Postal Match Results

[Wlscott]

Ok guys, here they are.  

Before you read the results, I want everyone to think about something.  These guns are considered "lower class" firearms by some, and downright cheap by others.  

These guns may not be $1100.00 benchrest guns, but just take a look at some of the groups that were produced.  That's what this whole thing was about.  To show how accurate they can be with a little tinkering (or not).  And they do it over and over again.


Centerfire Rifle Calibers:

Shooter              Rifle          Caliber        Group

Jeff223                           Handi                      .223Rem             .336"
Jeff223                           Handi                      30-30Win            .524"
Wlscott                           Ultra                       .223Rem             .543"
Mac11700                       Survivor                  .308                   .552"
Student                          Handi                       .223                   .645"
Mitchell                           Ultra                        .223                  .682"
Student                          Handi                       .243                  1.255"
Student                          Handi                       .308                  1.991"
Naedlen                         Handi                        .223                  2.661"

Centerfire Pistol Calibers:

Shooter                 Rifle           Caliber    Group

JPH45                              Handi                     .357MAX            .660"
Mag41vance                     Handi                     .357MAX            .818"
JPH45                              Handi                      .44Mag              1.391"
Marv                               Handi                       .357Max            1.756"

Rimfire Calibers:

Shooter                 Rifle            Caliber   Group

Jeff223                             Sportster                  .17HMR            .152"
Leftoverdj                         Sportster                  22LR                .371"
Leftoverdj                         Sportster                  22WMR             .385"
Jeff223                             Sportster                   22LR                .397"
Moonlitin                           Sportster                 22WMR              .415"
Scruffy                              Sportster                  22WMR             1.074"


There they are, read 'em and weep.

Jeff is the over all winner with a .152" group from his HMR.  

Good job everyone and thanks to everyone who sent in a card.  I had fun grading them.

EDIT:  Oh crap, I forgot.....I had one shotgun shooter:
Mitchell Ultra Slug Hunter 12 gauge 1.072"

EDIT II:

I hate that I had to do it this way.  But I just didn't have time to put in loads, optics etc in the first time.  I knew everyone was waiting so I just put in the results.  I'll post the notes now.

Jeff223, shot a .223 Handi, 55 gr Nosler BT with 27.5 grains of BLC2.  He used a Bushnell Scopechief.  His rifle was modified with a trigger job, new crown and lapped barrel.

Jeff's 30-30 was a Handi rifle, and shot 150 gr Sierra SPT, with 34 grains of BLC2. It wore a Simmons Whitetail Expedition 6-18.   No mods to this rife.  His .524" group had a three shot cluster that measured .180".

Wlscott shot an Ultra Varmint in .223.  It wears a Springfield Armory 4-16X56mm mil dot scope with lighted reticle.  The load is a 50 grain Hornady V-Max with 27.5 grains of Varget in Lake City Brass.  Mods include a trigger job and opening up the barrel channel.  My .543" group had a three shot cluster that measured .228".

Mac11700 shot a Survivor in .308win.  He changed the Survivor stock to the Laminated Ultra type.  He also added the steel spacer, and changed the plastic trigger gaurd to the steel one.  His load was Federal Gold Metal Match 168 gr.

Student's Handi in .223 had been glass bedded and wore an o-ring.  His load was a 40 grain V-Max, with 28 grains of Varget, Winchester Brass and a Federal Match Primer.

Mitchell shot an Ultra Varmint in .223.  His load was the Winchester 45 grain Valu Pak.

Student shot a Handi in .243.  His load was a 58 grain V-Max with 40.3 grains of Varget pushing it.  The o-ring had been added to his stock.

Student also shot a Handi in .308. This load was a 147 grain FMJ, with 43.9 grains of Varget.

Naedlan's handi in .223 wore a Sightron 3-12, and shot a 55 grain PSP.

In the pistol calibers:

JPH's Handi in 357Max shot a 195 grain Lyman RNPB (Mold # 358430), with 8.6 grains of #107 surplus powder.  

Mag41vance also shot a 357Max.  He used a 180 grain Hornady XTP with 18.5 grains of W296 pushing it.  His .818" group had a three shot cluster that measured .358".

JPH's Handi in 44mag shot a Cast(?) Lyman 429244 bullet pushed by 25 grains of WC846.  

And finally Marv (21st place), shot a Handi rechambered to 357Max.  His load was the 180 grain Remington hollow point with 19 grains of H110 pushing it.  

On the rimfire side:

Jeff's .17HMR was really humming :shock:     His group was sub-caliber.  His sportster wore a Simmons 44Mag 6.5-20.  

Leftoverdj shot Federal Ultra Match 22LR out of his Sportster.  No mods to his rifle.  

Leftover also shot a Sportster in 22WMR.  His load was the 40 grain JHP, and the scope was the 3-9 Simmons.  

Jeff also shot a Sportster in 22LR.  The load was the CCI Mini Mag, and his scope was a BSA 8-32. This gun had a trigger job.

Moonlitin's Sportster in 22WMR shot Reminton Premier and wore a Swift 4-12 scope.  He added an O-Ring to his forearm.

Scruffy's Free Floated Sportster in 22WMR shot Winchester Silver Box 40 grain HP's.  It wore a Bushnell Banner 3-9X40 scope with circle reticle.

Mitchell's 12 Gauge Ultra Slug Hunter shot Banes Sabots.  

That's it guys.  I'm spent.  NO MORE TYPING FOR ME!!!

[scruffy]

Thanks Wes!!!!!!!!  

later,
scruffy

[scruffy]

Congrats Jeff!!!!

This otta really push some more people to shoot the 17 hummer in the next match!

later,
scruffy

[Wlscott]

Scruffy, I couldn't remember who's card it was.  Had to go back and look.  You're in there now.

[Leftoverdj]

Looks like I'm gonna have to cut back on my .17 HMR insults. Good shooting, Jeff!

[scruffy]

Scruffy, I couldn't remember who's card it was.  Had to go back and look.  You're in there now.

Yea, I probably shouldn't have claimed it, but it's like when you wait till the last minute to do your taxes.  You get what you get and hope not to get beat up too bad....     I won't wait till the last minutes next time.  

Actually, since all I'm shooting now is cards I'll hopefully have a file full of cards before the next match's deasline and I'll just pull out the best and send it in.  :wink:

later,
scruffy

[GrampaMike]

Great Shooting Guys!!!  The rest of us now have some goals to shoot for in the next match...  What was the yardage of each group?  I know they must be in the rules, but the new guys might not know.  Mike

[marv]

Well I didn't 21 st Place not enough shooters.  But that's ok this time.
 It was fun to try, that's the name of the game. Thanks Wlscott for doing the grading. Every bodyget ready for next one, hope we have another.
Marv.

[student]

I just want to know from Jeff if he has somebody strap him down with rebar and duct tape, or what! :grin:

Do you guys want to see if we can make the postal results part of the faq, or make it sticky or something?  That way we can see how things change over time.

Just an idea.

Student

[Wlscott]

Marv, you are officially 21st place :grin:

I'll post more particulars about mods, optics etc when I get the chance.  Hopefully tonight.

[marv]

Thanks Scott for offical 21 st place, I think you have good idea keeping
 records post FAQ's . Be some thing to go back and look at.
 Visitors look at and see what these Two-Bit rifles can do with right tweeking.  
I forgot to put Opyics on my card, 4 X simmions shotgun scope.
Marv.

[JPH45]

Great shootin' guys, nothing to be embaressed of I see. I spent a year and a half trying to get a rifle to shoot my father in law paid to have made up. I never saw anything under 1.5" with that rifle.

De41Mag.....the 2, 44 Mag groups turned in strike me as typical of what I see from mine. Mine was a full case charge (25 grains) of WC846 (a surplus equivelent of BL-C2) under a few  Lymans 429244's DJ had sent me last year to try out. I doubt the load was traveling 1000 fps. 4 shots are in a cluster, 1, probably the 2nd or 3rd is about an inch low of the main group. theoretically, that will make about 2 5/8" at 100. That load bested a 270 GD over 21 grains of H110 by 1/2". Marv's will make 3 1/2". Sounds as though your 44 is shooting within that range and would have even been competitive in the shoot. I think that speaks pretty well of your gun.

What we all need to do is pick jeff223's brain for his complete reloading processes and load development practices as well as his rifle tune up list. I'd think I'd died and gone to Handi Heaven if I was seeing 1/2" groups from my 30-30, but I'm gonna give him a hard run the next match. Enjoyed it guys, and I think everyone who turned a card in is a winner.

[Big Blue]

Congratulations to all of you that entered, with special kudos to Jeff! This is the sort of advertisement, H+R/NEF couldn't buy, at any price.
Don

[mag41vance]

This is the first PM I've ever attempted, and I must say, I learned alot from the shooters here. I know what it took for me to get one card ready for a reload only caliber, so my respect for the quality of the competion is very high.
  Good shooting to all.
 
 Can't wait till the next one. Lets try for a  October 1st deadline. Can we send in archery targets next time? Say 5 shots @ 20 yards.
                       Congrats to all, and thanks to the scoremaster  "Wlscott"
                 RV (vance)

[De41mag]

Congratulations to everyone.  :grin:  

JP;

I believe your right,  I think I keep the the rifle, if for anything, just to enter the postal match next time. I just need to get the rules. Not sure what needs to be done to shoot.
But that some fine shooting by everyone. Those 223's are unbelieveable, those are the kind of groups that was written in a couple of gun mags a year or two ago.
And THANKS to everyone who pulled me up when I was ready to give up on my Ultra. You fellas are really some good friends.

Again, congrats to all of you.
Dennis

[Wlscott]

Can't wait till the next one. Lets try for a October 1st deadline. Can we send in archery targets next time

Vance, if you can shoot it out of a Handi or an Ultra, I'll grade the card :shock:

[Deadeye47]

:shock: Well! With the kind of measurements listed above...I don't know if I can compete or not next time...congratulation guys...

[scruffy]

Hey, it's not about competing for all of us.  My card was shot between rains, swirling wind, new scope, sprinkles, off a bipod on a picnic table, rushed because of the incoming rain, lighning, and thunder.  My 1" group was real life, something I can recreate while hunting, shooting off a hay bale, fense post, hood, or prone (actually I'd shoot better prone but the grass was wet with .5" of standing water where I was shooting so I had to use the table.....)

Anyway, it's fun as long as you make it that way.  With my 22 mag next time will be shot the same way, or may with a millet 3moa reddot (which my sportster mag currently wears).  Although I might pick up some match stuff for the 22lr sportster with it's 6-18x50 mm target scope.  Hmmm, I'm sure I can put together a custom rest, but nothing that will come close to the 17hrm.  But it will hopefully compete with the other 22lr's.

But in the end, the 22mag shooting from hunting positions to see if I can beat my results from this match will be my goal, and will be the most fun too shoot.  Because I won't be competing with anyone else, only myself.  

later,
scruffy

[JPH45]

Thats right, I shot at least 15 groups to get that one from my 357.  I got lucky, the wind, the temperature, the light through the trees, my ability to relax and just simply breathe finally all came together in that one moment, otherwise the best I was shooting was falling between Vance and Marv, with a few not as good as Marv.

My perception of this match is two fold, one it gives us the chance to see the best we are getting from our rifles, and perhaps offers incentive to improve, and a chance to get some honest evaluations of our own methods and the methods of the other guys on the board.

Second and most important perhaps is the expression of our comraderie. Most of us been hanging out now for a year and a half. We started out on the old H&R Talk site and endured through a lot of tough times there, growing through our personality differences, trolls, and just simple group dynamics. Certainly one of the defining moments was when coming to the H&R Talk site, to find it had been closed. That was tough, but again, we somehow perciveered (SP?) and graybeards made a place for us. It was then I decided that I would shoot in the match and everytime we have it. It wasn't about winning or proving anything or anything like that, it is for me just supporting this group of fellow NEF Handi Rifle lovers. I know just how much work Vance put into that target he sent in, and I know he ain't gonna rest, he gonna wring the best he can from that rifle, so will Marv. and as the three of us work with our rifles, we will find loads and dynamics of shooting them that will make each of us and or rifles and our loads better. the best thing is that everyone here benefits, no matter if theyare shootings 357's or 44's, 30-30's,  or 223's. I hope you'll shoot with us, join in on taking our Handis and ourselves to a higher level of performance.

Besides, it's just plain fun as well.

[Mac11700]

First off...I'll thank Wes again for taking the time from his family and work to get all of this done...and I would also like to thank all of those who participated on this Postal Match for showing just how good our.....uhhhhuuum..."utility" rifle will shoot....Jeff...you dog :wink: now I'll have to work twice as had to get that 30 cal winners slot away from you...or maybe it's time to get one of those .17 cals...hmmmmmmmmm...anyway...great job one and all...now all of theose disbelievers  can see just how good these Handi's are.....

Wes...when you get everything together let me know and I'll make it a sticky with all the data if you want...


And to all those others who didn't get a chance to shoot this time ...I would like to invite everyone to try their hands at the next one........perhaps before deer season?


Mac

[student]

That's why I am out here offering my feeble attempts and encouraging others to rise to the challenge.  You get out of the postal match what you put into it, and I'm getting a lot out of it.  Sounds like everybody else is, too.

If you've just been a spectator so far, start shooting cards now, and see how you can improve.  And when the next match comes up, send your cards in.

That's what I plan to do.

Student

[rmtaylor]

Very impressive. Congrats to all of you. I hope to be able to participate in the next one. Only problem now I may have to get me one of those 17's..............Thanks to Jeff:)

Richard

[Wlscott]

Take a look back up top.  I added some info to the original post.

[mag41vance]

Wlscott,
  You're the man! Great job on the PM.
                RV
 PS; If i'm holding My NEF while shooting my bow, would that work?
 :wink:

[scruffy]

RV, could you attach the bow to the barrel of your nef and turn it into a cross bow?  :wink:

later,
scruffy

[mitchell]

wes i told to loose jeff's card  :cry:   now look what you did.

hey what happen to the shotgun classs? i can't believe i was the only one to shoot in it . fellas its not about getting the best group or wining the match , its about making wes do a lot of work  :-D . so next time if you got a NEForH&R shoot it ! it doesn't have to be a good group you just have to have them all on the card.

[Wlscott]

I think for the next one I want to have a "bench" class and a "hunter" class.  Shoot from the bench, or from hunting positions.  Sticks, bipod, etc, etc.

What do you guys think?

[Fred M]

Wiscot.
There should be no restrictions on how you shoot the rifle if you shooting for groups but a time limit of 10 min for 5 shots and a 100 yard distance should apply. Bench rest is the only way to get tight groups.

But---- the contest should be Hunter and Varminter meaning that only rifles of 243 and bigger qualify for the Hunter class.  while the varminter can shoot any caliber. This is the way the regular Benchrest game is set up. Also BR Hunter class cartridges must have a case volume equal to the 30-30 Win.

But in the Handi competition this would disallow the  357 and the 44 Mag and you would not want that. The above would be very fair and meaningfull, because you want to know the potential accuracy of the rifle and load.  Fred M.

[scruffy]

I think for the next one I want to have a "bench" class and a "hunter" class.  Shoot from the bench, or from hunting positions.  Sticks, bipod, etc, etc.

What do you guys think?

Count me in, hunting positions are how I shoot and practice, 22lr, 22mag, 223, 270, etc etc.  Should get a lot more participation, there are alot more handi's set up for "hunting" than specifically for "benchrest".

later,
scruffy

[Mac11700]

Great job on the addittional data Wes...the hunter and varminter class would be kinda neat...different positions and all...sounds like fun...if I can ever get all these honey dooo jobs done...it will be time to practice practice,practice...



Mac