Author Topic: Custom 257 Roberts. (Read 6071 times)

Fred M · « **on:** December 04, 2004, 10:44:34 AM »

I have decided to build a custom 257 Roberts Handi.
Here is how I am going to do it.

!. I buy a new ultra 223 with a 24" bull barrel.

2. The barrel will be milled to an octagon style, since it is too heavy for a tractable walking varminter and deer rifle, but a 24" barrel is a good length for a single shot break open rifle.

3 After the machining the barrel it will be rebored to a 25cal with a 1-10' twist and chambered for the 257R after that the barrel will be stress relieved and blued. During the barrel work the action and trigger will be tuned.

I had thought to rechamber it for the 25 Hunter but this cartridge is a very high intensity one with a tight neck and operates on zero head space. This of course is not suitable for the Handi action, Making the 25 Hunter cases is also very time consuming and they would not last very long in a Handi.

The Roberts cases are readily available and provide as good a case life as any other cartridge of this type. The caliber is also a very versatile one specially for a 1/4" bore fan.

The project will make a fine custom deer and varmint rifle with some of the stock whittled down to a lesser weight. With the laminated wood the rifle should be quite attractive. Besides building this rifle will not break the bank. I think I have talked myself into that one it will be ready next summer. and there is a good chance it will shoot well.

Like the man said, only accurate rifles are interesting.

I have to discuss all this with the barrel maker who lives not far from here. So all the work is done locally and no factory back and forth shipping permits and paper work to keep the bureaucrats alive.

I dreamed all this up during the night in bett. A guy supposed to do better things in bett than dream about guns.

Airsporter · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2004, 11:17:18 AM »

How much for the rebore? That usually does break the bank!

like2shoot · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2004, 12:12:17 PM »

I like the plan you have, Fred. Any idea of the cost of the machining of the exterior of the barrel? Reboring seems to run around $200.00-250.00. Keep us informed !

Fred M · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2004, 12:46:07 PM »

Ok you guys, don't forget I am paying in Canadian $$$ not US bucks. But I will let you know how much.

Hildy · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2004, 02:11:58 PM »

Wow Fred!!! That sounds awesome!

Keep us going with any updates you have on this interesting project and good luck to you :-)

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2004, 05:01:56 PM »

ok you guys are killen me....why not buy a 15/16 oct. barrel...make a blank lug from a machine shop /..cheaper if you buy a dozen...then put the lug on barrel and save some seriuos coins???most of the ones i had built cost a little over 150 bucks..... done that includes teflon coating the barrel....jb....

Donaldo · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2004, 05:12:14 PM »

Fred, Fred, Fred,
Haven't you learned your lesson yet with the 1/4 bore handi's. :-D :-D Seriously, the 257 Roberts is a fine cartridge, 257 Improved even better. But your proposal on the barrel re-configuration astounds me. That sounds like a bunchabucks, even Canadian ones. I think the overall quality of the Handi barrel is questionable at best. If I was going to spend that kind of money I think I would start with a quality barrel first. If I remember, a lot of the manufacturers make octogan shaped barrels. Do the welded on lug deal and be done with it. Or how about the half round, half octogan, I think that looks pretty cool.

Fred M · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2004, 07:36:52 PM »

Donaldo.
Don't bite off more than you can chew. The barrel steel per se is quite good even so it is the cheapest part of a rifle. Most of the rifle barrel steel is made by one company. The quality of boring, reaming, rifling , contouring and stress relieving is another story and that is where the cost comes in.

I inspected the 25-06 barrel with my Hawkeye bore scope, that is every inch of it. The scope is fiber optics 22x with a battery powered light. I have not found a single inclusion in that barrel and it was a whole lot smoother than a lot of other barrels that I looked at over time. It took very little to break it in, and it cleans real easy. That itself ought to tell you something.

I am not about to name the worst ones but H&R is not one of them. If they H&R ever get their act together and make a proper sized bore and chamber, they will be as good as any factory barrel. I could tell when I made the notches on the end of the barrel. This steel is pretty good it is chrome moly a good standard barrel steel.

I can test the steel quite easy for Rockwell hardness if I felt it needed it.

No I don't want a 257imp. The standard 257R will practically duplicate the 25 Hunter but with less pressure. The 25Hunter is one heck of a cartridge but it likes to operate at high pressure.

I got an estimate of $185 Can for the rebore and chamber. Octagon?

I think it will make one nice little rifle and different from others. Something to talk about and to look at. Even a cheap Remington rifle costs $800 in Canada. Ultra $362+300for the work and rebore $662 total. Ruger#1 new in 257R $1100.

Ron Smith the man that rebores barrels and makes them too is good perhaps the best in Canada. He can tell whether the steel is good or not.
He makes record winning BP barrels cut rifling only. Loves single shot actions like the Miller.

I will install two single scope bocks on the barrel like I did on the Ruger #1 and completly re-do the stock. The barrel work will take three month because of back log. You ask now you know .

The 25-06 toke 6 month to get so here we looking at 9 month already. It will be just done for next hunting season. That is not funny.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2004, 09:37:54 PM »

Fred:

Is the same smith going to make the barrel an octagon and is that $185 inclusive of this as well? If it is even for a 9 month wait that would be a good price...

Is your 257R similar to the 25 Ackley Krag Short???...

Mac

safetysheriff · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2004, 12:27:38 AM »

Fred'

If I wasn't such a .270 fan I'd probably indulge my recent appetite for the .257 Roberts myself --- in Ruger's factory rifle. That's a great cartridge, especially when loaded to +P levels of performance. They've got loads in the Accurate Powder manual #1 that are interesting to me.

If I was doing it in a Handi', however, I'd go with the .25-06 and chop it to 24" and get the ejector/housing re-positioned on the rifle.....without needing a re-bore. I'd cut the chamber then myself with a Clymer tool and then re-crown the barrel with a tool from Brownell's to save some more money. It would be cheaper I'd think....

Yeah, I know what you mean. Great cartridge.

Good luck with your endeavor,

SS'

riddleofsteel · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2004, 02:57:26 AM »

Sounds like a interesting diversion. A nice project to while away the long Canadian winter.
You know I have owned rifles in .257 Roberts, .257 Roberts Ackley Improved and in 25-06. I really do not see the alure of spending big bucks on a .257 Roberts custom when perfectly good 25-06's are out there needing a home. Just kidding. Seriously though, the .257 Roberts is a pretty well balanced cartridge in terms of powder capacity to bore diameter. In custom barrels it can be quite accurate. I have seen a few factory barrels in .257 Roberts that were real dogs.
It has been years since I had a .257 Roberts. I guess since I own several perfectly good 25-06's that can duplicate a .257 Roberts with careful powder selection it will be a long time, if ever, before I get another.
Of course tinkering is half the fun so enjoy.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2004, 03:52:27 AM »

.257 Roberts, another nice classic caliber to go along with the 7x57, 45-70, 30-06, and another I like although not as old, the .35 Whelen. With these barrels for my Handi there is nothing I could not hunt. I for one think the .257 is a winner and a keeper. Go to it Fred M!!! And if you don't like the outcome and want to part with it (cheaply of course :-D ) let me know, I have been known to cross that imaginary line between us before, sometimes on purpose in a vehicle and sometimes by accident while trout fishing far north of my camp, either on foot on "Little Southwest Stream" or by Kayak on an unnamed little stream off a Lake I cannot remember the name of. I was there fishing for a couple of days with my son and a Maine Warden who I am friendly with, great place and a great time. My friend paddled out to bring in another friend of his (the local DA) and left my son and I alone for a day or so, we poked around and found a small stream dumping out into the lake so we followed it, followed it a couple of miles. When we got back to camp checked the maps of the area and found we had ventured into Canada without knowing it!!!....<><.... :grin:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2004, 05:26:09 AM »

OOOPs :oops: ...my mistake...I thought you had come up with a good rimmed 257 case...but I see you meant the regular 257 Roberts...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2004, 06:29:39 AM »

The $175 is for the rebore only. The octagon shaping is extra about $150.
The 257 Robert will get 3200 ft with a 100gr bullet. That will do a nice job on a deer out to 350 yrds and coyotes out to 500 with the 75gr V-max.

I have thought of the 25-06 since I got all the tooling, but I already have a Ruger#1 in that caliber and a tack driver at that. The only other caliber that I don't have or ever had is a 6.5-06 of sorts, now that also would turn my crank. But either has more power than what I am looking for.

So don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up :-D

Sure you can load them down but the best accuracy comes with a full case of powder with a slight compression and the 257 Roberts is a good candidate for that

Really I am more interested in the octagon barrel than the caliber. I think they just look so great on a single shot.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2004, 08:08:53 AM »

Fred:

How large will the flats be out of a bull barrel???

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2004, 09:18:02 AM »

Mac.
If I knew what the size of that bull barrel is at the muzzle I could calculate it. It may have to be turned down some before millig the flats?

The formula is Radus x .7654 = the flat. Aerea is Radius squared x 2.8284
Steel weighs about .284 lbs per cub.inch, or 1988 grains, or 4.54oz

handirifle · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2004, 10:01:15 AM »

Fred,
That sounds like a wonderful custom job. I have no experience of the 257 but many love it. That would make a Handi even YOU would be proud of. :grin:

Donaldo · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2004, 01:54:15 PM »

FredM,
I guess I forgot you said you were going to rebore. :oops: Yep, sounds like a fun project to me. I have always liked the 257 Roberts. First centerfire I ever built up was a 6.5x257Improved. On a Jap action. Clumsey thing but strong as a bull. Actually shot pretty good considering I used the old Jap barrel. Still have the old thing somewhere. That was back when I could not afford to buy brass, had to make my cases from surplus '06 brass. And.....of all people, I am not one to talk about starting a.............different kind of project.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2004, 06:40:03 PM »

Sorry Fred...I don't have one of those bull barrels anymore...if I can catch my neighbor who I sold my restocked Survivor to...maybe he'll let me measure it for you...

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2004, 08:27:17 PM »

Fred
It's late now but tomorrow I'll measure my 223 UV at the muzzle for ya.

Fred M · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2004, 10:06:45 AM »

Handirifle

Quote

That would make a Handi even YOU would be proud of.

I like the Handi rifle and my new one will get rid of 99% of bad news, which is the barrel bore. My Handi bashing was never directed against the rifle itself but the poor barrel, chamber and lock up. This 257 Roberts will make a dandy Handi for sure.

Before this rilfe goes to the barrel maker it will receive a full detailed slugging and inspection of the bore including a chamber cast.

I found a brand new Ultra 223 new in a store. Reserved my purchase for a week, because I have to take the barrel of the 25-06 and take it to the barrel maker so he can check if the underlug is compatable with his boring and rifling machine. Making special jigs and tooling to do just one barrel would make the job too costly.

One thing I found out on this new rifle was the lockup was really tight and the trigger really smooth and quite light, I guess about 2.5lbs? Don't think it needs any work? A really fine factory trigger. Nice touch. You see I do have good things to say about the Handi when I see them. ha.

It looks like H&R is smartening up and the complaints did not all fall on deaf ears. I should send them my web page URL? Maybe someone already did?

cgturner7 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2004, 09:09:21 AM »

A .257 Roberts is exactly what I've been wanting. Glad to see there are others that appreciate this caliber. Your project sounds very interesting. I've been kicking around the idea of a David White barrel stub project in .257. I want mine with a thumbhole stock. Let us know the progress.

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** December 07, 2004, 04:32:31 PM »

cgturner7.
There are several good 25 cal cartridges all better balanced than the 25-06 or the 257 Wby but these two spit out the bullets if you can stand the noise and feed them shovels full of powder burning out the barrels in a hurry.

The better 25's are the 250 Sav. and the AI version of it. The 25 Souper yes that is how it is spelled and is a 25-308, the other one is a 257 DGR made from a 260 Rem with a longer neck and 30 deg shoulder, a very good one made by Duane Spooner in Tappen ND.

My 25 Hunter is an HBR cartridge, designed by Dan Hackett, is made from a 22-250 or 250 Sav or 243. Then we have the 257 Roberts and two verions of imprrovements the 28 deg RCBS and the 40 deg AI. There are a lot more but these are the best ones, The 25 WSSM has not clicked as yet and as usual very over rated. It makes up velocity by very high pressure.
One thing for sure it is new and impmproved like Tide.

So here I go with the oldy 257 Roberts, for the Handi I think it is the best compromise and also for an old timer. The spec of my new Roberts barrel will be a three or four groove with a 1-11" twist.

cgturner7 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 08, 2004, 07:52:57 AM »

Wow, thanks for the history lesson on 25 cals. I didn't know there were so many to choose from. I think a .257 Roberts in a Handi sounds like the perfect combination. My dilema is whether to have a custom made in .257 Roberts or 6.5x55. And since I don't handload the problem is knowing which one will allow more access to ammo. Either way I go, it will sport a walnut or fiddleback maple thumbhole stock, Leupold 4x scope, and possibly a muzzle brake.

handirifle · « **Reply #24 on:** December 08, 2004, 06:04:06 PM »

Ha fred, just couldn't resist rattlin your cage :grin:

Was looking at the remington web site and factory ballistics are sorry. I see why so many handload them. It's like the 45-70 or my latest, the 375 Win. Doesn't even tap into the possibilities.

What bullet weights are available for the 25? And the obvious, why not a 7-08 or similar? Just for something different?

Sounds like your 223 UV is like mine. All I did was polish the bore and chamber and this baby shoots!

Fred M · « **Reply #25 on:** December 08, 2004, 08:33:25 PM »

Handirifle.
No you are not rattling my cage. I have a whole bunch of different calibers. a 7mm-08 Ai, is one of them. Ever since I got that 25 Hunter I have been wondering why I never had such a a sweet shooting caliber, deadly accurate with good barrels and very easy to tune with frugal powder consumption and low recoil.

I am not claiming it to be a rifle for everybody, because I feel these small calibers take more skill to hunt with and demand perfect shot placement.. Much like a 243 but with a lot better balanced expansion ratio.

The 25 bore has quite a reputation, and I don't really know why it has fallen by the way side. If Remington would have brought out a 25-08 instead of a 243 the picture I am sure would be a lot different. The 25Hunter is much like a 250 Sav Imp, and both rifles are super accurate.
Then we have the 257Wby and 25-06 deadly performers with selective bullets.

I guess it is obvious by now that I am very fond of the 25 bore. The 257 Roberts is not my favorite case but it is so well suited to the Handi and that is why I choose it. Besides it is a well liked standard caliber and easy to sell. The 25-06 would been another option but I already have one.
Besides the 25-06 Ultra I had did not like to be stepped up above the 257 Roberts.

There are quite a few different bullets for the 25 made by most all bullet makers. from 60gr to 120gr, My favorites are the 75 gr V-max, the 100gr Hornady Interlock, 100gr Nosler Partition, and the TSX Barnes for hunting, and for HBR I have a big supply of 85gr Fowler match bullets. Fowler also makes a 110gr bullet for long range target shooting.

Then you have the Lost River 120gr and a 115gr Bearclaw for Moose and Elk. There is no shortage of .257" bullets.

Fred M · « **Reply #26 on:** December 17, 2004, 09:51:39 AM »

Run into a bit of good luck. A friend who owns a big machine shop made the milling machine available to me during off shop hours. So I be machining the octagon barrel myself.

The reboring requires the removal of the forearm barrel stud which is welded to the barrel. Rewelding the new one is not recommended by the barrel maker. A new stud will be made and fastened to the barrel with two
8x32 screws and J-B Weld. I'll be making the new stud at the same time, all around a pretty good deal.

The barrel will be 24" long with 20 1/2" octagon. 0.590 across the flats at the muzzle and 0. 809 at 20". Will loose 1.16 lbs weight. This is not really a light barrel but should not be too bad for weight. Once I can see what the shape looks like I may want to trim it down a bit more?

The butt stock too will get a major face lift, with trimmer more pleasing lines and a thinner pad.

I guess every body knows I bought a new 223 Ultr for this conversion.
Did I waste my money, I hope not.

If some body wants to see the calculations I can post them. In some spare time I maybe set up an Excel program where you can play around with different diameters, bores, barrel tapers and weights. Should have done that to start with. Later alligator.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 17, 2004, 10:03:00 AM »

Fred:
Sounds like your winter project is shaping up nicely...and when you get that excel spread sheet down...let me know...I wouldn't mind playing around with it a-bit...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #28 on:** December 17, 2004, 11:23:08 AM »

Mac.
The octagon part will be done next week. The rebore and rifling in about 2month. So maybe April I get it all done?

The Excel program is a bit complicated. Setting up all these long winded equations. Its not hard but it takes a lot of time to make it work. Specially when you are not good at it. If I twist my son's arm he do it in a few minutes.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 17, 2004, 11:36:34 AM »

Fred.....

Don't twist it too hard...he won't be able to type

I definatly want all the paticulars and some pics of your project...this has been on my list for a very long time...

Since your going to have the barrel rebored...and I'm sure the rifling will be done much nicer...why not a little higher velocity 25 cal...and a rimmed case???...Just curious is all...

Mac