Range Report - 445 Super Mag

[MtJerry]

Well, I got some good news, and I got some bad news.

Bad news, I have the smae problem with case swell around the web.  I didn't measure it, but it's very obvious.

Good news, At 50 yards I got good results with both the 265gr. Beartooth AND the 300gr. XTP.

For the record I was using a Williams WGRS rear peep sight and the factory front sight.

265gr. Beartooth - best group was .441 CTC

31.5gr. of WW296 - estimated velocity was 1950fps (I do not own a crony)
Pointblank says with this load I have a Taylor Knock-out Factor that is "good" for Elk and "excellent" for deer out to 200 yards.
There is 1455fp. of energy at 100 yards and 946fp. of energy at 200 yards.

300gr. XTP gave me a really nice cloverleaf that was .436 CTC

30.0gr. of WW296 - estimated velocity of 1800fps.
Pointblank says with this load I have a Taylor KnockOut Factor that is "excellent" for Elk at 100 yards and "good" at 200 yards.  For deer is says "excellent" out to 200 yards.
There is 1573fp of energy at 100 yards, 1149 at 200 yards, and still chugging along with at 870fp. at 300 yards.

Does the 445 have the same recoil as a 45-70 with 300gr. bullets?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!!  It is greater than a standard 44mag, but noticably less than my .270 and MUCH less than a 300gr. 45-70 load at 1800 fps. ... this is a load my wife can shoot!!!  :wink:

In short, I think we have a winning combination ... the Handi Rifle and the 445 Super Mag  

I have some pictures, but the site I use (picyard) is down right now.  I'll try again later.

[jeff223]

do you feel the case swell is going to be a problem?going to cut down on case life?is this a problem or no?i am just wondering about this.do the cases pull out of the chamber hard once they are fired?

the chamber on my Contender barrel seems to be just fine.the brass looks in A-1 shape after its fired and some of my brass has been loaded 4 times.

what do you think is causing the case swell?is it caused from the factory chamber being alittle bigger than it should be?

[Mainer]

Interesting range report!!   Thanks for all the info.

[.308]

Jerry, That was some shooting. Under 1/2" with open sights at 50 yds.   Young eyes and steady nerves=good shooting.   :grin:

Jeff, Looks like the swelling is caused by a somewhat oversized chamber. Everyone that's checked in that shoots a Handi has said they noticed it. Heck if the bore is .432 you know the chamber is big too. We'll just have to see if it shortens case life. Maybe not.  :?

Sounds like the .430 and .432 bullets are the ticket for the Handi's. :wink:

[Ditchdigger]

MtJerry I used a 300 gr. XTP and 30 grs of 296 and it chrono'ed 1977 fps. Its hard to believe that a 300 gr. bullet from a 44 caliber is easier on the shoulder than a 45 70 at the same speed ,but it seems like just about everyone that's shot the 445 agrees on this. I've said it before but I still think a younger boy or girl could shoot the 44 mag first and with a little range time could move up to the 445 supermag.   Digger

[MtJerry]

do you feel the case swell is going to be a problem?going to cut down on case life?is this a problem or no?i am just wondering about this.do the cases pull out of the chamber hard once they are fired?

the chamber on my Contender barrel seems to be just fine.the brass looks in A-1 shape after its fired and some of my brass has been loaded 4 times.

what do you think is causing the case swell?is it caused from the factory chamber being alittle bigger than it should be?

If this problem is not resolved, then yes, I think it will be a problem as it will indeed shorten case life due to having to work it so much.

To be honest, I think it has to do with the sizing dies.  The swell is EXACTLY in the spot where the case stops going into the sizing die.  If I remove the decapping pin, I can force it further into the case, but it causes the neck to crimp down and than it is worked again when I flare the neck and then seat the bullet.

There were NO problem ejecting the spent round.  They flew out over my shoulder if I didn't catch them.

I don't think the factory chamber is big, I am not seeing this problem with my 44mag brass (which has had NO changes in accuracy since the rechamber  :wink: ).  They come out looking just like they did.  

At this point, I think the solution is going to be one of two options:

1.  keep using the 44mag dies, and CLOSELY watch for signs of split case-mounts, head seperation, etc. and replace brass more frequently.

2.  Buy 445sm dies and the problem will be gone.

[.308]

My 44 mag brass swells just like the Super brass does. I don't change the adjustment on my dies to size the Super brass, I size it and the 44 mag the same. Mine are Lee dies. :?

[MtJerry]

Hmmmmmmmm .... maybe we are trying to make this a problem when it really isn't???

 :?

I dunno ...

I AM HAPPY with the results though  :-D  :-D  :-D

[JPH45]

I'd be curious to know how much the swell is. Would you measure a fresh unfired case and then measure a fired case and post the diameters? I don't ful length size any of my straight wall cases. I size only the area that the bullet occupies and leave the rest alone. I do this on full pressure 357 Max, 38-55, 44 Mag, 45-70 (when I had one) It couls be called neck sizing, and I guess that is the correct term, but in a chamber in a single shot rifle I see very little need for full length resizing and it definately helps the life of the brass.

Since Starline is the only maker of 445 SM brass, it is likely that what you are seeing is lot specific, and the next lot will not do this. It is common for different lots and particularly brass from different makers to "grow" differently when fired.

Another problem is that the original 445 brass was made from 444 Marlin brass and involved not only a sizing but a lathe turning operation as well. The 445 SM does not ahve any SAMMI specs and it may be that the reamer was ground to earlier specs that were based on the resized 444 M brass.

It would be interesting to research, but wouldn't change your situation, just tell you why it is, if it has any bearing at all. If I could be so bold, I wuld suggest neck sizing only so long as the brass chambers and ejects without problem. It could be that you would want to use necksized brass for range time and unfired brass for hunting. This way you get the benefit of long brass life and also have brass that funtions positively for hunting. The lonly thing worse than a click when you expect a bang would be a stuck case and no cleaning rod :shock:  

[MtJerry]

Thanks for the comments JHP45 - some good food for thought.  I will do some measuring tomorrow and get back to you.

In the meantime, here are some pictures ...

First, for those have not seen 445 sm before, a comparison shot ... Left to right ... 45ACp, 44mag, 445sm, and 45-70



The 300gr. Hornady group ... I even amazed myself with this one  

[JPH45]

Can't click on the links for some reason.

[ONE HOLE 4570]

GOOD REPORT

Those are the next 2 boolits on my list to try.
I believe that the brass swell is chamber related. When I reamed mine I did not see any meatle come off of the sides of the original 44 mag chamber so that is not a factor just an oversized chamber & bore. The web should not expand being solid brass & the reamed area of the chamber is tighter in mine. Therefore the rear portion of the brass ahead of theweb expandes.

Just neck size & shoot you have fire formed brass & there should be no more were on the brass than normal.

I agree when it won't eject then full lenth size & always check this area for seperation

good shootin

[MtJerry]

I can't seem to get my pics to work here.  If you want to see some, go here http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41251 and check out the post I made at another site I frequent.

[Mac11700]

Still can't veiw the pictures..if you already have them posted somewhere...right mouse click the picture..click copy image loacation..then when posting them here..click on the img butttom..right mouse click behind the after it...this is in the sticky on the top of the page here on posting pictures...

Maq

[MtJerry]

Still can't veiw the pictures..if you already have them posted somewhere...right mouse click the picture..click copy image loacation..then when posting them here..click on the img butttom..right mouse click behind the after it...this is in the sticky on the top of the page here on posting pictures...

Maq

That's what I did ... let me try again ...



Well .. that didn't work ...

[SmackFactor]

Hello All,
I saw this article a while ago and it seems that it might be related to the swelling problem some of you are having. It Might be a problem with dies as stated above, or,chamber size and the dies.
Here is the article. May help. Something to think about anyway.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm

Regards,
Jerry

[warf73]

Ditchdigger

MtJerry I used a 300 gr. XTP and 30 grs of 296 and it chrono'ed 1977 fps

I'm also using the same load and getting 1975fps very accurate load.

I to am getting case swelling in the super but my 44mag die cleans the swelling right up. The swelling is about .006" on my cases

Warf

[GrampaMike]

I got 1973 fps for the 300 gr with 30.0 gr of WW296, pretty close to Ditchdigger and Warf73.

I also got 2094 fps for the 265 gr with 31.5 gr of WW296.

This 445 Supermag is some cartridge.

[MtJerry]

This 445 Supermag is some cartridge.

Indeed it is ... I hate to admit it, but my 45-70 is not getting much shooting time lately ... and might become a safe queen.

[Ditchdigger]

My chamber is .010 over the size of the new brass,and the resized brass. It has room for the new brass to rattle back and forth sideways in the chamber. How many agree that the 300 gr. load at 1975 fps is easier on the shoulder than the 45 70 at the same speed and bullet weight?  The 265 gr. bullet should be enough for nearly any hunting situation.  Digger

[MtJerry]

My chamber is .010 over the size of the new brass,and the resized brass. It has room for the new brass to rattle back and forth sideways in the chamber.

Uggggg!  i didn't need to hear that ...

How many agree that the 300 gr. load at 1975 fps is easier on the shoulder than the 45 70 at the same speed and bullet weight?

AGREED!!!!!!!  Case closed !!

The 265 gr. bullet should be enough for nearly any hunting situation.

Agreed again .... I am in love with it  

[jeff223]

what about the pictures?

[lostchild]

This may be apples to oranges but I had a 10in. contender in .445 ( still kicking myself for letting it go ).  But I got my best accuracy with near max loads using 300gr bullets, cast or jacketed.  my best load was 30.5gr 296 under a 300gr bullet ( cast and xtp would shoot to the same poi ).  I tried lighter loads/bullets but didn't get good results.  I found my max by using the TC manual started at25gr 296 and went by .5 gr till cases got a little sticky primers well flattened but not completly flat then backed off till cases just slid out of the chamber.  when sizing I only sized enough to hold the bullet.  hope this helps.....lost

[jeff223]

thats what i do lostchild with my 445 contender.i have my dies set so they size down about one quarter of the length of the case.i was resizeing them about 3/4 the way down but with the straight walled cases i dont feel they need to be full length sized.

it seems that w296 is the powder of choice for this round.i also have found the max loads give the best accuracy.i shoot the 240gr jacketed bullets out of the 14inch barrel using 33.5 gr of the 296powder.the recoil is alittle stiff but not to bad at all.love the 445sm so far :mrgreen:

[MtJerry]

what about the pictures?

Sorry about the delay - I have been using picyard.com for most of my pic uploads and it seems they are having some issues.  

Here is a comparison picture - left to right are 45acp, 44mag, 445sm, 45-70

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/15358445_SM_001-med.jpg

300gr XTP group ...

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/15358445_SM_004-med.jpg

[jeff223]

very nice group you shot there.looks like the 445sm is a winner for you :toast:
and thanks for the pictures

[.308]

You're dang right it's a winner. That group @50 yds. with open sights, Ohhh yeah.   To me that's good shootin'.

[MtJerry]

It's all in the brass 308 ... it's all in the BRASS  :wink:

Actually, this barrel has been a screaming shooter ever since i started buying bullets sized .432.

I was shooting 1" groups at 50 yards with the factory sights when I first started shooting the right size bullets when it was just a 44mag.

[.308]

:wink:  
I gotta get offa my bee-hind and get to tinkering with my mold and see if she'll bump up a thou or two. Looks like those .430 Hornadys are shooters too.

[jeff223]

445 super mag = WOODS HAMMER :mrgreen: