such as 100 yards or more, I'd go with the 30-30. Under 100 yards, both do about the same in visible "destruction" and power. The 45 Colt goes through more hard targets than the 30-30 but the 30-30 makes a lot more of them "explode" so to speak. I'd say the energy is roughly the same.
Here is what I've discovered about my Winchester 94's and my 45 Colt in which I always use Ruger loads. All in all, I'd say that I've probably fired about 4,000 rounds from the 45 Colt and maybe 2,500 or 3,000 from the 30-30. I have replaced many parts on the 45 Colt (ejectors, extractors, and a loading gate). I have no idea if this has anything to do with high pressures but the 45 Colt has broken numerous times yet the 30-30 has never failed. Both are the same year of rifle and both were purchased within a few months of each other. Oddly, I think the 30-30 produces more pressure than the hot loaded 45 Colts but for some reason, my 45 Colt levergun has broken many times.

Again, both are really fun rifles if you want a lever loader. Personally, I hate to pick up brass and I've gone to using my H&R's for both calibers and my leverguns have become safe queens. I believe the H&R's can handle more abuse than the Winchesters too.

RPRNY · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2013, 09:16:57 AM »

Tough one this, two classic cartridges that I love. In a lever gun, I would have to say 30-30. Marlin 30-30s are still readily available sub $350 in good condition. With the 165 gr FTX and Leverevolution powder (or factory ammo of same) the 30-30 is a 200 yard gun for deer. My experiences with Rossi are such that I would not recommend one in good conscience.

On the other hand, my H&R Classic Carbine in 45 Colt/ 454 Casull is about my favorite rifle. Plinkers at 185 gr lead and Trail Boss to my Mini Bushmaster (Hornady 250 gr SST over 32.2 grs H110 - fast and accurate to 150 yards) to 350 gr hard cast destroyers. But that rifle is good to 65,000 psi chamber pressure - not something I would dare approach with a Rossi lever action.

Given the likelihood of a capacious 45 Colt chamber in whatever rifle you buy, I would be looking for a straight grip pre crossbolt safety Marlin in 30-30.

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RPRNY · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:21:31 AM »

I have your solution. The DRC Tracker (need to Google as I cant link in this app) in 454 Casull. Stainless, gorgeous, built to the 336 design but as a proprietary product by DRC. Look to be excellent sights. Pricey - but a gorgeous and reliable lever gun in a cartridge that takes you to the limits of reliable iron sight shooting. Again, the Hornady 250 FTX and H110 or Li'l Gun would be where I would go with this.

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SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:40:55 AM »

The 454 is a very powerful round and it might out power the 30-30 at almost any range with in reason. The debate here is the 30-30 vs 45 Colt , same debate as in 1894 but a few changes have taken place . There are 200 gr jacketed 45 slugs and they really shoot flat . I really don't know if one is that much better and it could flip flop depending on bullet being shot in either the 45 or 30-30.
My personal choice would be a 44 mag.

kynardsj · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2013, 11:28:21 AM »

Here we go with the red truck blue truck thing again. I hunt with a 45 LC in a 20 inch Encore because I just love the round. Have three Rugers in the same caliber. I shoot cast in my wheel guns but the rifle eats a steady diet of 240 gr XTP mags over 26 gr of Lilgun. It's not the max load but if I do my part I can make three shots touch at 100 yards. I have done very little tracking of deer I've shot with this round. Short tracking distances of 40-60 yards. The rest were body slammed and dropped in their tracks. This load is running 1400 + fps from a pistol so I guesstimate my rifle at 1700+. Though I haven't had the opportunity to make a shot much over 100 yards I have killed more than a few at 100 and a bit beyond. One buck at a little over a 100 stopped one of my bullets just under the hide on the far side. A perfect mushroom. The rest were a pass thru with a big hole. I have no problem at all with a 30-30, dang fine caliber. I just shoot the 45's.

Sierra Sherpa · « **Reply #23 on:** February 25, 2013, 11:47:15 AM »

Well fellas, we've covered a lot of ground here and while I can say I'm a lot more educated I can't truthfully say I'm a lot more smarter about everything. I reckon my .45-70 H&R Handi or Uberti Highwall will nix my need for a .454 Casull and it almost sounds like Win. 94 .30-30 is a toss-up -- at least arguably so -- than any planned .45 Colt Rossi. Oh my, that DRC Tracker is just wild and if I save up my retirement pennies....ahh, who am I kidding?

I've revisited the notion of the Marlin 1894 Cowboy octagon barrel .45 Colt, but keep hearing that Remington's takeover has not been for the better. Are things improving any? In my original post, I mentioned the word "fun" in regards to a .45 Colt lever gun. That still applies and may be the deciding factor in the end. In fact, it's been downright fun reading the posts on this thread and I appreciate all those who've taken time to weigh in. If nothing else, I think I've decided that I would still like an octagon barrel so don't you go talking me out of that one!

jimster · « **Reply #24 on:** February 25, 2013, 12:40:56 PM »

I don't know how we can compare a .45 large fat handgun bullet to a .308 rifle bullet. I have shot both a lot, plus a long love affair with a Rossi 24" .45 Colt...love them both, but if I have an animal 165 yrds out, I need the 30-30, if not for anything else, to keep me from having to raise up the sight on the .45 Colt. I know we are talking about hot rodding the .45 as well, but you can hot rod the 30-30 too, then we are right back to where we started, a large fat .45 handgun bullet and a .308 slimmer longer rifle bullet. Not sure we can compare two things so different and be fair about it.
P.S...45 Colt Rossi 92 with 24" oct barrel and tang sight...more fun, way more fun.

Sierra Sherpa · « **Reply #25 on:** February 25, 2013, 09:01:28 PM »

OK, I'm all but convinced to save up and add a .45 Colt lever gun to the stable. It sounds like a fun, efficient round that can also serve a utilitarian purpose (hunting, camp rifle) within it's limitations, much like any other round.

As stated, I'm concerned over the quality control -- or lack thereof -- discussed in some forums in association with Marlin lever actions since Remington's takeover. I have subsequently studied images of Marlin's 1894 Cowboy .45 Colt and it appears less "clunky" than their 1895 and 336 models. Given that, I'll venture a second closer look. However, I had read that the 1892 action has historically been a stronger box than the 1894, surely a note of consideration if I hot-rod the round. Opinions?

Finally, who likes their octagon barreled rifles; is it just added dead weight up front and do you wish you'd gone instead with a round barrel, 20" or 24"?

Ranch13 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 26, 2013, 03:21:42 AM »

Don't overlook some of the used Marlins and Winchesters out there, many of them are in fine condition.
Personally I think a 20 inch barrel is about as good as any when shooting a pistol cartridge with smokeless powder. Now if blackpowder is on the lineup a 24 inch will help get the last bit of velocity.
Round barrel/octagaon , really is a tastes great/ less filling deal

RPRNY · « **Reply #27 on:** February 26, 2013, 05:42:49 AM »

Pre-2010 Marlin if possible. Between a post 2010 Remlin and a Rossi, it's a toss up. The Rossi will need some work but at least it's a known quantity. God only knows what you'll find on a Remlin...

cwlongshot · « **Reply #28 on:** February 26, 2013, 07:39:42 AM »

Quote from: Ranch13 on February 26, 2013, 03:21:42 AM

Don't overlook some of the used Marlins and Winchesters out there, many of them are in fine condition.
Personally I think a 20 inch barrel is about as good as any when shooting a pistol cartridge with smokeless powder. Now if blackpowder is on the lineup a 24 inch will help get the last bit of velocity.
Round barrel/octagaon , really is a tastes great/ less filling deal

I agree 100%!

Back a few posts where you mentioned problems and I commented I did not know of any, I was not thinking of the total lack of quality control since Remington's take over of the Marlin line of firearms... My very bad!! YES I agree and would avoid new production unless you have a very good eye and are allowed to diss assemble!

Older guns are the way to go and as Ranch pointed out, older Winchesters and Marlins have been offered in the 45 Colt as well as 30WCF.

Another angle and one that may fit things together better for you. Is IF your gamma be loading a steady diet of of heavy loads, just going 454 will offer some value able improvement AND you will likely be able to still fire 45 Colts!

The 454 case was designed as an improved vestle with its slightly thicker case and SMALL RIFLE primer pocket its better adapted to properly and uniformly ignite the large dose of ball pistol powders. The. It is also lengthened to prevent its use in a more fragile 45 Colt.

I went 454 for this reason, I have a number of expensive old colts and would hate for someone to get hurt OR damage one of these guns with a Ruger level loads being shot thru a old model P. By going 454 all my heavy loads would be in a case that would not fit in a 45 Colt.

I really enjoy my 45 Colts. They work exceptionally well.

CW

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** February 26, 2013, 09:29:16 AM »

Quote from: kynardsj on February 25, 2013, 11:28:21 AM

Here we go with the red truck blue truck thing again.not really if you offer an opinion it is always good to add your personal opinion. I hunt with a 45 LC in a 20 inch Encore because I just love the round. Have three Rugers in the same caliber. I shoot cast in my wheel guns but the rifle eats a steady diet of 240 gr XTP mags over 26 gr of Lilgun. It's not the max load but if I do my part I can make three shots touch at 100 yards. I have done very little tracking of deer I've shot with this round. Short tracking distances of 40-60 yards. The rest were body slammed and dropped in their tracks. This load is running 1400 + fps from a pistol so I guesstimate my rifle at 1700+. Though I haven't had the opportunity to make a shot much over 100 yards I have killed more than a few at 100 and a bit beyond. One buck at a little over a 100 stopped one of my bullets just under the hide on the far side. A perfect mushroom. The rest were a pass thru with a big hole. I have no problem at all with a 30-30, dang fine caliber. I just shoot the 45's.