Author Topic: 45-70 to 45-120 conversions questions (Read 1705 times)

gstanfield · « **on:** November 08, 2005, 12:54:23 PM »

Howdy all, I've been thinking of converting my BC into a 45-120 for a while now and am getting ready to take the plunge. I do have two questions for those who have done this or may know more about this than I do. Having not found the specs for the 45-120 I am wondering if it will be abel to shoot a 45-70 round safely in a 45-120 chamber as you can with a 44 special, 44 mag? I'm also wondering about chamber reamers. I see two listed on midwayusa, one for 45-120 and the other for 45-120 Shiloh-Sharps, and so I am left wondering about the differences in these two reamers? When it comes down to it I will most likely be renting a reamer from Shawnie Tool as they have given me good service in the past, but I have thought about buying my own therefore the question of which reamer do I want.

Thanks in advance for what I know will be good information,
George

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 08, 2005, 01:03:21 PM »

Can't really help ya on the reamer, mine was done by a smith who rented the reamer from http://www.reamerrentals.com/ and he did an excellent job on the bore, just not so good on the outside of the barrel surface. :evil:

You can shoot .45-70 cartridges in it, but you'll have a lot of cleaning to do and you're gonna take a big performance hit with the well over an inch of bullet jump. I choose not to, bought another BC barrel for that....plus I have 2 .45-70 Handis with 22" barrels for just that purpose. I asked my current smith, Wayne York of Oregunsmithing what his opinion was, he said it's safe and won't hurt anything, but asked if I really need to do it?

Ya got a brass source, yet??

gstanfield · « **Reply #2 on:** November 08, 2005, 01:22:19 PM »

Thanks for the information, that's the same place as I will be renting my reamer, just their other name :-) As to a source of brass for the 45-120 all I have found is 45 basic brass at midwayusa, but since I have so much 45-70 brass I figured I would use 45-70 for plinking, then when I finally get my Marlin 45-70 cowboy lever action I will still have the brass for it. I don't really see the need for a short barrel 45-70 handi at the moment as I have a 500 handi for when I want big bore performance in a shorter action gun.

So, if you don't mind my picking your brain a bit, what loads are working good for you in the 45-120 or are you using strictly BP in it? I will be using mostly BP, maybe pyrodex since I have a ton of it on hand, but would like some smokeless loads if there are any that work good in this caliber.

Thanks,
George

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 08, 2005, 03:02:00 PM »

George, I'm shooting XMP5744 for the most part, I have several loads using it and the 405gr rem, 405gr, 440gr and 460gr Cast Performance bullets and recently the 525gr Beartooth Piledriver. I tried 95grs Triple 7 and it shot good with a 500gr MPS bullet, but T7 costs just as much as smokeless but I need twice as much of it, so I quit that real quick! Hodgdon and Accurate both show smokeless loads for it as well as the Lyman 48th.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

http://accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/45%20120%20Sharps%20Straight%20page%20365.pdf

I got my brass direct from the owner of Bell Brass, Mast Technology, $180 per hundred shipped, but they're selling it for well over $230 now, IIRC...if they have any left. Track of the Wolf may have some as well as Buffalo Arms, at $2 each the last time I checked.

http://www.masttechnology.com/caseprices.htm

Feel free to ask more questions, it's a heck of a fun round and the looks ya get at the range are priceless!!

blx · « **Reply #4 on:** November 08, 2005, 03:25:39 PM »

whats the recoil like on the 120?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** November 08, 2005, 03:44:26 PM »

About like a 45-70, just depends on the bullet selection. It was originally intended for black powder, 65-70gr is about all you can get in a 45-70 case, the 45-120 will hold the better part of 120grs. But smokeless powder provides so much more energy that a 65gr load is about max for pressure, depending on the powder/bullet choice. A 60gr load of H4895 and the 500gr Lyman 457125 will net 1809fps out of a 24" barrel(Hodgdon 2004 Annual), don't know yet what that provides in a 32' barrel, but I'm working on it!!! That's my next powder of choice to utilize the long barrel of the BC. Recoil with heavy loads like this is gonna be in the 375H&H range and more!!

Cottonwood · « **Reply #6 on:** November 08, 2005, 04:53:52 PM »

The only benifit to having a 45-120 is for Black Powder loads... in smokeless there is nothing a 45-120 can do that a 45-70 can't.

Other facts about the 45-120 (3.25") cartridge it was never used during the great bison harvest of the late 1800's. Union Metalic did not bring this cartridge out until the early 1890's

The cost of your brass is gonna be steep vs 45-70 brass.

45x3 1/4" Bell Cases
@ ($2.50) Each
20 @ ($42.98)
50 @ ($103.00)
100 @ ($200.00)

Just isn't worth the coolness factor to me, sorry Tim, I know you had your BC reamed up to this, but the cartridge is not historic for the great harvest period.

Here are the historic cartridges in the 45 cal and 40 cal line up. I will have to send this picture to Mike Venturino to get the 40 cal line up cartridges.
1. 45-2.1 aka 45-70
2. 45-2.4 aka 45-90 few of these surfaced as a bison harvest cartridge as it was mainly a target round.
3. 45-2.6 aka 45-100
4. 40-90
5. 40-? bottleneck
6. 40-? " "
7. 40-? " "
8. 44-? " "

There is much more Single Shot information available in Mike Venturino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the West where he list all the cartridges used during the great buffalo harvest. He is not only a great writer but he shoots these old rifles as well.

Have a good one.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 08, 2005, 06:13:35 PM »

No need to be sorry, Jon since the historic value hasn't even been mentioned in this thread until you brought it up, I don't think it makes a bit of difference. I could care less about the historic value of the cartridge and that's pretty obvious since I don't load black powder in it. It's just an awesome looking cartridge and really turns heads at the range!! Plus I don't have to be concerned about loading large bullets in the short throated 45-70, something that is a bain to anyone who has tried it in a BC/Handi. :wink:

glock29 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:55:39 AM »

Why couldn't one pump up 45-120 cases with smokeless powder to say 45K-50K pressure in strong actions like is done all the time with the 45-70?
Would that not give one 458 Win to possibly 458 Lott performance in a rimmed cartridge for those that can handle the recoil ?
If this cannot be done, why not ?
I know for example the Handi-Rifle action can take 60K pressure, because that is the SAAMI spec for 500 S&W, which is now a production chambering in the Handi.
As a side note, if this action can take these high pressures, then why do they not offer "Real" Magnum rifle cartridges such as 300 Wby and 375 H&H ?

gstanfield · « **Reply #9 on:** November 09, 2005, 08:47:44 AM »

Thanks for the good info guys, and just so you know the historic value means nothing to me as I just want it for the cool factor, and for that it is worth the price of admission. I don't really care a whole lot about the power factor either as I don't think it will do much of anything that I can't already do with some of my other guns, but it will be fun to play with and look really cool. I guess this will be my project for thanksgiving weekend then, I'll try to get some pics posted when I finish it.

Tim, what sights have you settled on for your BC? I am not very impressed with the factory sights, and lack of range allowed, so anything letting me reach out farther will be welcome a ton.

Thanks,
George

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** November 09, 2005, 09:25:03 AM »

I use the Williams FP target sight available from either H&R or Midway and other places. It's good to beyond 500yds when the front .584" tall 17A sight is replaced with a .404" tall 17A sight. With the WGRS rear sight and the standard front sight, I was hitting 6" low at 50yds with the rear sight at the top of the ramp. Dodd3 had the same problem with his. He's also using the FP and lower front sight and is getting POI at beyond 500yds, so the FP target sight is good for a fair range. With the FP sight in the bottom position, POI is 1"-1½" high at 100yds depending on the load. Another option if you have good eyes is the Smith ladder sight, but for me, I wouldn't be able to use it in the close range position with it folded down so that would kinda eliminate it for hunting and the longest range I can shoot at is 300yds, so I don't really need it, although it would be cool looking.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4191.htm

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=572292

bajabill · « **Reply #11 on:** November 09, 2005, 09:43:27 AM »

my friend had this conversion done, then also bought another 45-70 BC barrel. To get started with the 45-120, he bought a box of loaded ammo. I will try and find the link to the maker. It was about $4 a round, so he figured he was paying about 1.50 per round for someone to make it for him. He is keeping the brass and will re-load from here.

http://www.ten-x.com/pages/PriceList.html

If I were wanting to shoot a lot of the heavy pills, I would seriously consider the 45-90 conversion. That would be a good compromise between bullet jump on the lighter weights in 45-70 and enough throat for long bullets in a 45-90. But, Im happy with the 45-70 config for now.

Glcok29, once I strip away all of the bravado, and get to the matter, you bring up a good point. I think the 450marlin really closed the book on the questions about 45-70 load level, and now the chamber diameter is even larger for a 500sw. Probably close the aft thrust from a common belted magnum (7mm, 300win, 338, 375HH etc.)

gstanfield · « **Reply #12 on:** November 09, 2005, 12:43:30 PM »

Thanks gents for all the ideas and suggestions. The reamers are on their way to me as I type and I should be finished with them by sometime next week. I'm really excited to start breaking bones in my shoulder :-) and the looks of my other gun friends will be priceless as they are into all those black plastic guns with the tiny cartridges :-D They thought my 338WM was a super huge monster, so they'll really die at the look of this 45-120. The cost of brass is not that bad really, not much worse than actualy quality brass from Norma that I buy for my target stuff. I'm expecti9ng that with BP loads the brass should last a long time. Am I gooing to need a new die set for this, or can I just "neck size" it with my 45-70 dies? I'm thinking that with the finely polished chamber I will have when i am done and the low pressure of BP loads that I should be able to get away without full length sizing, but if I can't then dies aren't that bad either.

Tim, I'll be ordering that FP sight and lower front ASAP, really was hoping to stretch this thing out to around 600-800yds, but I guess I'll settle with whatever I can get out of it and just use the 338 for long range stuff.

thanks,
George

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 09, 2005, 12:52:30 PM »

I've been using the Lyman 45-120 die set, haven't tried using the 45-70 dies, but I'm sure someone will answer that question for ya.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2005, 03:21:42 AM »

gstanfield

Your case pressures with smokeless loadings are not going to be all that bad... :grin:

I think if you index your cases, you should be fine... in other words find a spot on the head stamp that will be your 12 O'clock position. Fire one for fire-forming to the chamber.

And yes you can use your 45-70 dies for neck sizing and expanding and crimping your bullets with should you desire to crimp them.

gstanfield · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2005, 02:05:47 PM »

Well fokls, I reamed the chamber at lunch today at work. It took all of about 10 minutes and I'll have to brag about the quality f the chamber reamers from those guys (reamerrentals.com) it was a perfect reamer, sharp, true, clean, and it cut wonderfully. I would not hesitate to deal with them again, as a matter of fact I am thinking of renting a 22Khornet and improving the gusto of my 22hornet handi. I'm also thinking about a 25-06 handi and rechambering to a 25-284 wildcat, which I hope to have completed by Christmas. I have orderd the lower front sight and the target model rear sight with the adjustment knobs instead of needing a screwdriver jsut to adjust my sights. I also ordered 20 rounds of 45 brass and hopefully I will be out testing the thing next week over my thanksgiving holiday.

thanks for all the advice and suggestions, I'm going to post another thread about my latest wild idea.

thanks,
George

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2005, 02:38:00 PM »

Range report required!!! :wink:

I don't think that will work, the 25-284 won't clean up the longer 25-06 chamber...In a bolt gun you could set the barrel back, but not in a Handi...

Datil · « **Reply #17 on:** November 17, 2005, 02:48:08 PM »

George, It will not work a 25-06 to 25-284, the 25-06 case is longer
than 25-284 There fore 25- 284 will not clean up a 25-06 chamber.
check case length on the case. Hope this helps before you start.
Marv.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2005, 02:53:43 PM »

Hmmm, seems to be an echo in here!!!

:-D :-D :-D

Datil · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2005, 03:09:54 PM »

Sorry Quickdtoo, didn't see your post till I posted For give for that one.
Marv.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2005, 03:21:56 PM »

Not a problem, Marv, I gotta pick on ya whenever I can, don't get much chance!!!! :wink:

gstanfield · « **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2005, 12:20:26 PM »

I had realised that right after I posted it, forgot to go back in and edit.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the 45-120 is looking sweet. I got in the new front sight and 20 empty cases. I have some 500gr LEE pointed long range projectilescooling off ready to be loaded tomorrow. Hopefully I will get to the range sometime this weekend. I also recived the new rear sight, but it does not work very well. It is very stiff to turn (yes, I followed the directions :grin: ) and I will probably have to send it back to Midway, but they are good about customer service so I'm not worried.

I'll be sure to post some range results as soon as I can get myself out there and shoot.

George

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2005, 12:37:45 PM »

George, as I recollect, I had to clean my FP target sight with WD40 when I got it and also had to back the set screws out farther than I originally thought to turn the adjustment knobs. I think some thumb screws would be nice to replace the little set screws with, so no tools are needed. :wink:

gstanfield · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2005, 05:16:46 AM »

So far I took the screws out completely and used some rem-oil on everything. The up and down side works fine, but the windage adjustment is not very friendly. I'll toy with it a bit more before sending it back. I'm still trying to figure out what the benefit of having thumb screws on the adjustments are going to be if the set screws still require a screwdriver? I thought by buying the target bmodel with it's thumbscrews I wouldn't have to use a screwdriver, but once again I was wrong :oops:

Thanks,
George