Author Topic: 3 scopes in review...Mueller added.  (Read 2470 times)

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Offline JCM

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« on: January 11, 2005, 07:19:29 AM »
I don't know if this will be of interest to anyone or not, but maybe it will.  I spent some time this year with a few scopes and thought I'd give my input on them.  I compare them to each other on a few things, but it really isn't fair since in several aspects it's apples to oranges....but maybe it will be helpful.

The 3 scopes are Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x20, Nikon Monarch 4x40, Nikon Monarch Gold 1.5-6x42.

When I first decided to compare them the first thing I did was look through them on a clear day.  I got the Gold first, then the 4x40, then the Leupold.  On a clear day I was very impressed with the 2 Nikons.  They are so sharp and so clear.  I guess it has to do with some of the technologies that Nikon has used for cameras.  No doubt they were very sharp and clear.  I was a little disappointed when I compared them to the VXIII.  The color was not as sharp in it, just a little duller, still sharp, but not like the Nikons.  No noticable difference between the Nikons.

The next thing I did was try the same thing at dusk.  I took the 3 of them to my back yard, set up a table, and picked out a broken branch on an old oak tree about 90-100 yards away.  This was looking across a field, at the tree on the edge of a woodlined.  The background was thick woods.  I was facing east, so the sun setting in the west wasn't in the picture.  I did this from sunset to dark.

They were all excellent.  I did this set at only the 4 power since I could do it common to all of them.  Keep in mind that this is a 10.5 exit pupil with the Gold, 10 mm exit pupil with the Monarch, and only a 5 mm exit pupil with the VXIII.  I was really a little worried that the VX would be at a big disadvantage.  It wasn't.  I'm assuming that the duller look it had in bright sunlight is due to the coatings Leupold uses.  I could make out the broken branch with the Gold for slightly longer than I could with the Monarch or the Leupold.  Perhaps just a little longer with the 4x than the Leupold, but not enough to really notice.  At any rate, all three of them would have allowed me to watch a deer for far longer then I could have found it in the cross hairs.  They all seemed great here.  Crosshairs were the limiting factor.

Size and weight:
Leupold has this one hands down.  It's the reason I got it.  It is very compact and lightweight.  The Gold is a 30mm tube and was heavy.  It felt like you could use it to drive nails, but was very well balanced.  The 4x was solid and mid weight.

FOV:
Leupold has a slight advantage over the Gold but not enough to notice.  The 4x was out of this one with the fixed power.

Eye relief:
The Gold was awesome here.  So much so that I had to mount it far forward.  The same with the Leupold but it varied.  The Gold seemed to be almost the same across the power range.  The 3.5 for the 4x is plenty for me and I really prefer the 3.5 but that is a personal opinion.  When shooting I never had a problems with any of them and recoil.

I didn't do any repeatablity tests.  I can say that when I mounted and sighted them in, they moved exactly as I expected with the clicks.  I really like the Gold in that once the zero is set, it can be reset to align to zero.  Very nice.  The Gold and 4x were in Warne quick detach rings, the Leupold in Leupold quick detach rings.

Here's the specs:
Leupold:  9.7 oz., 9.4 inches, Eye relief 4.4-3.6, FOV 65.7-23.7
Gold:  17.3 oz., 11.4 inches, Eye relief 4.1-4, FOV 64.7-17.3
Monarch:  11.6 oz., 11.6 inches, Eye relief 3.5, FOV 26.9

I recommend all of these scopes without reservation.  I liked them all.  I just put the VXIII and the Monarch 4x in the classifieds because the barrels are going and I didn't use them enough.  I'm keeping the Gold because it's the only one I hunted with enough to really justify.  I'm going to try to pick up a couple of different scopes each year and try them, that's probably what I'll use if I'm able to sell the VXIII and 4x.  If I can't sell them I'm not to worried about it because I like them so much.  I've got a Mueller 2-7 that I just recieved that I'm looking forward to trying out.

If you've got any questions, thoughts, or suggestions, please post them here because I'd like to hear them.  Thanks for reading my ramblings,

JCM

Offline SeaBass

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2005, 03:16:21 PM »
Have you had a chance to test the Mueller yet?

Offline Zachary

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 04:29:25 AM »
JCM,

I have been kinda curious about the new VX-III line.  I have heard that light transmission has increased to 98%, which is high.  But I was surprised to hear you say that it was not as sharp (on a bright day) as the Nikons (which "only" have 95% light transmission).

I guess this proves, or at least shows from your own personal evaluation, that light transmission and resolution are two different.  I would have thought that if a scope has high light transmission, then it's resolution - by default - would be similar.  It's also kinda interesting how things changed when you were looking at lower light conditions, where the VX-III was better.

Granted, as you stated, this was not a true apples-to-apples comparison, but your evaluation is still very helpful and appreciated.

Zachary

Offline JCM

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 05:36:04 AM »
SeaBass,

I haven't done it yet.  I'm going to try to within the next few days and I'll post it on this thread.  I think the Mueller is what I'm going to chase the yotes with this year, so I've got to get it sighted in.

Zachary,

I don't know exactly how to word the difference between the Leupold and the Nikon.  The Nikon's just appear more "vivid" and true life color.  Not nessecarly brighter or better at gathering light.  It's something that would make a difference in bird watching but not hunting.  I'm pretty sure it has to do with the difference in lens coating that Nikon and Leupold uses.  I'm sure Nikon carries that over from their camera lense technology.  I was very impressed that the Leupold was that bright with a 20mm obj.  I think the 4x Nikon was maybe a hair brighter, but that was with a 40mm obj.  I'd like to try out one of the 2.5x8 VXIII's.  I wish they made it in a illuminated dot (only a dot, not a recticle) version.

I'll try to do the same comparison with the Nikon 4x40, Nikon Gold 1.5-6x42, and Mueller 2-7x32 within the next few days.

Take care,
JCM

Offline JCM

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Mueller added
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2005, 02:45:59 AM »
Here’s the same comparison with a Mueller 2-7x32 Multishot, the Nikon Monarch 4x40, and Nikon Monarch Gold 1.5-6x42.  The setup was the same as before.  All testing was done set at 4x.  

Some things to keep in mind:
Again, this is apples to oranges.  There is also a major price difference involved that has to be considered.  Please keep this in mind.

Daylight:
As before the 2 Nikons were extremely sharp, clear, and vivid.  The Mueller was very clear, no complaints at all, but it wasn’t as color sharp as the Nikons.  For daylight hunting I don’t think there would be enough difference to worry about.  The reticule for the Mueller is different than most.  It is a circle illuminated dot….basically it appears to be a heavy duplex, meeting in a circle where a normal reticule would slim down.  Within the circle is a fine reticule that ends in a dot.  The dot is black when the illumination is off, and glows red when illumination is turned on.  The illumination can be set to 11 different settings to match the shooter’s need.  The higher settings seemed to be the best in bright light.

Dusk:
This was what I was really interested in.  I wanted to try the Mueller with illumination and without.  With all scopes at 4x the 4x40 had a 10mm exit pupil, the 1.5-6x42 had a 10.5mm exit pupil, and the 2-7x32 had a 8mm exit pupil.  Both Nikon’s were noticeably brighter.  There seemed to be quite a bit of difference in how bright the woods looked and how easily I could pick out limbs and openings.  This was done from about 30 minutes before dark to after dark and the darker it got the more the difference became apparent.  I also switched back and forth on the Mueller to use the illumination.  The illumination definitely is a plus.  With the Nikons I could see long enough that a target could be made out after the reticule could not be seen.  Although the Mueller optics weren’t as bright in the low light and the target was harder to make out, the exact point of impact was apparent with the illuminated dot.  It seemed to me that the lower settings of 2, 3, and 4 were the best for the low light illumination.  If it was cranked up to 9, 10, or 11 the red glow really seemed to adversely affect the light gathering of the scope.

Size and weight:
Well the Nikon’s didn’t change from before.  The 1.5-6x42 is still a brick (but well balanced), and the 4x40 is trim and mid-weight.  I was surprised at the weight and size of the Mueller.  It is fairly long and heavy (specs below).  What really stood out on the Mueller is the eyepiece.  It is very large to maintain the illumination and has a large dial on top for the illumination adjustment.  Where the 1.5-6x42 Monarch is a 30mm tube and is very heavy, it was well balanced.  I think the Mueller seemed heavier than it is because of the weight distribution.  The Mueller is fairly small with the 1-inch tube, the 32mm objective, but the eyepiece really stands out and makes it seem almost unbalanced.  This is going on an Encore.  I’m using medium rings.  I’m either going to have to get a hammer extension, or get higher rings so that I can cock the hammer.  I really don’t want to get higher rings as there is plenty of clearance for the objective…I’d prefer not to have to use high rings on a scope with a 32 mm objective.  This is the trade off for illumination.  On a minor note, the elevation and windage adjustment dials extend much higher than the 4x40 Nikon, but the effect on compactness is null when the eyepiece is considered.

FOV:
The 1.5-6 has the edge on the low end.  They will be pretty close on the high end.  For the hunting I do the FOV with the Mueller was more than adequate but the 1.5-6 has the edge because of its .5 lower power (specs below).

Eye relief:
The Mueller eye relief was noticeably shorter when I would switch from scope to scope.  I’ve mounted the scope, but haven’t fired the rifle yet so I can’t say for sure how this will be.  At any rate, the eye relief is short.

Specs:
Mueller: 13.3 oz, 11.3 inches, Eye relief 3.25, FOV 47-18
Gold: 17.3 oz., 11.4 inches, Eye relief 4.1-4, FOV 64.7-17.3
Monarch: 11.6 oz., 11.6 inches, Eye relief 3.5, FOV 26.9

My thoughts:
The circle dot reticule is very innovative.  I didn’t use it for any range finding although I believe that it can be used for that.  I also didn’t use it on a shotgun for which I think it would be very nice.  I think (and hope to find out this fall) that it will be nice when lining up on a deer’s shoulder or heart and lung area.  The only down side to it is that it could possibly clutter the sight picture, especially in the heavy woods that I hunt where shots often have to be picked between limbs.  It did seem to make it a little tougher to pick out specific limbs in my dusk testing earlier.  The dot is a major plus.  I loved it.  A dot is perfect for low light use, where a lighted reticule would adversely affect the light gathering of the scope.  The 11 different settings for illumination are nice, but probably more than are needed.  I think 3 different settings would be sufficient, one at 3, one at 11, and one around 6-7.  Just my thoughts, it really doesn’t hurt to have extra.  

The fit and finish of the Mueller is not in line with high priced scopes, but it is important to remember, it isn’t a high priced scope.  It is a matte finish.  There is a Mueller logo on the side of the scope near the windage and elevation adjustments that has silver showing above it which seemed a little off center.  Below the windage elevation adjustments, under the scope, is a sticker covering a hole that says “NITROGEN GAS PORT”.  It was a little irksome to me to have a port covered with only a sticker.  It isn’t a 1-piece tube.

I haven’t sighted the scope in yet so I can’t comment on adjustments, repeatability, etc.  I can’t comment on how rugged the scope is going to be or how well it will hold up to rain and hard use.

The company is fairly new and I have read a lot of positive comments on them.  One positive comment I can certainly make for them is that I had a question on the tube and batteries.  I asked a very nice lady at the Optic Zone and she gave me a direct number for Rich who posts here.  He answered my questions and was very personable.  I’ve seen that he listens to input from people who use Mueller scopes and works on implementing those ideas.  I don’t have any doubt that Mueller would be a great company to deal with.

Reading back through this it seems like I’m down on the Mueller, but that’s not the case.  Some things come down to price.  For a company like Mueller, unless they want to lose money, they’ve got to work within a budget.  Within a budget they can only provide as much as the budge will allow.  Some things they can do and some things are going to have to be on a lower scale.  With this in mind, for the price of the scope, I don’t think there is anything on the market that can touch the Mueller.  In it’s price range I think it is head and shoulders above the competition.  For the price range I highly recommend it.  It’s got a transferable lifetime warranty and options that are innovative, well designed, and useful.  A $130 scope with these features and a lifetime warranty is……….well, there ain’t nothing else that can come close to it that I’m aware of.

Again, I welcome your feedback and thoughts.  Take care,

JCM

Offline Zachary

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Re: Mueller added
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 03:21:28 AM »
Quote from: JCM
I asked a very nice lady at the Optic Zone and she gave me a direct number for Rich who posts here.  
JCM


I bet that "very nice lady at the Optic Zone" was Jon's wife.  And she really is a very nice lady - very polite, helpful, courteous, and respectful.  Sometimes when Jon is not in I place my orders with his wife and, let me tell you, sometimes she's better than Jon. :)  

Believe me, low prices and great customer service has a lot to do with where I buy, but nowadays, I also look at from WHOM I buy, and Jon and his wife are truly wonderful people and wonderful parents of two.  I support them not only because they are sponsors of this site (because I used to buy from them EVEN BEFORE they were members here) but because the way they run their business - well, they just deserve my business. :grin:

Zachary

Offline JCM

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 04:43:50 AM »
I did call back and place my order with that very nice lady.  As I remember, she was getting her children ready and it was early in the morning.  When people are nice in the morning, when getting their children ready, they're usually nice all the time.

The way people treat me certainly affects if I want to give them my business or not.  When I ordered the Mueller I got a chance to speak to the lady at the Optic Zone which along with the price cemented that I would order the scope there, and I got to speak to Rich at Mueller, which cemented my desire to support Mueller scopes with a purchase.

People make a difference.  On any future scopes, I'll always check the Optic Zone first and give them every chance I can to have my business.  Besides, they support this site! :)

Take care,
JCM

Offline quickdtoo

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 06:23:19 AM »
Thanks JCM, great review of a great product and Company!
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Ramrod

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2005, 12:00:16 PM »
I also have to say thanks JCM, for the great review, and calling it as you saw it! the Nikon fs. leopold shows that raw numbers don't mean a whole lot, and there are other factors in choosing a scope besides whether the image would make a good photograph or not. Size, weight, eye relief, FOV, etc. have varying degrees of importance to different usages. Personally, I'll stick with Leupold. There is always that warranty thing too. :grin:
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline Mueller Optics

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2005, 08:54:02 AM »
Great, honest review JCM, that's what we like to see  :agree:


Just to clear things up, the Nitorgen sticker was only applied because we were getting alot of calls asking if they were Nitrogen purged so we added a sticker to help reduce the calls and emails. Under the sticker is the port with a screw so the dry air doesnt escape.

Once again, thanks  :D
MO
Rich

Offline TheOpticZone

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3 scopes in review...Mueller added.
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2005, 09:32:14 AM »
Wow, I don't know what to say.  My wife and I are kind of people, people.  Specially my wife.  We run this business to try and help out our customers as much as we can.  We take more pride in our customer service than having low prices, that is just a bonus.  We really appreciate all the support that Graybeardoutdoors.com and their members have showed us.  We have a great relationship with many members along with Bill.  Graybeardoutdoors will have my support for many years to come.
Jon Jackoviak
The Optic Zone
www.theopticzone.com

The Place for all your Optic Needs!