BC 45-70 lengthened to 45-110???

[Justice Trimble]

:grin: Hello, I got such a great response from everyone on my last thread that I thought I would try another one.  How about lenthening the 45-70 to a 45-110 or 120?  Has anyone tried that with a BC yet?  It sures sounds interesting.  

Thanks!

[quickdtoo]

Thought about it! That's about all, though....

http://4-dproducts.com/chamber_reamers.html

[Haywire Haywood]

I thought about going to 45-90 but then I thought about the recoil and then I saw the price of brass.... then I changed the subject.  :-)

Ian

[Cottonwood]

I know of only one person to ream up to 45-3 1/4" (45-120) case length.  Lets put it this way... I think he spent a better day with his ex-wife.... felt recoil put him on the mend list for a bit, and he quickly put it up for sale.

Now having said that - Owning a 45-2.4" aka 45-90, I can tell you that in a 10 pound repro Sharps with a 28" full octagon barrel is noticable.  The cartridge lengths were done for Long Range Target reasons.

If you get the Handloader magazine Feb 2005 issue on page 58.  Mike Venturino has a good artical on the 45-90 WCF and Sharps 45-2.4" as it was called, and why it is what it is.  If one keeps the 45-90 WCF loadings down with a 300-gr bullet, felt recoil can be managed well in a 10 pound rifle such as the Buffalo Classic in my opinion.  Of course the only smokeless loading for this would be with AA or XMP 5744 powder unless one wanted to load with Black Powder or a sinthetic such as Pyrodex, Tripple 7, Clean Shot and now Black Mag-3.

Now another idea to incorperate into this, is to change the buttstock of the Buffalo Classic to a shotgun style such as you see on most BPCR rifles in the Silhouette game and Long Range Matches.  This would do wonders to displace the felt recoil that one would feel with its current metal cresant buttstock.

[JPH45]

I'm not sure I understand why anyone would want to rechamber a 45-70 to one of its longer relatives, when with smokless loadings the 45-70 will do everything and more that the express cartridges would do. As a BPCR rifle, the Buffalo Classic doesn't qualify anyway, so the rifle cannot be used in competition, so there is little reason short of nostalgia to go to such lengths. One can get plenty of that wonderful sulpher aroma with 55 grains of BP and then work with full cases of 4198 to wring out maximum velocities

[Cottonwood]

JPH45

If you can not understand why there are those of us that would rather load the 45-70 as it was loaded 130 yrs ago, then I can not explain it to you.  There are many of us, that don't want to super charge the 45-70 to maximum velocities.   :shock:  

Just a matter of opinions  :roll:

[Cottonwood]

JPH45, just to kinda go over these again  :roll:

I'm not sure I understand why anyone would want to rechamber a 45-70 to one of its longer relatives, when with smokless loadings the 45-70 will do everything and more that the express cartridges would do.

Your absolutely incorrect here.... try a smokeless loading and shooting beyond 500 yards out to say 804 yards.  A 405-gr bullet will not carry that far accurately, but a 500-gr or 535-gr loaded with BP will because it will buck the wind much better

As a BPCR rifle, the Buffalo Classic doesn't qualify anyway, so the rifle cannot be used in competition, so there is little reason short of nostalgia to go to such lengths.

Well I beg to differ here, there are several matches that will allow the Buffalo Classic to compete in, right next to a Ballard, C. Sharps, Shiloh and Rolling Blocks.... One match is The Quigley Match held every year on Fathers Day Week-end.  SASS is now getting into the Long Range Buffalo Matches etc.  And the Buffalo Classic is allowed at these matches.

So one would do well to develope the Buffalo Classic rifle because there are certain long range events that a 500 plus grain bullet would do well in driven by black powder loads or synthetic black powders.  In these areas black powder leaves smokeless powder in the dust.  And if the Buffalo Classic is reamed out to 45-2.4" or 45-2.6" it will even perform better IF that is what the shooter wants to use or can only afford to use.

So I had to re-address this issue to say.... me thinks you are wrong  

[Deadeye47]

There was a fella on another list group on Yahoo that had his BC recut to 45-120...( Geeze..I'd hate to buy brass for that! 2 bucks a piece!!! :shock: ) he said as of to date that it was a hoot....and went on to say that those that thought that their full house 45-70 loads recoiled were a bunch of (wussies) and didn't know what recoil was untill the trigger broke on a 45-120 load :shock: .  I for one have now done enough to my rifle to make recoil tolerable at the bench. I am plenty happy with the 45-70 loadings but now that I'm getting into BP loading of the 45-70 ...I'm thinking of going on out to 45-90 to get a little more room for the BP to work it's magic.... :roll:  


language in parenthesis edited by Mac OOps... :oops: I try...I really do but....

[Haywire Haywood]

You dirty so-and-sos have me thinking about 45-90 again...  :-D

Ian

[Deadeye47]

You dirty so-and-sos have me thinking about 45-90 again...  :-D

Ian

Maybe we should start a reamer wish list for the 45-90.. :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  Anybody wouldn't have one would they???  If not if we got enough signatures it might be worth buying one and mailing it around...:wink:

[Cottonwood]

Now lets understand the 45-2.4" cartridge a bit......

When Sharps first came out with this cartridge back in 1877 it was loaded with 100 gr of black powder.... I know now your going  :shock:  but that was true as it was first requested by several Target shooters, and not Buffalo Hunters even though there is recorded some bison killed with a 45-2.4" cartridge loading.

The coined name of 45-90 was not until 1886 when Winchester came out with their large bore rifles chambered in a true 45-90 300-gr flatnose bullet and the cartridge was loaded with 90.0 gr of Black Powder.  But when Winchester in 1899 offered other loadings in a 350-gr hollow point and a 405-gr bullet the cartridge was loaded with 85.0 gr of black powder.  Of course around this time the advent of smokeless powder had occured and one could get smokeless powder loadings as well.

Now when you hit a public range with a 45-2.4" that has a 500 to 550-gr paper patch bullet sticking out of the case, there is a certain coolness factor that hits... everyone is going  :eek:  and   :shock:  and your going         :roll:  and then when you touch off that load of black powder and the thunder rolls and the smoke rolls on out.... its like when EF Hutton talks.... you got everyones attention  

Of course there are those guys that are so wrapped up in their smokeless powders, their thinking that old cruddy stuff, won't let them hit #%^... but then guys like those in the winners circle at Camp Perry that are using 45-2.4" and 45-2.6" to score very well at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards.  But they are using bullets that are 540-gr and 550-gr in 20:1 tin lead mix to do it and I already know what lube George Leota uses.  Check out the web site and you'll find it.

Now the next course of fun, is finding should you ream up to 45-2.4" aka 45-90 the best long range bullet for the 1 in 20 rifling twist of the Buffalo Classic rifle.  I advocate only one bullet wt, simply because if your loading with Black Powder setting and resetting your powder compression plug gets to be tasking.  So I use one bullet wt for ALL of my shooting.

I believe the best long range bullet is the Lyman 457132 .458 dia. if your going after target that are extreme out to 1,000 yards.  But if your just wanting to load a 500-gr this bullet offered by Western Bullets is a direct copy of the 500-gr 1881 Govt RN design.

For those considering black powder as their loadings I would highly recomend Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading and for those considering Paper Patching which I will warn you is very addictive.  Brent Danielson has saved you time from going and purchasing Paul Matthews book on the subject but advises that you do if you want to learn more.

But lets let you look at Making, Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets  You will find places more information on where to purchase Swaged bullets at my web-site Black Powder and BPCR Chronicles

Remember this get addicting and there is no cure  :roll:

[Haywire Haywood]

Montanan... you are NOT helping matters any...

Moderator.... Any Moderator.....Please..... Delete this thread forthwith as my budget is being strained just reading it....  100 Starline 45-90 brass = $78.99  Dies = $43... molds.. paper patching supplies and learning.... The frustration of doing it wrong a hundred times before getting it right..

WHO'S GONNA PAY MY ELECTRIC BILL?   AARGH!  :eek:

Anyway, now that that's done:  :roll:

Wassa difference between 45-90 Sharps Straight and 45-90 WCF?

Ian

[Cottonwood]

Wassa difference between 45-90 Sharps Straight and 45-90 WCF?
Ian

Ian

In case length there is no differance.  Back when Sharps first came out with the 45-2.4" cartridge the 90 that you see on the head stamp now depicted the amount of black powder that was used...

You see this with old loading data like 45-70-500  This ment 45 cal, 70.0 gr of Black Powder with a 500-gr bullet hence 45-70-500

Here is the differance with the 45-2.4" as refered to by many in BPCR they are using 75.0 gr or 80.0 gr or 85.0 gr or even 95.0 gr depending on the seating depth of the bullet that will allow the load of black powder.

Many BPCR shooters using the 45-2.6 aka 45-100 are not using 100 gr of black powder, as well as those shooters that have the 45-2.7/8" aka 45-110 and the non historic 45-3.1/4" aka 45-120  They are not using the designed powder charge for their cartridge but instead finding the level they like because of felt recoil and for the accuracy that they've got with that load.  So a guy with a 45-110 may only be using 97.0 gr of Goex FFg and maybe another shooter with a 45-110 is using 85.0 gr of Swiss 1.5 Fg to launch a 550-gr bullet.  Both are getting good accuracy but are far from original loadings, and neither are using 110.0 gr of black powder.

With the Winchester 45-90 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) the standard load at that time in 1886 was 90.0 gr of Black Powder with a 300-gr flat nose bullet.

Just remember the one word to remember when loading Black Powder Cartridges..... C O N S I S T A N C Y

Not only do I use a muzzleloading powder measure, but I weigh my charges so that I know each one is the same.  I use a 24" drop tube to slowly trickle my powder charge into the case so I get uniform compaction of the powder.  I use a 0.030" veg wad others us a LDPE wad after I have used a Powder Compression Plug for getting a consistant powder compression so the bullet I am using gets seated to the exact level each and every-time.

I hope this helps

[Haywire Haywood]

Hmmm... I read that twice and still dunno the difference.  
Midway has dies listed for "45-90 WCF" and "45-90 Sharps Straight".  Is there a difference that would make the dies for one not acceptable for the other?

Ian

[Cottonwood]

Hmmm... I read that twice and still dunno the difference.  
Midway has dies listed for "45-90 WCF" and "45-90 Sharps Straight".  Is there a difference that would make the dies for one not acceptable for the other? Ian

They are virtually the same cartridge identical in everyway.

The dies I have are Lyman 45-90 dies and your brass you are buying is Starline Brass which is 45-90 Winchester.

The name 45-90 Sharps Straight is becuase the Sharps Rifle Co used to tapper cartridges as well.  So it got its name the 45-90 Sharps Straight.



 45-90 WCS or what you call the 45-2.4" Sharps Straight

[Woodbutcher]

So I was at the range and touched off my dainty little Handi 45/70, and the guy next to me... got up off the ground...looked at the ammo... and said "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT THING?
 I don't think the guys in my neighborhood is ready for a 45/90 BP. The smoke 'ud choke em!
 Poor Haywire, your falling victim to that dastardly Montanan fella. Don't he just lead ya on? All them posts bout really neato sights, and big boollits and catiges and loong...shootin. Don't it jest pluck at yer heartstrings? I feel your pain! Boy, do I ever!
 Stuff on this site just ain't in books!                       Woodbutcher

[Buckeye]

What Vel.s could a fellow get with a 45/110 loaded with a good dose of smokless powder ,(loaded heavy with a 405 gr. bullet ?)

[quickdtoo]

I only found smokeless load data for the 45-120 Sharps if that gives you any idea....

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

And this from Starline...

45-90 - 45-70 based case 2.4 inches long is suitable for smokeless and black powder loads. When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads. Reason being case is produced very strong to withstand high pressure loads associated with smokeless hunting loads and since the only way to make brass harder is to work the material our only option is to leave them stiffer and the customers can anneal for specific application. See annealing procedure in commonly asked questions, section #4.

45-100 - 45-70 based case 2.6 inches long. Suitable for black and smokeless powders. When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads. Reason being case is produced very strong to withstand high pressure loads associated with smokeless hunting loads and since the only way to make brass harder is to work the material our only option is to leave them stiffer and the customers can anneal for specific application. See annealing procedure in commonly asked questions, section #4.

http://www.starlinebrass.com/descriptions.html#45-90

[Cottonwood]

If you have ADOBE Reader you can open this link

This is from Accurate Arms which only has one available powder for the cartridge 45-110 Sharps Straight:

45-2.7/8" aka 45-110 Sharps Straight

[Beekeeper]

That .45-110 Sharps looks pretty neat to me. I know a woman who has a .45-70, .45-110, and .45-120 and she loves them all:eek: She said the .45-70 always attracts attention at the range, but the .45-120 really gets them looking. I would love to have a .45-110 :twisted: Now you guys got me thinking.
Zach

[Deadeye47]

The Montanan: Remember this get addicting and there is no cure


Tell me about it...I'm hopelessly addicted now.... 15" Brass drop funnel, compression die,.030 vegetable wads, 500 grain 30to1 bullets from Western bullets, special BP lube, lube die, Black Powder..... :idea: now thinkin 45-90 reamer and brass and new dies...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!  :shock:

[Cottonwood]

The Montanan: Remember this get addicting and there is no cure


Tell me about it...I'm hopelessly addicted now.... 15" Brass drop funnel, compression die,.030 vegetable wads, 500 grain 30to1 bullets from Western bullets, special BP lube, lube die, Black Powder..... :idea: now thinkin 45-90 reamer and brass and new dies...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!  :shock:

Here is a new twist in this... save your Buffalo Classic 45-70 barrel and then order a new Buffalo Classic barrel and have that one reamed up after you get it.  Now you will have two ways of shooting your Buffalo Classic... then after you have shot the 45-90 for a while.. order another Buffalo Classic barrel and have it reamed up to either 45-100 or 45-110

 :-D  :-D  Better leave now before some wives want to string me up  :roll:

[Haywire Haywood]

:twisted: I am EVIL, Yes I am. :twisted:

[James B]

I have a BC on layaway which I will pick up soon. What is the heviest bullet thats suitable for use in the stock rifle? What would be a good starting load for the heavy bullet both in Smokless and Black Powder.?What is a good long range load for target shooting? I have a friend who is really into the Black powder cast bullet shooting but its a new game to this old dog. Thanks a lot.

[Buckeye]

I thank you for your info. on the Vel. of the 45/110 ,but I'm wanting MAX PRESSURE VEL. not that outdated slow poke stuff,Heck I can beat those Vel. easy with my 18.5 in. GG 45/70. Does anyone load'em to the MAX !

[JPH45]

JPH45

If you can not understand why there are those of us that would rather load the 45-70 as it was loaded 130 yrs ago, then I can not explain it to you.  There are many of us, that don't want to super charge the 45-70 to maximum velocities.   :shock:  

Just a matter of opinions  :roll:

Montanan, Please not that the load I used in my 45-70 for hunting this years was a pure lead Lee 405 HP pushed by 15 grains of Unique to an astounding 1200 fps, a very close replication of the 405/55 grain load issued the cavalry in the Trapdoor carbine. Trust me, I don't supercharge my 45-70. I also have a load using 47.5 grains of IMR 3031 under Lees 340 for an astounding 1600 fps, about what the Winchester 45-90 pushed its 300 grain bullets.

I actually do understand the nostalgia of these things, I just don't find it to be a means to an end. I am a custom steel fabricator in 21st century America, not a cowboy or a fellow with delusions of being one.

I would also ask you to look into NRA sanctioned BPCR sillywets. That body does NOT recognize the H&R/NEF rifle for use in competition and for many, NRA sanctioned matches are the only matches available in their region, and while some SASS groups may shoot long range, not all do, it depends on the group and their available facilities, so being the owner of an H&R BC may still leave one out of the games.

At the risk of being censored; Trust me, Alabama ain't Montana, and just because someone doesn't use the same approach to an end doesn't make them an idiot.

[Cottonwood]

JPH45

I don't know why your begging for an argument here.  NO ONE is talking about using the Buffalo Classic in an NRA or BPCR Silhouette match, oh excuse me you did.  But I do think that those that have shown an interest in reaming up have expressed this for their own personal shooting needs and desires.

In case you hadn't noticed here, a cadet rifle was of 22" barrel length and yes they did use a lowered charge of 55.0 gr of black powder while the full barreled 33" Springfield Trapdoor used a full 70.0 gr charge of black powder when it was issued with a 405-gr bullet.

The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.

After the Sandy Hook test of 1879, the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard issue for all rifles.

I suggest that you go back and re-read what others are wanting here.  They are looking at this as a personal up grade, and not one to please you by the way, but to please themselves and learn more by doing it as well.

It would behoove you to stop the personal attacks between Alabama and Montana or in regards to anyone in paticular, it only makes you sound as you are....  :roll:

[Haywire Haywood]

Calm down fellas, there's a fine line between giving each other a good firm poke in the ribs and really taking this stuff personally.  If your dander starts getting up, step back from the keys and get yourself another coffee. :eek:

I'm still torn between it all.  I've got the BC which I really bought for playing around at longer ranges and the 45-90 would be better suited for the 500s that are king in that game.  But if I do that it opens up another world of stuff to learn and the associated expense involved.  I'd need to fit it with a Soule sight which is a bazillion dollars to begin with.  Then comes all the other time consuming things that go along with it.  I wanna... but then again, I don't wanna.  And to top it all off, I now have the Handi 45-70 for general hunting and plinking so having the BC a dedicated Long Range arm wouldn't hamper any informal noise making.

I got some more thinkin to do apparently.  I hate it when I have to do that.   :-D

Ian

P.S.  Justice Trimble...... You started this.. speak up son, I can't hear ya (wedges horn in his ear)

[Mac11700]

JPH45

If you can not understand why there are those of us that would rather load the 45-70 as it was loaded 130 yrs ago, then I can not explain it to you.  There are many of us, that don't want to super charge the 45-70 to maximum velocities.   :shock:  

Just a matter of opinions  :roll:

Montanan, Please not that the load I used in my 45-70 for hunting this years was a pure lead Lee 405 HP pushed by 15 grains of Unique to an astounding 1200 fps, a very close replication of the 405/55 grain load issued the cavalry in the Trapdoor carbine. Trust me, I don't supercharge my 45-70. I also have a load using 47.5 grains of IMR 3031 under Lees 340 for an astounding 1600 fps, about what the Winchester 45-90 pushed its 300 grain bullets.

I actually do understand the nostalgia of these things, I just don't find it to be a means to an end. I am a custom steel fabricator in 21st century America, not a cowboy or a fellow with delusions of being one.

I would also ask you to look into NRA sanctioned BPCR sillywets. That body does NOT recognize the H&R/NEF rifle for use in competition and for many, NRA sanctioned matches are the only matches available in their region, and while some SASS groups may shoot long range, not all do, it depends on the group and their available facilities, so being the owner of an H&R BC may still leave one out of the games.

At the risk of being censored; Trust me, Alabama ain't Montana, and just because someone doesn't use the same approach to an end doesn't make them an idiot.

JPH45:

At the risk of being censored; Trust me, Alabama ain't Montana, and just because someone doesn't use the same approach to an end doesn't make them an idiot.

I don't see where anyone has called you an idiot...I can see where there are several folks interested in the longer cartridge...

There is absolutly no need to make any deparaging remarks about the information given or the giver...of said information...here...if you can't see the need or the attraction...that is strickly your opinion...but as you can see...others on this thread don't feel the same...so it's best to leave it be...while the Buff Classic maynot be allowed in a NRA sanctioned cowboy match...there are otherways and events where it is allowed...that are opened for all to enjoy...and that is the main thing...

Mac

[glock29]

I want to know if you can push the 45/110 or 45/120 to the max like I push my 45/70 to the Ruger pressure level. My 45/70 gives about 4000 lb/ft of energy with a 350gr bullet at 2300fps.
Would like to see what the 45/110 or 120 would do at these pressure levels.
I know there is no NEED in North America for such loads, it is a WANT.
Does anyone publish MAX loads (Ruger Level, no wimps please) for 45/90 110 or 120.
These would probably at least equal the 458 Win Mag & approach the 458 Lott, at a pressure that is compatible with the H&R Rifles.

Recoil ? That jest lets you know you touched off somethin' WORTHWHILE.