Author Topic: 38-55 loading thoughts  (Read 4539 times)

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Offline JPH45

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38-55 loading thoughts
« on: May 16, 2005, 06:01:46 PM »
I found this weekend that I can simply run my fired cases into the expanding die to rebell the mouth, seat a bullet, (cast of course .379) run the loaded case inot the sizing die sans decapping stem turned 1 3/4 turns into the press and shoot away. This is of course with low pressure loads, I haven't tried the technique with full velocity loads, but suspect that 1 in 4 or 5 would stick.

I have also found that the Lee seating die has a small diameter in it near the seating stem, which a .379 bullet will not pass. If I have sized my cases, there is enough resistance that it'll push the lead bullet through, but the fired diameter will allow the bullet to push deeper in the case. I pulled the seating stem button and put a small peice of 3/8 od steel in the hollow and voila, I have full control over my seating depth now.

I have also noted that the expanding button is .373 diameter, perfect for 375 Winchester, not 38-55 which shoud be at least .376 It was this that lead me to try using the fired case without sizing prior to the expander die.

Lastly I think I have a way to gentlylap the chamber up. Take a fired case turn the rim off, tap to a 10-32 or 12-28 and fit with a long screw with eh head sawn off and fill it with lead. Then on a sheet of glass apply a coat of 280 grit lapping compound. Roll the mandrell you've made on the glass applying enough pressure to embend the abrasive in the brass. Chuck into a drill capable of low speed and turn the mandrell in the chamber. might take a couple of mandrells to get there, but I think this would work, maintain the roundness of the chamber and offer more control over the final size than a reamer A 3/8" hardwood dowl could be used in place of the lead, the odject being to use a fired case from the chamber to make the mandrell
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Offline jgalar

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 01:54:13 AM »
JPH45, Lee will make an expander to any size you want. I think they charge $10.

Offline cheatermk3

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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2005, 04:11:17 AM »
John, I'm using a pair of needle-nose pliers to slightly bell the case mouth of my un-resized cases.
Holding the case in one hand and the closed plier in the other, slip the case over the closed jaws of the pliers, until the mouth contacts the outside radius of the plier's jaws.  Then, with a twisting motion, gently push the pliers into the case a bit, just enough to open the case mouth to the point it will admit the base of your bullet.  It doesn't take much force to get the desired result.  Once inside the case, the bullet will "follow the hole", as long as your die is straight and lined up with the axis of the press.  Your case will be straight since it was formed at firing.

Offline Mac11700

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2005, 06:34:33 AM »
JPH45


I have a question for you...is it just a seating depth issue...what I mean is if the case will fit the chamber and the action close properly without a bullet being seated...then it's just a matter of sending the rifle back into NEF and letting them taper the lead to the correct 1-1/2 degrees so that the properly sized .379" dia. lead bullet will not hit the rifling...and if need be lenghten the throat...so that a normal case will chamber...I know you like to fix things yourself...but ...it wouldn't hurt to try to let the factory fix the problem before you attempt it...you know they know about the problem with the 38-55...especially with all the trouble the  Marlin 38-55 Cowboys had...and I'm sure they have a solution for it...

Mac
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Offline JPH45

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 12:48:14 PM »
Not to be contrary Mac11700, but the problem is not in the throat, it is in the diameter of the chamebr itself. If it were in the throat, running the loaded case back into the sizing die, to reduce the diameter of the case neck after seating a bullet would not work, the load would still stop on the bullet ojive/throat contact. Instead what one gets is a load that drops completely in the chamber freely. We are only reducing the case diameter by .002" or so, and only for a length of 1/8-3/16".

To hear that the factory may think it is a throating issue only leaves me in greater doubt they understand the problem at all.

I was only putting out a possible solution for those who may want to enlarge their chamber without hitting it with a reamer. I'm quite satisfied with the performance of my rifle, even if it does take unconventional reloading practices.

Good Shootin' :grin:
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Offline JPH45

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 02:28:09 PM »
Quote from: JPH45

To hear that the factory may think it is a throating issue only leaves me in greater doubt they understand the problem at all.


I believe I miss read you Mac11700. Sorry 'bout that.
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Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 04:47:21 PM »
Mac11700 wrote:
"......it wouldn't hurt to try to let the factory fix the problem before you attempt it...you know they know about the problem with the 38-55...especially with all the trouble the Marlin 38-55 Cowboys had...and I'm sure they have a solution for it... "

Mac, as far as NEF is concerned, there IS no problem.  Our bores are spot on their specs, and so are the chambers.  Their answer is "Shoot factory ammo."   Factory ammo does shoot OK for hunting, a 3" group at 100 yards is minute of deer and the target Gordon sent when they returned my rifle has such a group on it.  

After they had my rifle for repair, and fixed the lockup problem that they insisted over the phone did not exist, Gordon did offer to send me a check for what I paid for the rifle since they couldn't fix what wasn't broke, i.e. my chamber.  Even after a detailed letter and several phone conversations, they still thought that re-reaming the chamber with a new carbide reamer would "give me a few thousandths more length".  This after I had explained several times and in great detail over the phone and in my letter that the problem was that I needed .003-.005" more diameter.  

The offer still stands.  I declined; I wanted to try the rifle after the lockup issue had been resolved and I was hoping that the new carbide reamer would have enlarged my chamber's diameter, which it did but not enough to satisfy me.  Fortunately for me, I finally broke down and tried the sizing a loaded round method, and I have not looked back since.  What I have is a tight-neck chamber for 380" bullets; fired cases need not be resized when using this bullet.  Jacketed bullets of .375" diameter need sized cases to work; they also need a VERY stout factory-style crimp.

 I do not know why NEF is using .376" min and .379" max for land/groove bore dimensions, but that is what Gordon quoted to me as the spec.  It seems to me that they should be using .373/.375 but hey what do I know?

From the several conversations I have had with John and Gordon, I have concluded that neither of them is into shooting and reloading, at least not to the extent as are some of the folks here on this board.  John told me that he has fired hundreds, maybe thousands of rifles on their test firing range.  This does not make you a shooter.  Gordon certainly does not have a firm grasp on the fine points of ammomaking or rifle building.

This does not detract from their abilities as far as customer service goes.  I am quite happy with the way I was treated by them.  They cannot, however, change specs or make deals with individuals to alter rifles beyond what the corporate bigwigs in charge of setting policy dictate.  

Meanwhile, the answers are here for anyone who cares to ask and listen.

Offline Mac11700

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2005, 06:04:05 AM »
JPH45...no problem...I didn't take anything you guys have said wrong...or took offence to your answers...I'm interested in the 38-55...so I have a natural curiosity on it's problems...so...bear with me in my ignorance on this...I do have a few more questions...you stated..

Quote
I have also found that the Lee seating die has a small diameter in it near the seating stem, which a .379 bullet will not pass. If I have sized my cases, there is enough resistance that it'll push the lead bullet through, but the fired diameter will allow the bullet to push deeper in the case.


In my reloading for straight wall cases...be it pistol or rifle...I've found out a few things...now...this is for me...not necessarly you mind ya...but...if your sized case is allowing the bullet to slide into the case...before belling...then you need to have a smaller sizing bushing...this would allow the die to  size it properly so that doesn't happen...or...if this only occures after your belling step...then it's being enlarged by the step inside the die...in which case you will need to back the die off further...or replace the insert to a smaller size...

You also stated...
Quote
Not to be contrary Mac11700, but the problem is not in the throat, it is in the diameter of the chamebr itself. If it were in the throat, running the loaded case back into the sizing die, to reduce the diameter of the case neck after seating a bullet would not work[u/], the load would still stop on the bullet ojive/throat contact. Instead what one gets is a load that drops completely in the chamber freely. We are only reducing the case diameter by .002" or so, and only for a length of 1/8-3/16".


Ok...I'm trying to visualize what your doing here...so correct me if I'm wrong...ok...your removing the decapping pin...and forcing the full case and bullet up into the sizing die...correct???...are you doing this till the the case just partially goes up into the die body...thus only reducing the case moth area for the 1/8"-3/16" ???...If you are...then it well could be the throat area of the case. and enlarging this area .003" would allow you to freely load your cast bullets.....since this would be about  the right measurement for what your trying to accomplish...What you are doing is sizing the brass and the bullet down when you run it up into the sizing die body...at least this is what I'm visualizing what your doing here...???

cheatermk3:

I cannot speak for John or Gordon...and to what they do or donot know or to their other shooting abilities or relaoding abilities...but I have talked to other administrators of Marlin ...and they are aware of the issue. and will fix the problem if the rifle is sent in...this is what I was told.....Now...I will state...if they are telling you to shoot factory loads...they are only telling you what they state to everyone...heck...every manufacture will and does state that..you stated...


Quote
Even after a detailed letter and several phone conversations, they still thought that re-reaming the chamber with a new carbide reamer would "give me a few thousandths more length". This after I had explained several times and in great detail over the phone and in my letter that the problem was that I needed .003-.005" more diameter.


I have to ask you something...what makes you think it wouldn't give you a .003" increase in diameter...did they state it wouldn't?...Did they state it would be exactly the same when you got it back with the exception to the lenght???...so-far...from the both of you...you haven't even seen what they would do...once they had the barrels back a the factory...instead...you deceided to work on them yourselves...if that's how you do things...that's fine...but I would atleast send it back to them...and see if they actually fix the problem before condemming them ...That is the point I was making...

I've spoke to both of these nice Gentelmen on several issues...and have never had them refuse to repair anything rifle I've ever had issue with...

Mac
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Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 06:42:52 AM »
Mac, Please re-read my post above;  I did return my Target to the factory and they did run a new reamer into my chamber.  The point is that the chamber will not accept a round loaded with the properly sized bullet for the bore dimensions.

The issue with the chamber is not length.  It is diameter.  There would be no issue if the bore were properly dimensioned; since it is .379" in the grooves and .376" across the lands, it should be immediately obvious that the chamber needs to be large enough to accept ammo made with .379 or .380" diameter bullets.

I think that a big part of what is going on here is that people cannot believe that such a conflict would have been engineered into existance in the first place.  I sure can't figure out where the specs came from; all I know is that my loads using the 380" bullets won't chamber unless they are reduced in diameter by .002"; and that loads made using .375 diameter jacketed bullets keyhole at 25yds unless they are given a VERY stout crimp.  My guess is that they are obturating in the chamber; that the crimp is raising bullet pull to the point that the thinly jacketed bullets designed for the .375winchester will bump up in the chamber.

Offline Mac11700

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 07:14:23 AM »
I see...my mistake...I didn't see where you had already tried the factory fix....I'm wondering...is everyone of the 38-55 Handi's this way...or perhaps a bad run on a few barrels??????

Mac
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Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 07:54:47 AM »
cheatermk3 wrote:
"...Mac, as far as NEF is concerned, there IS no problem. Our bores are spot on their specs, and so are the chambers."

Mac, our bores are as NEF intended them to be.  This is what Gordon told me, that for the 38-55 minimum diameter, lands, is .376"; max diameter, groove, is .379.  

This is what my bore slugged--.376 lands, .379 grooves.

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 08:07:07 AM »
Ok...I see that now bro...as I said...my mistake...did Gordon or John give you their specs for the chamber...or just say they are within their specs???

If they don't want to fix it correctly...that's a real shame...sounds like a case where you need to go above Gordon...and talk directly with some of the upper mangement at Marlin...those that I've spoken to seem real knowledgable and interested in satisfied customers...

Mac
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Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 08:42:26 AM »
Mac, Gordon did give me their specs for the chamber but I neglected to write them down.  My chamber is on the big side of their specs; .401" at the throat if I remember right.  My loaded rounds using .380" bullets measure .397 i/16 behind the case mouth; and have 8-14 thou. total runout.  After a trip into the sizing die, they measure .397" with 0-4 thou runout.

This works for me.

EDIT:  my loaded rounds using .380" diameter bullets measure .397" 1/16th behind the case mouth with 8-14 thou runout.  After a trip through the sizing die they measure .395" with 0-4 thou. runout.

Offline handirifle

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2005, 09:41:33 AM »
cheatermk3
The bore specs you quoted of .376-379 are correct for the 38-55.  I has never been designed for .375 bore such as the 375 Win or other 375 calibers, nor for the .375 dia bullets.

This was a cartridge designed long before the others.  The fact that you can get .375 dia bullets to NOT keyhole, is in my mind outstanding if your bore is within the 376-379 range.

I'd suggest using 377 or larger dia bullets and curing the issue of these not chambering properly.  While your method of sizing a loaded round is a fix of sorts, I'd suggest using a fired case, with a cast bullet crimped into place (NO powder or primer of course) and embed the lapping compound into it to ream the throat to your desired dimensions.

I ran into this type of problem on the first barrel on my BC (see my web site for details) and they did replace the barrel.  This would chamber all rounds but shot them in patterns and some keyholes.

The new barrel slugged much more consistant and shot a LOT better.  If the .379 or .380 bullet has to squeeze through the throat all accuracy will be lost.  If it is allowed to slip through the throat, then it will engage the lands normally and SHOULD improve accuracy considerably.

I think the sizing the loaded round is curing a symptom, but not the problem.  Just my humble opinion.
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Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2005, 11:06:18 AM »
Handi, you are correct.  What we're doing sizing the loaded round enables us to fit a round made with the correct size cast bullet for the bore into a chamber designed to handle rounds made with the .375" bullets that Winchester puts into their factory ammo.  I know what winchester is using because I measured the components of a dismantled factory round.  

This factory ammo does work in our Targets, it is what NEF uses to test fire their rifles.  I got this info from both John and Gordon at customer service.

Only that part of the bullet that is inside the case is being reduced in diameter.  Since I'm seating the bullet to the top lube groove, not the crimp groove, enough of the bullet's original daimeter remains that the rear must be bumping up to bore diameter.  I should pull a bullet from one of my loaded rounds made this way to see how much of the bullet is reduced, and to what dimension it is reduced.  It can't be more than .002" though so that would leave me a bullet of .378".

Offline JPH45

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 03:23:41 PM »
handirifle, I too agree, the method of running a loaded case back into the sizing die is a solution for the symptom, not the problem. But it works and works well, not just for a few of us here, but for many others who have had this problem. This is a solution I first read about on an AR thread back in the winter and it was an old thread then.  This is not a new problem, and NEF/Marlin is doing all they can to avoid fixing the problem they created, namely an under diameter chamber that is mismatched with a large bore diameter. It would have been far simplier to have begun by measuring the Winchester ammo and sizing the bore accordingly. Had they done this we would have have bores that match your 375 Big Bore, .366 bore, 376 groove. Marlin has also done this same silliness on their 38-55 lever rifle. I can only assume NEF/Marlin is avoiding the real issue here.

All that is OK by me. I've firmly decided that I am NOT going to buy another NEF. I'm saving my pennies for the little 32 H&R Mag Taurus rifle that according to their website will be available this coming winter. Too bad that NEF has diddled away the last two and a half years rather than come out with what their customers are obvioulsy asking for, barrels with proper chambers, chambered for cartridges that expand the shooting possibilities, not simply mimick one another.

This forum began with a membership that originated on a talk board that Marlin/NEF started. Even then people were asking for stuff like 32-20's, 25-20's 32 H&R Mags  25-35's etc. Instead we are rewarded with a ballistic copy of the 308 and 30-30. Meanwhile the Cowboy Action types are screaming for something like a 32 Mag rifle. I don't think NEF knows who there audience is or what they want, even when they are told. Enough for me.  

The 44 Mag is great, I'm glad I have mine and wouldn't part with it. I'd much rather have had a properly chambered 357 Magnum, but since SAAMI specs allows such ridiculouness I now have a 357 Maximum. I like it, I like it alot. It does most everything I wanted my 30-30 to do. But it is not the rifle I wanted. I'm glad I have the 38-55 and won't take anything for it. It is obviously what I wanted it to be, something that would throw 265-300 grain bullets at circa 1800-1900 fps without beating the snot out of me to get there. It is also very accurate in spite of it's ridiculous mismatch of chamber and bore dimensions.

I'm sure that NEF will sell a boatload of 7.62x39's and 7mm-08's, but not to me. And not to a lot of other shooters who are haunting gunshops, pawn shops,  classified listings, ebay and other sources for the rifles and chamberings our makers produced in the past but seem to be completely reluctant to reissue even in the face of overwhelming demand. Yet they give us short magnums and ultra magnums, even though I have yet to find anyone who was asking for them. There was a time I felt pretty loyal to NEF. Not today. There was a time when I wanted to always buy American steel, but those companies aren't supporting me, so my dollars are going elsewhere.
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Offline handirifle

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 04:33:18 PM »
cheatermk3
It would be interesting to see what dia they come out at.  I'm still suprised at how well it works.

JPH
Sorry to hear that, but at the same time I fully understand the frustration.  Have had those thoughts often myself.  I do that till something like the deal cookieman gave me on a 243 barrel (unshot as of yet) but I have hight hopes.  I just finished prepping the barrel tonight and need to get some high Luepold rings for it.

Sometimes it seems like we are talking to deaf ears, but I have decided that if the 243 barrel cannot be made to shoot, it will either be traded or converted to something that will.
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Offline Mac11700

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2005, 08:23:47 PM »
Quote from: cheatermk3
Mac, Gordon did give me their specs for the chamber but I neglected to write them down.  My chamber is on the big side of their specs; .401" at the throat if I remember right.  My loaded rounds using .380" bullets measure .397 i/16 behind the case mouth; and have 8-14 thou. total runout .  After a trip into the sizing die, they measure .397" with 0-4 thou runout.
 
This works for me.
 
EDIT:  my loaded rounds using .380" diameter bullets measure .397" 1/16th behind the case mouth with 8-14 thou runout.  After a trip through the sizing die they measure .395" with 0-4 thou. runout.

 
Wow :eek: you don't have a rifle chambered for a 38-55...you have one chambered for a  375 Winchester...especially if they lenghtnd your throat...your grooves are for the 375...and from what I've found thru reasearching this topic...so are the lands in your configuration...not to mention the chamber size...
 
Have you ever thought about selling it off??? If you ever do...please let me be first to buy it from you...if you don't have plans to sell it...why not just load it for the 375 with the proper sized bullets??? The rifle can handle the pressure from it... and cast data is available too....

I really do understand why you a bit ticked off...but...since Gordan offered to replace it...or buy it back...they have satisfied their legal obligation...

Mac
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Offline JPH45

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2005, 04:55:26 PM »
Quote from: cheatermk3
cheatermk3 wrote:
"...Mac, as far as NEF is concerned, there IS no problem. Our bores are spot on their specs, and so are the chambers."

Mac, our bores are as NEF intended them to be.  This is what Gordon told me, that for the 38-55 minimum diameter, lands, is .376"; max diameter, groove, is .379.  

This is what my bore slugged--.376 lands, .379 grooves.


Mac11700, cheatermk3's barrel is NOT 375 Winchester dimensions. SAMMI calls for 375 Winchester barrels to be .366 bore and .376 groove. Go to lever guns .com and click on the cartridge drawings. Look at the 375 and the 38-55 drawings. What NEF is making is neither nor. These barrels have 375 Win chamber length and 38-55 diameter at the throat.....at best. You can't put a case sized to 375 Winchester case dimensions in one of these chambers without effort. That was of course the intent of Winchester in making hte 375 a slightly larger case, to prevent it from being stuck in some worn out '94. A disscussion of die sizes warrents it's own thread, and is just as whacky.

What NEF/Marlin has done is create a Frankenstien barrel with bastard chamber and the old 38-55 bore/groove (not even that, the .376 bore is oversize) So it won't even properly grip, therefore won't properly shoot,  the only ammunition NEF says to use in the gun. As ridiculous as it may sound, taking a 375 Win reamer to the chamber would most likely solve the chambering problem. I offered a method of making a mandrell to lap it out a bit at a time instead of just taking an irreplaceable hunk out of it. thing is that the barrel is very shootable as is, just forget everything you think you know about reloading. The methods the blackpowder shooters use do just fine, shoot it, load it, shoot it, load it.....repeat often.

As a side note to any who are interested, I emailed Dave at CHD4, and he can make a die to bump up factory bullets. Other disscussions  strongly suggest that as bullet making goes, bumping up is the way to go to preserve bullet integrity. Problem is, the investment would be something like $200.00. A bit pricey for my tastes. Anyone interested in bumping up a jacketed bullet with teflon tape? I've done it with cast. A paper patch should be an option as well.

(Edited for syntax)
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2005, 07:57:21 PM »
JPH45:
Quote

Mac11700, cheatermk3's barrel is NOT 375 Winchester dimensions. SAMMI calls for 375 Winchester barrels to be .366 bore and .376 groove.


Well...from the looks of it it's closer to being a 375 spec'd gun...than a 38-55....since his case mouth area is .401 there...while his lands are .376"...so why not just use 375 Winchester brass...?

I've got my Lyman 48th edition open in front of me as I type...pgs.. 270-271...and I'm looking at what both are supposed to be...according to them..

The only problem I would see using the 375 brass is if the area back by the web..  .200" from the back of the rim to be exact...on their drawing of the 38-55 the measurement is .4191".....on the 375...it's .4198"...now...at the case  mouth on the 38-55...it shows .3922" and on the 375...it shows   .400"...this is why I'm saying it's closer to a 375 case than a 38-55 case...that's all...

Mac...
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Offline Badnews Bob

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2005, 03:57:02 AM »
All the brass you buy now is .375 size not .38-55, I've cast my chamber it has almost no throat to speak of, The problem looks to me like the chamber is just a little to small and the throat is just a little to small for .380 dia bullets it would work great for .376 sized rounds but the bore is to big for those. It is not a reloading problem, I've tried three die sets and just about everything I can find to try same problem loaded rounds don't drop in. You can force them in and they shoot well also they eject well, The chamber cast shows the chamber to be exactlly the same legnth as a loaded case and the throat lookslike the roll crimp I use but is smaller ID than  the rounds OD thats the problem Chamber is not a .38-55.    Its to short and not the right dia.

Now I just need a chamber reamer with the right specs, should be a hand powered deal, any clues.
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Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2005, 04:21:57 AM »
Mac11700 wrote:
""...so why not just use 375 Winchester brass...? "

Because 375 Winchester brass is thicker than 38-55 brass which would only compound the problem of the chamber being too NARROW (i.e., not WIDE enough.

My quoting .401" was from memory and this "measurement' was done using a snap mike, so it is at best an inferred dimension.  Even so, let's assume that .401" is correct.  If it were correct, why then will a loaded round that measures .397 not chamber freely, and the action not close and lockup, and the unfired round not eject; and one reduced to .395" be able to do all these things?  

I think that it is a combination of factors, the major one being the outside diameter of the round, the other being the degree of alignment(or lack thereof) in my rounds as they emerge from the seater die.  The total runout of my loaded rounds, before being pushed into the sizing die, is from 8-14 thousandths. After being sized, the outside diameter is reduced by .002, to .395", and the total runout reduced to 0-4 thousandths.

Winchester Factory ammo measures .392" and has anywhere from 8-16 thou runout; that's from a sample of 15 rounds from the same box.  In my experience total runout of factory ammo runs anywhere from 4-20
thou. whether you check 223 from remington or 30-06 from military production.  I have checked hundreds of factory rounds of this over the years.

So, how is it that factory ammo stabilizes in my barrel?

Believe me, this question had me stumped for weeks.  I tried shooting ammo that I made with jacketed bullets when I first got the gun, after not being able to chamber rounds made with the 380 cast bullets.  The jacketed bullets keyholed badly, without exception.

So then I bought a box of factory 38-55 ammo and shot 3 rounds into 1-1/2" group at 50 yds; they made perfectly round holes in the target.

I believe the answer is the VERY STOUT factory crimp winchester puts on their ammo.  I am able to get the 375" bullets to stabilize in my barrel using a Lee factory crimp die and jacketed bullets designed for use in the 375 winchester, that have thin jackets.

There are two cures for the chamber/bore mismatch that Marlin/NEF has engineered into existance.  

One would be to reduce the bore dimensions to properly stabilize 375" bullets.  Since you cannot make a hole smaller, this would mean recalling all the 38-55 barrels out there and replacing them.  I don't think that this is gonna happen.

The other would be to enlarge the chambers of existing barrels, on request;  this might make them unsuitable or unsafe for use with factory ammo, so I don't think this will happen either.

Or, Marlin/NEF could continue to deny/ignore the problem; apparently most owners are shooting factory ammo with acceptable results, so that's my take on the future of the 38-55 in Marlin and NEF rifles.  

Let's not forget that the root of the problem is that Winchester has taken the cost cutting step of standardizing the 38-55 and 375 win. ammunition they produce by using the 375" diameter bullets in both calibers.  

Another fine mess the pencil-pushing cost-cutters have gotten us into!

Offline Mac11700

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2005, 05:08:40 AM »
Ok...there is a-lot of variance here I see...more so than what ever should have been allowed to be sold...and it's a delimma for sure...

There would only be 2 choices for me...

One...return the rifle and get a refund...

Two...send it out and have it made into something else...

I'm not real stubborne...when it comes to my rifles...if they are accurate...I keep them...if they aren't...I sell them or trade them...every now and then...I will sell or trade some of my accurate ones...to further another project ...but...I won't have an inaccurate gun in my home...period...nor will I have something that isn't chambered properly or incorrectly...

I can't speak for anyone else but myself here...this is just how and what I would do...

I hope it works out for you guys...one way or the other...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Woodbutcher

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38/55
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2005, 01:07:16 PM »
Gentlemen, please comment. Just how difficult is it for a gunsmith to use a reamer to correct/enlarge the chamber. Given that a competent smith determines the correct situation.
 It seems that you are saying that loading techniques can deal with this situation.
 (1) Cast the chamber and measure
 (2) slug the bore to determine the correct dia. for lead bullets
 (3) have a smith ream the bore???              
  Am I on the right track??                       Woodbutcher

Offline handirifle

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2005, 02:07:30 PM »
What Mac said :wink:
God, Family, and guns, in that order!

Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2005, 02:31:16 PM »
Quote from: Mac11700
I can't speak for anyone else but myself here...this is just how and what I would do...

I hope it works out for you guys...one way or the other...

Mac


Mac, it has already been worked out.

I know it just seems wrong to be sizing a loaded round.  It sure took me to be about desperate before I finally listened, and HEARD, what jph45 and a few others were telling me.  But I finally heard what they were saying, that it worked for them.  And so it does for me, and quite nicely too I might add.  

What it amounts to is ammo that is fitted to the chamber, a condition for which benchresters and varminters pay custom gunsmiths to achieve for them--a tight-neck chamber.


As John said, you need to forget a lot of what you thought you knew about reloading when dealing with this crazy mismatch--but, happily, there is a solution that works.  Ya just gotta be open-minded enough to hear what someone else's experience is telling you.  

I often have a tough time with the open-minded part.


Woodbutcher,
Yes, you are on the right track.  But, you're going over the same ground that others have trod before you.  If you need to make the journey, as I did, then go for it.

I was reluctant to re-ream because I had an additional problem, the gun was not locking up to my satisfaction; re-reaming voids the warranty and absolves NEF of any obligation to help you.  Additionally, firing factory ammo becomes an iffy proposition, in my estimation.  This is because, with a 376/379 barrel, the 375" bullet must "bump up"; enlarging the chamber may prevent this from happening.

I'll repeat: I can stabilize 375" bullets in my barrel by reproducing the factory crimp, which is VERY deep.  I can almost get there using the Lee factory crimp die;  bushing the round with a shim allows a bit more crimp.  The additional bullet pull must be retarding the bullet's expulsion from the case at the moment of firing, long enough for the pressure inside the case to build up enough that obturation is occurring WHILE THE BULLET IS STILL INSIDE THE CASE.  There can be no other answer given the dimensions involved.  

I proved this to myself in order to satisfy my curiosity; I intended to use lead bullets from the outset.  But it is nice to know that I can also shoot factory ammo, as well as homemade ammo using jacketed bullets that don't cost an arm and a leg to purchase, and are readily available locally.

By the way, I really like the way the rifle carries, points, and now, shoots.  I've been really busy at home and getting ready to go varmint hunting this june.  When I get back, I'll be working up accuracy loads with a new batch of brass and a newly-rebuilt powder measure.  Hopefully I can put meat on the table with my 38-55; and maybe next year, who knows...the Quigley?

I am an optimist.  And I don't give up easily.

Offline DPRinks

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.38-55
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2005, 04:44:49 PM »
I am having a very hard time believing a barrel with .0015 deep grooves, I have never heard of one with less than .004 deep grooves, many have .005 or .006 deep grooves, is there any special reason for such shallow grooves?
Don
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Offline cheatermk3

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Re: .38-55
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2005, 03:37:27 AM »
Quote from: DPRinks
... is there any special reason for such shallow grooves?
Don


NEF advertises these rifles, Buffalo classic and Target 38-55, as having"...original Ballard rifling..."

When I ordered mine, I expected to receive a rifle with wide, deep grooves and wide tall lands.  I also expected that the chamber and bore dimensions would be matched, complimentary.  

Silly me.

Offline quickdtoo

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2005, 05:26:00 AM »
FWIW, the 2004 catalog just states "original style rifling"..... :?  They may be trying to infer Ballard rifling, but they don't specifically state that. On their web site they have a similar statement that infers the same...

Quote
The 38-55 cartridge traces its roots to the early 1880s, when it was developed for target shooting by the Ballard Rifle Company. The Target Model employs a 28" heavy target barrel and original style rifling for consistent accuracy.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline cheatermk3

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38-55 loading thoughts
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2005, 07:15:59 AM »
You're right, it doesn't specifically say "Ballard style rifling".  It's just implied.  

Thanks for the correction, Quick.