Big problem...

[mmb1226]

My brother and a friend of his were at the range and the other kid put a 7.62x39 into our 243 ultra.  The bullet fired and thanfully no one was injured. The problem now is we can not get the action to break open to remove the shot brass. Any ideas? Also, what effect do you guys think there was on the bore since this is obviously a larger projectile?

[cheatermk3]

I'm having trouble believing that a 7.62 NATO round chambered in a 243 caliber handi.

[mt3030]

First, I have to ask: Do you mean your brother's friend chambered and fired a 7.62x39 round in your 243 rifle? (My first thought was you meant a 7.62 NATO round, but that is impossible.) If this is the case, I applaud the Handi for not coming apart or at least opening on firing. The pressures generated as the .310 bullet was swagged down to .243 must of been tremendous. Talk about a "proof" load! Will the barrel release lever depress? If so, put the rifle over you knee and open it. (Now this is just the advice of what I would do. Someone will probably have some better advice.) And then have the headspace checked before you shoot again. I would think that there would be a good chance you stretched the frame. But then again, I would never thought it would held together or stayed locked. Best of luck.
Wally

[mmb1226]

Yes it was a 7.62x39 and no the button will not depress. It is locked.

[Graybeard]

Take it to a qualified gunsmith or return it to NEF. It shouldn't be opened or fired again until it's checked for safety. The possibility is high that it is ruined, at least the barrel, perhaps the frame also. Even if you get it open and the case out DO NOT FIRE IT until it is checked by a qualified gunsmith or the factory.

[Fred M]

You have to take all the pins out of the action. Remove the trigger. the transfer bar and the latch leaver
Punch out the latch pin and remove the latch from the inside. Spray the chamber end with penetrating fluid The gun should now open. Stay away from the Rusky s--t. I think the barrel will be ok after a good cleaning??

[Graybeard]

I think the barrel will be ok after a good cleaning??

How the devil can you say that without even seeing the barrel? No one can have a clue as to the safety of this gun having been fired with such an over size round without actually laying hands and eyes on it. To fire a gun again after this without taking it to a qualified gunsmith is sheer stupidity.

[JPH45]

Stay away from the breech end while you are trying to open it. While I think this would be highly unlikely, I would be a bit concerned about where 45,000 psi or so went. Did it go down the bore? Leak past the case??? Hmmmm.....

I've no question the barrel is bulged and likely the hinge bent bent if not the frame streached. Gun is probably trash. Actually an inexpensive lesson in arms saftey (not preachin') some people loose body parts with things such as this. Sorry this happened to you, glad no one is hurt.

[.308]

Amen, to what JPH45 said, no pun intended. I agree with G/B also, no way I would consider shooting without it was given a good look/repaired by a good gunsmith. At least if it was mine I would be thanking my lucky stars nobody was hurt, and the heck with the gun even if it was trashed.  :eek:

[Lone Star]

Stay away from the breech end while you are trying to open it. While I think this would be highly unlikely, I would be a bit concerned about where 45,000 psi or so went. Did it go down the bore? Leak past the case???

 Why would he want to stay away from the breech end long after the event?  Does anyone actually believe that there is contained pressure somewhere in the action?   :roll:  Ackley stated that the pressure needed to swage a .358 caliber bulelt down to .308" causes no noticeable increase in pressure.  The reason is presumed to be that the bullet is fully resized before the maximum chamber pressure is reached.  But Ackley made many "mistakes" in his work.....

I think the barrel will be ok after a good cleaning??

GB is correct, this is a ridiculous statement - ignore it!  Consider the rifle to be a boat anchor until the factory looks at it.  Unless you find a 'smith familiar with Handis, best to let the factory do its thing, they know all the tolerences.  Personally I'd junk it regardless, no one knows the damage which might have weakened the action to cause it to "let go" in the future.

[R.W.Dale]

You're gun is more than likely trash BUT you gotta post some pictures of this trainwreck after you get the action open.

[Fred M]

GB.

The momentum of the lead core bullet will swage its way down the bore after part of it is sheared off by the 243 throat. The 12MM extra space in the 243 chamber will greatly reduce pressure. Gases will forced rear ward and may have damaged the standing breech. The barrel I still think will be OK since there was no obstruction in the barrel, and steel is a lot harder than a lead core bullet. No need to get paranoid. The pressure was relieved otherwise the gun would have blown up.

[35Rem]

Fred,

I wouldn't be so confident that the barrel is perfectly fine, without a hands on inspection.  The steel is hard, however, it can be stressed to a breaking point.  It may not be visually apparent that the steel has lost it's strength until you stuff another 60 psi bomb in it.  That may yield much less than satisfactory results.  The point is that the machine (read gun) was made to do something it was not designed for.  The only way to be sure it is still operable is with a professional's inspection.  My engineering background and better judgement says have it looked at.

[R.W.Dale]

GB.

The momentum of the lead core bullet will swage its way down the bore after part of it is sheared off by the 243 throat. The 12MM extra space in the 243 chamber will greatly reduce pressure. Gases will forced rear ward and may have damaged the standing breech. The barrel I still think will be OK since there was no obstruction in the barrel, and steel is a lot harder than a lead core bullet. No need to get paranoid. The pressure was relieved otherwise the gun would have blown up.

 12mm extra space huh!  I placed a 7.62 round into my .243 barrel and the shorter round headspaces on the BULLET. You sir are going on my ignore list.

[mmb1226]

Thanks for everyones input. We ARE very lucky all we ended up with was a damaged rifle. If I send it back to H&R I will have to send it back with the shell still in the action. Is it ok to mail something like this? Anyone on the board from STL know of a gunsmith who works with these rifles a lot?

[mt3030]

I would not hesitate to ship as is. Enclose a note giving the history. They can verify that the round is fired by using a rod to measure from muzzle to rear of fired case. Even if you go to the work of removing pins to get the rifle open, it still should go back to NEF before firing again. Why not let them do it? Give them a call and they can provide any special instructions.
Wally

[De41mag]

That Russian stuff uses a STEEL jacket, copper washed.
I bet it's still in the barrel.  :shock:

Dennis

[R.W.Dale]

That Russian stuff uses a STEEL jacket, copper washed.
I bet it's still in the barrel.  :shock:

Dennis

 I agree.

[mmb1226]

It wasn't the Russian stuff.  Normal Winchester Brass ammo.

[mt3030]

I would be surprised if there is anything in the bore. All the chamber pressure had to vent somewhere. And since it did not come out of the action in a rather nasty ball of gasious flame and heat, I think it went out the muzzle. Check it to be sure. Do you have a wood rod or cleaning rod you can check the distance from muzzle to first obstruction? If the bore is clear that distance will be just short of the muzzle to breach face distance. If it stops well short of that distance there is something in there. Good luck.

Wally

[cheatermk3]

mmb-
I thought you meant 7.62 NATO--my mistake.

No way the bullet is still in the barrel--steel jacket or not it certainly swaged down to 244 and went downrange.

There's probably all kinds of residue/shavings in the mechanism that is keeping the latch lever from being depressed.  

Send it to NEF or take it to a qualified gunsmith.

Fred's right about the extra 12mm- the bullet must have stopped somewhere in the shoulder area of the chamber when your brother's friend put it into the rifle. Think about it--no way could a .311 or even a 308 diameter bullet pass through the neck area of a .243's chamber by hand-pressure alone, no matter how hard the action was slammed shut--the max dimension there is probably about .280".  The extra room in the chamber must have allowed the pressure to be lowered enough that the bullet went out the muzzle in stead of the rifle coming apart, which I agree it may very well do the next time it's fired.

[ken s]

GB.

The momentum of the lead core bullet will swage its way down the bore after part of it is sheared off by the 243 throat. The 12MM extra space in the 243 chamber will greatly reduce pressure. Gases will forced rear ward and may have damaged the standing breech. The barrel I still think will be OK since there was no obstruction in the barrel, and steel is a lot harder than a lead core bullet. No need to get paranoid. The pressure was relieved otherwise the gun would have blown up.

Give it up Fred
        All the know it all shade tree Gunschmitt's & Engineers got u out numbered. they all bin there done that.
                                          ken s :roll:  :roll:

[bluebayou]

Just so my two cents on the side thread here:
I wouldn't hesitate to take Fred M's advice on anything gun related.  Just do a search by author for Fred M and read some of the results.  He is a very knowledgable guy, and whether he is right or not about this barrel will be seen after it goes to NEF.  I think that is the common sense solution- pay some shipping and let them take a look at it.  

FWIW, I seem to remember some Guns and Ammo guys a few years ago shooing a 30-06 down a 270 barrel (after rechambering but not rebarrelling).  This was one of those "let's see what happens" kind of things.  Nothing happened.  The .308 bullet compressed/shaved down to .277 and hit some paper.  

Is the gun safe?  Don't know.  Would I do it?  No.  Any reason to bust on Fred M?  No.

[mmb1226]

After talking to the guy who fired the gun I am positive that the bullet exited the barrel. He said that a person standing behind him saw a "trail" all the way down range. He described it as looking like a bullet out of the movie "The Matrix".

[Fred M]

The only obvious damage as reported is that latch won't open the rifle.
No bulge no splits. That tell me the pressure was relieved otherwise it be in pieces.

With the expansion ratio of the 243 chamber against that of the 7.62x39 tells me of an instant pressure drop. The chamber neck of the 243 sheared of the off the bullet jacket and let the core travel down the bore.
The pressure has only two ways to go back through the action and up the barrel since the barrel had no obstruction.

I did not say that gun is still shootable which I doubt, but I think that the barrel is ok.

If you know something about the action design you know that in front of the latch at the chamber mouth the steel is pretty thin and with reason since the pressure there will  be no more than 9000 psi,  so a 100% safety factor make it say 18 K.

That is the weak spot and that is perhaps why the latch is jammed in place by bulged standing breech. In this case the action is toast.

I don't see anybody else come up with a plausible explanation. Only wise cracks. By all means send it in to H&R, but I punch out the pins to see with my own eyes first what is what.

Note: I am pleased the rifle did not blow up and someone got seriously hurt. A testimonial of the strength of this little gun. I am out of this no more comments.

[mitchell]

Is the gun safe?  Don't know.  Would I do it?  No.  Any reason to bust on Fred M?  No.

dido come on people play nice .



send the gun back to NEF , and test fire your self when you get it back (strap it to a tire, go behind a wall and pull a string tied to the trigger)

[Sourdough]

I would not ship it, till I removed the case.  People at the Postal Service, UPS, or Fed Ex, will come unglued when they ask if it's loaded or not and you say it has a stuck round in the chamber.  I would either take it to a gunsmith, or disassemble it myself.  A good vise and a BIG Rubber Mallet work wonders.  Personally I feel the gun is trashed, but it's worth opening it to see.  

After getting it opened and removing the spent case, I'd send it to NEF so their engineers could take a look at it, and measure the damage done.

[Mac11700]

Thanks for everyones input. We ARE very lucky all we ended up with was a damaged rifle. If I send it back to H&R I will have to send it back with the shell still in the action. Is it ok to mail something like this? Anyone on the board from STL know of a gunsmith who works with these rifles a lot?

Not alot with them...but...he's pretty good at repairing all different types...
JD Hinson Gunsmith   1-636-742-5946

They used to be Gravios Gun Smiths...here in Sunset Hills on Gravios. Are you in the city or county?

Mac

[Mac11700]

Is the gun safe?  Don't know.  Would I do it?  No.  Any reason to bust on Fred M?  No.

dido come on people play nice .



send the gun back to NEF , and test fire your self when you get it back (strap it to a tire, go behind a wall and pull a string tied to the trigger)

What he said :agree:

Mac

[handirifle]

I agree with sourdough.

Someone else said to depress the latch and use your knee (or something less breakable) and with the latch depressed, thump it hard enough to open it and then take some kind of cleaning rod or similar and remove the case.

This will allow you to see any obvious damage.  NEF is VERY adamant about ANY casings in the chamber.

This is an interesting thread, for a NUMBER of reasons.  Boy we all have our opinions.