Author Topic: .45 colt 410 Update..Using BIG brass to shoot with... (Read 2987 times)

HutchHandiMan · « **on:** January 10, 2005, 08:03:38 AM »

OK everyone, some of you may know that I have a .45 colt/410 barrel..

These little barrels are rifled and light.

So I got to thinking one day that I would like to get some 45/70 level of action out of this little barrel, but as you should know, the 45 colt is a .452 dia..and the 45/70 is a .458 dia.

So after doing some research, I found that 410 shooters where fireforming .444 Marlin brass for use as shotshells. So I got me some .444 brass and fireformed it this past Sunday. And now have working brass that can be loaded with .452 dia 240 JHP.

NOW UNDERSTAND THIS. IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND CAN NOT PRACTICE SAFE RELOADING....DO NOT TRY THIS...

Before I had to leave the range. I had 3 working rounds, that all fired and hit a 2 foot target at 1oo yards.

Please give me some time to do a full write up on this as well as some group photos...

And yes it does still shoot 410 slugers, 45 colts, 454 casull and now the BIG BOY. .45 colt SUPER Mag, or maybe I should call it the .45 SUPER Long Colt.....hehehehe

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2005, 09:13:09 AM »

Is the entire bore rifled or is it like a rifled choke tube? I was under the impression that it was a choke tube affair.

Ian

HutchHandiMan · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2005, 09:26:19 AM »

Yes the full bore is rifled...and yes there is also a removable choke tube...I am shooting the fifle without the tube in it as the end would blow up if I left it on.

Robert · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:37:09 AM »

I was working on them last year in a Contender. In the beginning the Mongo was not designed for more power, but to reduce the long jump that the bullet needs to make in firearms chambered for 45/410 to improve accuracy. I tried a few 45-70 starting loads and they worked fine in the Contender with no signs of pressure.
Everyone is going to criticize these experiments..some will claim that you are crazy putting a .452 slug down a .41 bore...but that is just ignorance. The Contender is barreled for 45 Colt jacket slugs and will handle pressures the same as a Blackhawk. I have no doubt that the NEF will handle even more pressure.
Another interesting experiment is to use 45 Colt brass, and resize 500 gr bullets used for the 45-70. Load the resized bullets to the same over-all-length as the original 444 with light loads... 4-6 grs of Red Dot..a real kick in the pants.
The easiest way I found to fireform the 444's is to fire them with cheap lead .44 dum-dums and a modest load.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:44:12 AM »

changed my mind :grin:

HutchHandiMan · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2005, 11:37:39 AM »

ya it was fun playing around with the dif loads it takes to fire form...

We got it worked out to 57.5 gr of IMR 4895..a real slow and low pressrue powder..but it can still kick...at 56 gr of IMR 4895 using a 240 gr and 444 brass the book has it only at 28,000 cup, so it is well in the safe range...

have fun

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2005, 01:56:05 PM »

yes iv done that too i had to INLARGE the case to keep from llooosssinnnggg pressure when shoting the 45 colts out of my rifled 45 barrel ..but it didnt have a choke to screw at the end for shotshells.....i guess i chickened out on a fast load and got fusterated and sold itabout a month after making it .......i wish you the best on it :grin: i would like to know the outcome of it so please keep ,ME. us posted???JB

shaner · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2005, 04:42:33 PM »

have anyone tried to use the 45 colt bullets in the 454 diameter , they make them also for older model colts? wonder how it would change things for ya?

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:52:31 PM »

What's the barrel slug to?

Ian

HutchHandiMan · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2005, 04:45:47 AM »

I am not too sure of what you are asking..but this barrel has a screw in type choke tube for using shot with...but I have it taken out, to shoot slugs or in my case bullets

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2005, 11:02:37 AM »

By slugging, I mean the process of driving a soft greased lead slug down the barrel to find out exactly what bore diameter you are dealing with.

Ian

Diamond Fred · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2005, 03:31:13 PM »

HutchHandiMan
Where did you get a 45LC barrel? I am looking for one for my rifle. They are not listed as available from H&R.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2005, 03:34:48 PM »

:-D , Welcome aboard Diamond Fred, the barrel being talked about is the .410/45 combo barrel....<><.... :grin:

mitchell · « **Reply #13 on:** November 26, 2005, 01:33:02 PM »

BTT

anybody ever went any farther on this (using 444 marlin brass in place of a 410 shotshell)??

lots of weels are turning.

single shot shooter · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2005, 03:05:10 PM »

not to get off topic here but I got a couple questions.

first, how does it pattern with .410 shotshells?

second, how is accuracy with standard 410 slugs?

third how are you gonna reload the "super long colt"?, it seems .444 dies would not work with the fireformed case because it is larger now. and 45-70 uses a larger diameter bullet.

fourth, tell us more about your 45 super long colt! :grin:

I'm not entirely interestedin NEF's I was thinking of using this load in a rossi 45/410 and was wondering how the 45/410's shot 410 slugs and how the rifling messed shot up.
any info on 45/410's will be appriciated.

take care
SSS

Fred M · « **Reply #15 on:** November 26, 2005, 03:15:08 PM »

Ian.
That combo has to be set up to shoot 45 Colt bullets and it has a rifled bore to take the Colt bullets(.452). A 410 has a 0.410 bore. All the new 410 shot shells using a plastic wad with two slids and a bottom solid portion with a skirt. These skirt will easy expand 40 thou and seal pretty good even in the grooves. This is a good workable system and favours the bullet.

410 skeet guns have been back bored to get better patterns. I shot a lot of 410 Skeet. The back bored (bigger than 410) barrel did not shoot all that much better, but hard nickel plated shot proofed best in standard bores.

A more versatile combo would be a 45-70. Punch out your own wads and load them with a shot wrapper and 1/2 oz of #8 shot. The .458 case would make a shorter shot column? I think somebody makes wads for the 45.

Now you use easy to make home made shot shells in a standard handy with bullets that take big game and no expensive smithing.

mitchell · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2005, 04:58:19 PM »

my thinking was more of the slug idea. in ohio you can only hunt deer with a shotgun shooting slugs. but if the 410 with 444 marlin brass could shoot at 444 (or even close ) velocity it would be a worth while gun.

but how can it be done safely??

and how would you resize the brass?? i'm guessing the 444 marlin and 410 shotgun are resized to different specs??

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** November 26, 2005, 05:23:35 PM »

Mitchell.
I am not a lawyer or the game warden. But when you seat a slug into a brass case you have in effect a metallic cartridge. You would have the devil of a time to convince the judge otherwise, me thinks?

?

A 410 shotgun slug is not very good for game over 20 yards nor is the 410 9/16oz shot charge.

Myself I would go for at least a 20 gauge slug, 12 is better. I have seen some impressive slug guns with scopes on the range. Yes it means another barrel for the Handi.

Consider the fine for breaking the law compared to the price of a slug barrel.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #18 on:** November 26, 2005, 06:51:57 PM »

All brass .410 cases with the .410 headstamp are available, expensive, but available. Saiga even makes .410 slug loads with an all metallic case, but they are useless in the Handi because the slugs are far undersized. All metallic shells are as old as breechloading shotguns.

Dies are not a problem, just necksize with .45 Colt or .45 ACP dies. I used a set of .44 Mag dies when I was using .444 Marlin cases as .410s. Used .45 dies when I was cutting down .30-06 to make cylinder length cases for one of the early Colt 1917s.

Fred M · « **Reply #19 on:** November 27, 2005, 06:11:19 AM »

Leftoverdj

I am aware of brass shot gun cases. But that was not the subject 444 Marlin brass was. Which is a rifle case not to be confused with 410 shot gun brass.

mitchell · « **Reply #20 on:** November 27, 2005, 08:19:48 AM »

well but 410 shotgun brass would make it a 410 (ok with uncle sam)

would it be safe and how would i go about trying to get 444 (or slower if i must) velocity?

Kmrere42 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 27, 2005, 02:55:06 PM »

Hi,

There is a way to use 444 marlin brass. The trick is to make a thin brass sleeve to go around the base of the cartrige and then fireform it into place. Get a copy of the manual of cartridge conversion as it has detailed instructions how to do the procedure.

Has any one tried to use 44 mag bullets in a standard .410 shot-cup?? The diameters should add properly and be safe.

Paul

lostchild · « **Reply #22 on:** November 27, 2005, 04:53:37 PM »

I have a nef in .45/410, I just used some 445sm brass that I had ( traded the 445 for an encore kept the brass). To load for the .45/410 I just bell the brass till I can just start a .452 bullet then use 445sm data and seat the bullet as long as possible, after fire forming I use .45 colt dies (lee carbide) to neck size bell and seat the bullet ( takes some adjusting). This might work with the 444 too. Hope this helps.........lost

knight0334 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 28, 2005, 04:25:17 AM »

HutchHandiMan,

I think the 444 fireformed to .452cal is called a "450 Mongo". ...so, you're probably out of luck naming it.

Fred M · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2005, 05:00:06 AM »

450 Mongo that must be these tough Mongolian pony type horses?Tough as nails.

fuzzy · « **Reply #25 on:** November 28, 2005, 09:44:38 AM »

Hutch are you shooting loaded down 454`s or factory stuff, how did they group and what fram are you useing sb1 or sb2 ? Thanks Rich

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #26 on:** November 28, 2005, 02:38:59 PM »

Quote from: Fred M

Leftoverdj

I am aware of brass shot gun cases. But that was not the subject 444 Marlin brass was. Which is a rifle case not to be confused with 410 shot gun brass.

Fred, if you can do it with a .444 Marlin case. you can do it with the slightly longer brass .410 case if you are looking for a rulebeater. You could also efface the headstamp on .444 Marlin brass and let them try to prove you were not shooting a slug load.

Far as I am concerned, if the form 4473 says it is a shotgun, it's a shotgun.

Theshootist78 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2006, 07:01:37 AM »

what about a 460s&w? to much preasure?

DPRinks · « **Reply #28 on:** February 17, 2006, 03:38:29 PM »

Midway has .410 brass shells, $12.99 per 25.

Cookiemann · « **Reply #29 on:** February 17, 2006, 08:56:39 PM »

While all of this info is intriqueing, I still don't really know the answer to what I would like to know.

Is it possible to use the 45/410 barrel and a 'Modified' form of a 410 shell to make it a 100 yard slug shooter?

Some of the areas where I hunt are loaded with 'yotes and they need to be thinned out. You can't use a rifle in these areas. I know a 100 yard shot is fairly close for coyotes...they would have to be really called in to get a shot that close.

Would I just be better off with a 12 or 20 Ultra and a good scope?